A Mathematician's View of Evolution

The Mathematical Intelligencer ^ | Granville Sewell

[ahayes]

I think in everything the truth is preferable to a lie.

[Tribune7]

And it is of course, but what's more important knowing whether God exists or the age of the Earth?

[ahayes]

Clarification, since a friend and I hashed out the groundworks of this a year or two ago: In everything the truth is preferable to a lie unless the truth is being told to a person whom it will hurt grievously and who is cognitively unable to process and come to terms with this truth. So if an elderly woman has Alzheimer's and forgets her husband has died, it's permissable not to continue to remind her every day that he's dead when she asks where he is and thus make every day of the rest of her life miserable.

But in general, the truth is preferable.

[ahayes]

Why do you ask that as if one must choose one or the other?

[Tribune7]

What I'm asking concerns priorities, not a rejection of a belief. I think it quite possible to believe in God and be a true Christian while believing in an old earth and evolution.

This line of debate began when Vade appeared to dismiss the spiritual/eternal as unimportant compared to material investigations. I think that is quite wrong.

[ahayes]

That's good, it seems a lot of YEC think believing in God requires believing in a young earth creation, and thinking evolution has happened immediately means you can't properly believe in God. I used to tell them that they'd better be careful or they'd convince me God did not exist with their insistency, but it ended up that happened differently.

[VadeRetro]

Exactly - no pattern - just random.

Nope. Any predator exerts selection pressure on a prey population. It's definitely non-random. Predators always take the easy meal rather than risk going hungry. The pressure on the prey population is to not be the easy meal. There's a competition to be better at hiding, running, or otherwise evading. Losing is death. The winners dominate the gene pool.

[Tribune7]

Atheism is pretty pointless. I hope you find a way back to your faith.

[ahayes]

Who said I'm atheist?

[Dimensio]

Natural Selection is not driving the hawk therefore Natural Selection is an observation of many points of data, not a force or structure.

Natural selection is the end-result of the actions of the hawk. You are asserting that a pattern requires a deliberate process. You are simply wrong.

Natural selection is not 'an observation of many points of data'. Natural selection would occur even with no individuals observing and recording the events.

IF you think Natural Selection follows a pattern - state the pattern - although I am not too optimistic you will actually try.

The pattern has been stated. You have attempted to dismiss the stated pattern by claiming that the pattern was not the result of deliberate action to fit a pattern. There is no basis for your restriction, however, so your dismissal is faulty.

[Dimensio]

Atheism is pretty pointless.

From the standpoint of an atheist, it is no more "pointless" than any religious belief.

[Tribune7]

I used to tell them that they'd better be careful or they'd convince me God did not exist with their insistency, but it ended up that happened differently.

I thought that's what you were saying here.

[Tribune7]

Good! We have agreement that atheism is a religious belief!

[Dimensio]

Good! We have agreement that atheism is a religious belief!

I did not say that atheism is a religious belief.

[Tribune7]

You think religious beliefs are pointless?

[Dimensio]

You think religious beliefs are pointless?

I did not say that either.

[Tribune7]

You seemed to be saying that atheism fills the same need (or fails to fill the same need) as any religous belief.

[Dimensio]

You seemed to be saying that atheism fills the same need (or fails to fill the same need) as any religous belief.

I believe that I chose my previous wording poorly. I spoke of "religious belief", when I should have spoken of "theistic religious belief" so as not to include religious belief compatable with atheism (such as some variants of Buddhism).

From the standpoint of an atheist, all theistic religion -- being false -- is 'pointless'. As such -- from that standpoint -- nothing more is gained or accomplished from belief in a deity or deities than is gained from lacking such belief.

[Tribune7]

OK. And my point is that any belief is pointless which declares everything to be an accident and that only what can be measured is what exist.

[ahayes]

Being pretty sure that the Judeo-Christian God as I think of him does not exist isn't the same as stating certainty that no God exists at all.

Additionally, your opinion of the pointlessness of a certain point of view is just that, your opinion. I doubt those who are atheists would agree with you that being atheist makes their existence pointless.