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Men face rape charge threat unless they can show consent of drunk women
Daily Mail - UK ^ | Oct 15th, 2006 | KIRSTY WALKER

Posted on 10/16/2006 8:38:19 AM PDT by ConservativeMind

Men who have sex with women who are not fully sober risk being found guilty of rape unless they have their consent, under controversial new proposals.

Ministers want to close a legal loophole which means that thousands of cases fail to reach the courts because victims have been drinking.

At present, women are deemed to be capable of consenting to sex as long as they are not so drunk that they are unconscious.

But under the new plans, which could be unveiled as early as next month, juries will be given the power to decide whether a woman was sober enough to know what she was doing.

The initiative follows concerns about a link between the growing problem of binge drinking and allegations of rape.

Solicitor General Mike O'Brien believes the law needs to be changed to make it easier to jail rapists who deliberately get their victims drunk.

The Metropolitan Police say one in three women who claim they have been raped have been drinking. In many case, police advise women to drop the complaint because they stand little chance of being believed in court.

Fewer than six per cent of rape allegations end in successful convictions.

Under the new plans, the legal definition of consent could be rewritten to make clear that women who are drunk could not have agreed to sex.

It raises the possibility that even if a woman agreed to sex while drunk, a jury could decide she was too inebriated to give meaningful consent.

This places a heavy burden of responsibility on men to ensure that a woman is fully conscious of her actions and has agreed to make love.

Earlier this year, a judge threw throw out a rape case in which the alleged victim was too drunk to remember what happened.

In an interview with the Sunday Times, Mr O'Brien said: "In non-stranger rapes, the issue is usually one of consent. There are usually two people involved, one of whom will deny consent and the other who will insist that consent was given.

"The issue becomes particularly difficult when there is alcohol involved. What we have to do is to find ways of ensuring that when a rape occurs, the rapist is convicted, but that we don't create miscarriages of justice."

Mr O'Brien is also looking at plans to show juries video footage of victims giving their first interview to police often hours after the alleged attack has taken place.

It follows concern that some juries have been taken by surprise by the lack of emotion shown by women in the witness box when the give evidence.

He said: "Women are individuals and react in different ways."

Police recorded 14,449 allegations of rape last year, one of the highest figures so far. Only one in 19 men were convicted.

Earlier this year, a rape trial collapsed when a female student from Aberystwyth University admitted she had been so drunk that she could not remember if she had refused or given consent for sex.

In the case at Swansea Crown Court, the judge ruled that 'drunken consent is still consent' - and instructed the jury to return a 'not guilty' verdict, even if they did not agree.

Opponents of the new proposals fear that they will create a legal minefield and may encourage some women to make allegations of rape when they regret having had sex while drunk.

George McAuley, chairman of the UK Men's Movement, said men may have to resort to obtaining written 'contracts' or using their mobile phones to film their partners consenting to sex.

He said: "Radical feminists within the Labour party have made consensual heterosexual sex a dangerous minefield. The changes in legislation will increase the number of innocent men convicted of rape.

"It means men will have to get a consent form signed, dated and countersigned in triplicate before they make love.

"This legislation is deliberately designed to put more men behind bars."


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KEYWORDS: moralabsolutes
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I don't really have a problem with this. It would very likely reduce rape.

How do you make sure your girl gave consent? Get married or get consent while your girlfriend is sober.

But I prefer the "getting married" option.

1 posted on 10/16/2006 8:38:20 AM PDT by ConservativeMind
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To: ConservativeMind

Oh baby, you're really hot.. but, would you mind signing this Sex Consent form first?


2 posted on 10/16/2006 8:42:05 AM PDT by Trampled by Lambs (Ok, so changing my name was not such a good idea after all...)
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To: ConservativeMind

Candy is dandy but liquor is quicker.
Ogden Nash


3 posted on 10/16/2006 8:43:09 AM PDT by HuntsvilleTxVeteran ("Remember the Alamo, Goliad and WACO, It is Time for a new San Jacinto")
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To: ConservativeMind

Perhaps, but this is just another slide down the slope of women not being responsible for ANYTHING they do that involves sex.

Where are the feminists outraged over this treatment of women as children?


4 posted on 10/16/2006 8:43:23 AM PDT by Philistone
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To: ConservativeMind

What about women who have sex with drunk men? Can they be accused of rape, too, unless they had obtained written consent? If both were drunk, are both guilty of rape?


5 posted on 10/16/2006 8:43:45 AM PDT by cartan
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To: ConservativeMind
As I read it, even getting married would not be enough.

It occurs to me that the only way to prove consent beyond doubt is to have a witness present, or to video-tape the event ...

6 posted on 10/16/2006 8:44:35 AM PDT by Mrs Ivan (English, and damned proud of it.)
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To: ConservativeMind

If both the man and women have been drinking, how do you establish who is the rapist and who is the rapee?


7 posted on 10/16/2006 8:44:45 AM PDT by joebuck
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To: ConservativeMind

> It would very likely reduce rape.

No, it would very likely increase rape. It is redefining certain (currently legal) behaviors as rape.


8 posted on 10/16/2006 8:44:52 AM PDT by krb (If you're not outraged, people probably like having you around.)
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To: ConservativeMind

Legislating incentives for sexually promiscious males to go gay?


9 posted on 10/16/2006 8:45:30 AM PDT by Uncledave
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To: Trampled by Lambs

Oh baby, you're really hot.. but, would you mind signing this Sex Consent form first?
_________________________________________________

ROFL, then it would be argued that she was too drunk to sign the consent.

I have a better idea. The woman "blows" into sobriety test with a pass/fail. If she sucks into the machine, then offer to marry her.


Give me a break, it was a joke before the fem flames start.


10 posted on 10/16/2006 8:46:50 AM PDT by MadeInAmerica (- If ILLEGAL means Undocumented - Then Breaking and Entering means Unannounced Visit)
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To: ConservativeMind

So, is a consent form signed, while the woman is drunk, legally binding?

If she's too drunk to know whether or not she has been raped, then how is she not to drunk to know what the heck she is signing?

I see a big loop hole in this proposed law.


11 posted on 10/16/2006 8:47:13 AM PDT by Bigh4u2 (Denial is the first requirement to be a liberal)
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To: HuntsvilleTxVeteran

Lips that touch liquor shall never touch mine.


12 posted on 10/16/2006 8:47:14 AM PDT by ichabod1 (Face it, every empire comes to an end, and ours is on the down hill slope.)
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To: Trampled by Lambs

Don't forget to document the breath-a-lizer test as well....

OTOH, who would *want* to have sex with a drunk?
(shudder)

Blech


13 posted on 10/16/2006 8:47:23 AM PDT by ASOC (The phrase "What if" or "If only" are for children.)
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To: Mrs Ivan

> It occurs to me that the only way to prove consent beyond doubt is to have a witness present, or to video-tape the event ...



The article says that even that is not consent. The new proposed changes dictate that no drunk woman can give consent. So if you have a witness or video tape, all you've done is gathered evidence against the guy.

I think you'd need a witness or tape of the woman declaring her intention, before touching alcohol,
to have a few drinks then to go have sex.


14 posted on 10/16/2006 8:47:33 AM PDT by krb (If you're not outraged, people probably like having you around.)
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To: Trampled by Lambs
Oh baby, you're really hot.. but, would you mind signing this Sex Consent form first?

Any joke involving a Breathalyzer in my pants would probably get my banned from FR.

15 posted on 10/16/2006 8:47:38 AM PDT by KarlInOhio (I fear that we are the RINOs. The real Republican party is the big government Dem-lite party.)
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To: Trampled by Lambs
Oh baby, you're really hot.. but, would you mind signing this Sex Consent form first?

Just don't go on a date where alcohol is involved. Probably good policy, law or not.

OTOH, men will occasionally still get into trouble even if they didn't do anything wrong, and that's in the US where we supposedly (but don't really) have this concept of innocent until proven guilty.

I guess the only really safe thing to do is remain single and not date. But that isn't any good either so I really don't know what's to be done.
16 posted on 10/16/2006 8:47:38 AM PDT by JamesP81 (The answer always lies with more freedom; not less)
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To: Trampled by Lambs
Oh baby, you're really hot.. but, would you mind signing this Sex Consent form first?

As much as it could possibly lead to such silliness, even a written and signed consent form wouldn't hold up in court as valid since the signature was obtained when the person was not in full possession of their faculties at the time.

Personally, I've never engaged in lacivious conduct while enibriated. I always worried I'd wake up next to something that looked like this:


17 posted on 10/16/2006 8:48:05 AM PDT by Prime Choice (True Conservatives don't vote for Liberals just because they have an 'R' by their name.)
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To: ConservativeMind

HAhaHAhaHA! Ah, the joys of being a British subject!


18 posted on 10/16/2006 8:48:13 AM PDT by D.P.Roberts
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To: ichabod1
That knocks out all women that partake in the Lords Supper.
19 posted on 10/16/2006 8:49:54 AM PDT by HuntsvilleTxVeteran ("Remember the Alamo, Goliad and WACO, It is Time for a new San Jacinto")
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To: ConservativeMind

I mean, really. Have you ever seen an Englishman? Some of these guys are never gonna get laid now.


20 posted on 10/16/2006 8:49:54 AM PDT by D.P.Roberts
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