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To: pillbox_girl
That the Norse explored the North American mainland is a given. We have clear archeologic evidence of their presence in Newfoundland, and written accounts of mainland explorations (grapes do not grow in Newfoundland, but are central to the sagas).
The grape problem may not be as bad as it looks, regarding Newfoundland, because the medieval warming was in full swing then. The Scandinavian explosion across Europe (Varangians, Vikings, Normans, the short-lived Viking kingdom in Sicily) was made possible by the warm weather. Medieval farmsteads (now abandoned) existed at higher latitudes and altitudes than are possible today.

That said, I've read that the Vatican preserves records of a "Bishop of Vinland"; supposedly Verrazano's expedition landed at what is now Newport Rhode Island and found the famous (or infamous) Newport Round Tower already standing, referring to it as a "Norman Tower". If so, it's an odd note to make if one is trying to stake out a claim to land.
The possibility that they might have introduced a stable population of horses that survived them is a lot more dubious. The environment and climate of northeast America at the time was either frozen tundra or heavily forested, neither of which are environs suitable for exploting horses. This is especially true at the beginning of the second millenium when the northern hemisphere was entering a miniature ice age...
The "Little Ice Age" didn't kick in until early in the 13th century. IMHO it is indeed what spelled the end of the Greenland colony, and probably led to the evacuation (or absorption, or extinction) of the Vinland colony. Also, with the Norse horse being from Iceland, I don't see a problem with the climate, particularly for a population further down what is now the eastern seaboard, and the temperature being warmer, not colder.

The nice aspect to this question is, there are living populations of all these horses, such that the nuclear DNA can be examined in an attempt to sort it out.
Maine Coon Cat (Straight Dope Mailbag)
Straight Dope Science Advisory Board ^ | 29-Jun-1999 | SDSTAFF Jill

Posted on 08/05/2004 11:19:14 PM PDT by SunkenCiv

One of the oldest breeds of cats in North America is the Maine Coon Cat, and some say 40% of the originals had extra toes. One article said it evolved as a "snowshoe foot" to help these cats walk in the snow. Cute story, but probably [expletive deleted] ...The breed closest to the Maine Coon Cat is the Norwegian Forest Cat which evolved in the same climate and lends credence to one theory that ancestors of the Coon Cat may have even come to the New World onboard Viking ships. I like that theory best.

(Excerpt) Read more at straightdope.com ...


43 posted on 11/30/2005 11:20:19 AM PST by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated my FR profile on Wednesday, November 2, 2005.)
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To: SunkenCiv
The grape problem may not be as bad as it looks, regarding Newfoundland, because the medieval warming was in full swing then.

There really is no "grape problem". Grapes do not grow in Newfoundland, and fossil pollen counts clearly show they haven't for several thousand years, if ever. However, grapes do grow commonly in coastal New England and in particular a tree climbing variety exactly as described in the sagas. For a people who had sailed across the Atlantic without sextant or compass, the trip from Newfoundland to New England is a short hop (obscure Vinland Saga pun fully intended). From other evidence in the sagas, it is clear that, while the Norse were definately in Newfoundland, Newfoundland was not Vinland. The real location of Vinland is probably somewhere around Pasamaquoddy bay in Maine.

I've read that the Vatican preserves records of a "Bishop of Vinland"

The Vatican hierarchy is full of various empty bishoprics. They were useful to Popes with political ambitions as appointments for their supporters. The Bishop of Gardar was a position held in the Vatican long after the failure of the Greenland colonies. They'd probably have appointed someone to be the Bishop of the Moon if they thought they could get away with it.

supposedly Verrazano's expedition landed at what is now Newport Rhode Island and found the famous (or infamous) Newport Round Tower already standing, referring to it as a "Norman Tower".

The so-called Norse Tower (or Norman Tower) in Rhode Island has been definitely proven to be a late seventeenth century colonial structure. The idea that it is of Norse origin comes from a single hoax runestone "discovered" in 1946. Before then, it was known to have been built by governor of the colony who, incidentally, happened to be the grandfather (or great grandfather) of the infamous Benedict Arnold.

IMHO it is indeed what spelled the end of the Greenland colony, and probably led to the evacuation (or absorption, or extinction) of the Vinland colony.

From the sagas themselves, it is clear the Vinland attempt failed because of contact with the local numerous indigenous population, and not because of the weather. These were the so-called "skraelings", and were natives most likely of the Dorsett or Wabanaki. The Norse didn't have the numbers or the technological advantages of the later Spanish. They were also looking for land, not gold, and didn't have the backing of a well organized and politically ambitious government behind them like the Spaniards.

The issue of the Maine Coon cat you mention is an interesting one. It is known that the Norse kept cats on their ships to reduce the rodent population, and it is highly likely their trips to North America would have included cats. It is also highly likely that these cats would not have remained on board the ships once landfall was made. Forested New England had an environment that was eminently suited to the cat's needs, and therefore the possibility that the Maine Coon cat descended from Norse strays is a plausability. And hopefully someone out there is still reading this thread with access to some Viking Kitties images.

That the Norse would also have brought horses with them to North America and left a population behind is less likely. They would have had little cause to bring horses along with them on what were, essentially, voyages of exploration and not colonization. Space for horses and fodder would have been better used for supplies for humans. And why would the Greenlanders have risked any of their scarce and valuable horses on a journey intended more for research than exploitation? To the best of my knowledge, there has yet to be found any evidence of even cattle at Lancy Meadows, the confirmed Norse site on Newfoundland, much less horses.

Unlike cats, horses would have found the environment of coastal New England very unsuitable. Also unlike cats, the Norse would not have let such a valuable resourse as a horse escape from them, even if they had brought any with them. Escaped Cats are small enough to have avoided the attentions of the local native population, but not horses. The local native population based their transportation on canoes and foot travel, and would have found horses to be useless for anything other than meat. So unlike cats, it is highly unlikely that the Norse could have been a pre-columbian source for the reintroduction of horses into North America. In Greenland, we know the cats survived after the Norse all vanished, but the horses did not.

The nice aspect to this question is, there are living populations of all these horses, such that the nuclear DNA can be examined in an attempt to sort it out.

Several studies of the mitochondrial DNA of modern horses have shown North America's horses to be of modern European and Asian descent. Where possible, purebred Native American stocks have been shown to have descended from Spanish stocks, though admittedly there is a lot of noise in the sample since native breeding programs were concerned with the quality of the horses and not with preserving any particular bloodline.

Most importantly to this discussion, a comparison was made between mitochondrial DNA of modern North American horses and that of Equus lambei (the last species of modern horse found in North America before its extinction 11,000 years ago). It determined that modern domestic horses and Equus lambei are, in fact, genetically the same species. However, it also determined that modern horses are not themselves directly descended from Equus lambei.

I don't know if anyone has bothered to check out the DNA of the cats.

55 posted on 11/30/2005 11:10:33 PM PST by pillbox_girl
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