Posted on 05/19/2006 8:22:52 AM PDT by steelersfan
I would be absolutely terrified that my God was so shallow that my eternal damnation depended on a 2&1/2 hour movie.
No problem. I sometimes get replies several months later with the poster assuming I know what they are talking about.
No - I would not put my 5 year old son on trial. 1)he has not yet reached the age of "reason" where he can be held culpable for his actions and 2)it was an "accident". And, if someone died as a result: see 1) and 2) above.
However, the point is these are laws and doctrine of man, not God. Thus, your logic is flawed and not in proper context. As many others have stated clearly in this thread... man is born into sin. You are sinful whether you like it or not, regardless of your ability to reason and regardless of your knowledge of right and wrong. Unless and until you acknowledge this and repent of your sins, accept Jesus Christ as your Saviour and receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit - you are not saved from sin.
Now, having said that - I neither mean to prosthelyze nor insult your intelligence. I simply felt inclined to try and put the matter into the context of a born again Christian thinker.
As a footnote: I read the book twice and saw the movie last night. I found the book to be quite intriguing and the movie to be an excellent portrayal of the book. I was very suspect of casting Tom Hanks as Robert Langdon, but he pulled it off well in my opinion. I did have problems at times understanding the actress playing Sophie... All in all, I think it's a great piece of fiction. What makes it so good is that it is 'plausible'. This, I think, is what has so many people disconcerted. After all, haven't we always generally believed that the Catholic Church is hiding something from the world? Don't the Mason's put a great deal of energy into symbolism? What's with Da Vinci painting "John" to look like a woman anyway? Is it not true that Constantine presided over the compilation of the first Christian Bible???
BTW - if you liked the story, I recommend you read "The Secret Supper" by Javier Sierra. DISCLAIMER: Recommended book is not for those persons who are weak in their faith. Recommender expressly disclaims intent to blasphemy or spread sacrilege, but merely to refer others to a source of stimulating entertainment. ;-)
Sue - this isn't really accurate. The story contends that Christ married Magdalene and bore offspring. And, further, the bloodline continues to exist to this day and the Catholic Church is hiding this because the knowledge would cause the Catholic Church, as it stands now, to lose all it's power - since there would be a living king or queen of Christianity, so to speak. Thus, no need for a Pope, Cardinals, Bishops, etc.
At no point does the story deny Christ's divinity (although it surely does not come right out and support it either). Neither does it claim the crucifixion was faked and that He ran off with Magdalene.
Thank you for the reply. Now, in this hypothetical, would you say the 5 year old had sinned in his actions?
However, the point is these are laws and doctrine of man, not God. Thus, your logic is flawed and not in proper context.
I am attempting to draw a comparison. I recognize that there are differences, but you can not simply wave your hands, say "this is about God's law" and refuse to consider the question at hand.
Is God more understanding or less understanding than man is? To even ask the question shows how silly it is.
If man and his attempts to provide justice in the world can recognize that a minor child has no capacity to "reason" and suffers no culpability for his actions, why would you hypothesize that God is incapable or unwilling to do the same?
Can someone explain this to me?
Are you so determined to make the point that all men sin and are in need of a savior that you must run roughshod over logic and reason?
I don't believe God sees the unreasoned activities of a toddler and assigns guilt to the child's soul. The child will sin soon enough of his own volition. There is no need to make a monster of God.
SD
Thank you.
All this hand-wringing and moral outrage is only causing... guess what?
MORE PUBLICITY!
If man and his attempts to provide justice in the world can recognize that a minor child has no capacity to "reason" and suffers no culpability for his actions, why would you hypothesize that God is incapable or unwilling to do the same? Can someone explain this to me? Are you so determined to make the point that all men sin and are in need of a savior that you must run roughshod over logic and reason?
My hypothesis is scripturally founded, as least as doctrinally interpreted within my faith and most all Christian denominations. It's actually quite clear and the very foundation of faith: man is sinful - only through Christ is he redeemed. Whether or not my 5 year old child committed an act that as an adult would be considered a crime or a sin is not really relevant - more plainly stated: my 5 year child is sinful by nature, culpable or not.
As far as trying to relate God's understanding and compassion to man's... Well, in Old Testament times, God led the armies of Isreal through wholesale slaughter of entire cities. Men, women, children, livestock...... laying waste to everything. So, I do believe He is a vengeful God.
May I ask what your faith is, only to better understand your perspective - certainly not to attack it (ok - maybe debate it a little bit ;-)
Man is born with the inclination to sin, but one is not guilty of sin until one actually sins. If you can recognize that a 5 year old has no capacity to know right from wrong, then you can recognize that he is not guilty of sin.
If we are damned and in need of salvation, it is because we chose one day to do something we knew was wrong. Not because God made us that way.
Before children can reason, they can not sin.
Do you believe infants and toddlers go to hell?
I am Catholic. I reject categorically the notion that people are condemned to hell without choosing to sin.
SD
No, I don't Dave. I do believe they are born into sin as a result of man falling from grace. I do believe they will be judged just as everyone else. I believe they will be found 'not guilty' if in His judgment they were not yet of an age to acknowledge Jesus Christ and seek his redemption.
I am Baptist and, probably rather apparently, lean toward Evangelicalism. I confess ignorance of Catholicism, at least to the extent that I can speak intelligently of it. I understand, and incidentally disagree with, the basic structure and such.
In any event, thanks for the stimulating exchange. God Bless.
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