Question to Birthers about Grandma Dunham's Alleged Fraud

Vanity

[curiosity]

One of the reasons birthers demand to see Obama's long-form birth certificate (as opposed to the short form already released) is that only the long-form lists the hospital.

Why is the hospital important? Well, birthers claim that if his birth was registered as having taken place at home, then it opens up the possibility that his birth was registered fraudulantly. That is, if he were born in Kenya, his grandma could have gone down to the local registrar, committed perjury by swearing she whitnessed his birth at home in Hawaii, and obtained a birth certificate saying he was born in Hawaii.

Now why would Grandma Dunham do such a thing? Well, birthers say in order to secure US citizenship for her grandson. They correctly point out that Mama Obama was too young to pass on US citizenship to her son automatically had he been born abroad. Therefore, birthers argue, to make sure Bambi got the benefits of US citizenship, Granny risked her freedom and career and committed perjury on his behalf.

There's a gaping hole in this story which birthers have yet to address: the fraud was unnecessary.

While it's true Obama would not be born a US citizen had be been born in Kenya, under section 101 and Title II section 205 of the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952, in effect at the time, as the minor child of a US citizen, Obama was entitled to a non-quota immigrant visa to enter the US.

Once back in the states, under Title III, section 322 Bambi would be eligible for natuarlization.

So you see, even if Obama were born in Kenya, it was possible to secure his citizenship through perfectly legal means. And no, it was not uncertain because the law explicitly presumed a child of "tender years" would be of good moral character. There were simply no grounds under the law to deny him citizenship once his mother petitioned for it on his behalf.

Yes, it probably would have taken some time for the government to precess the paperwork, maybe a couple years, but who cares? While waiting, Barry would be a permanent resident living in Hawaii with his mom, eligible for virtually all the rights and benefits that go with US citizenship.

So help me out, birthers. If there was no need to fraudulantly register Bambi's birth in Hawaii, what was Grandma Dunham's motive?

A few birthers have said it was to avoid the hassle of naturalization. Okay, let's take that as given.

So Stanely drops Barry in Kenya and sends a wire to grandma, who goes to the local registrar and, after committing perjury, gets a US birth certificate for her grandson. She then sends it to her daughter Kenya by whatever expensive means were available at the time. Great. Now what?

How does that help little Barry? He's still in Kenya and has no papers that would get him admitted to the US. A birth certificate doesn't help. He needs a passport or visa. He can't use the birth certificate for that, either, because a child born in the USA needs to apply for his passport before leaving the country, not afterward. Attempting to use it for this purpose at the US consolate in Kenya would have triggered an investigation and likely uncovered granny's fraud.

So tell me, birthers, what exactly did Grandma Dunham accomplish by committing perjury?

Now compare that to the legal way. Stanley drops litttle barry. She takes her passport and his birth certificate to the US consolate, and obtains a Declaration of Birth of a Child to a US Citizen Abroad. With that document she can get him a non-quota immigrant visa and enter the US without any trouble.

Seems to me the legal way would have involved much less hassle and stress.

So help me out, birthers. What am I missing?

[Non-Sequitur]

could you give us a cite for that?

Link

According to Article 2, Section 1(a) an foreign child had to be younger than 5 in order to gain citizenship through the adoption process. Even if such an adoption had happened, Obama was 5 or 6 when Soetoro took the family back to Indonesia. Obama would have had to wait until he was 18 and be naturalized in order to get Indonesian citizenship.

[curiosity]

Why fool with naturalization papers when it would have been so easy to get an original birth certificate and fudge the facts??

Because the doing the latter would require committing felony perjury, whereas the former was perfectly legal and straightforward.

People generally don't commit crimes when there's nothing to gain from them.

I didn't say there was no reason to bother with naturalization. The question is why fool with it when you could get a birth certificate so easily?

First of all, you have no evidence that it was easy. Second of all, it would have required committing felony perjury, which then opens up the possibility of prosecution and prison time.

Why would an educated woman risk prison to obatin something she could otherwise get legally?

We don't know that he wasn't on her passport

If he was born abroad, then he couldn't be on her passport. Or are you seriously suggesting the state department allowed pregnant mothers to add their babies before they were born?

or that he could have been added as born abroad.

Not with a US birth certificate. A child born in the USA needs to either get a passport or be added to his mothers passport before he leaves.

So far, you've shown nothing to indicate what the rules really were when Obama was born,

Yes I have. I've cited the relevant sections of the 1955 immigration and nationality act. Have you even bothered to read them?

and we know there are no records of how Obama traveled, such as when he went to Indonesia and returned.

And how is this relevant to his eligbility?

Fantasy world?? I just listed several things SAD did that weren't comletely honest

No you haven't. Just name one.

Nonsense. Barak Sr. had two known addresses when he was in college. Neither matches the address in the newspaper announcements.

Gee. Maybe that's because he moved after he was married? You think?

There's no proof he ever lived at that address.

There's not proof he didn't. Besides, what would he possibly have to gain by lying about his address? Again, you're assuming he's guilty until proven innocent.

I can't speculate on motive.

In other words, you have no plausible explanation why a couple that was never married would bother getting divorced.

And as is typical of birthers, you allege a crime took place even though there is no plausible reason why anyone would commit such a crime.

Let me give you a hint. If you want to prove someone committed a crime, the first thing you have to do is prove the suspect had a motive. There's a reason prosecutors spend considerable effort to prove motive of a suspect, and if they can't they either drop the case or it gets dismissed.

The fact remains that she lived in a different state than he did during the time in which she claimed they were married.

It's called a trial separation. Couples often do it before they get divorced. While I don't approve of the practice, there's nothing dishonest about it.

Again, why in the world would a couple bother getting divorced if they were never married in the first palce?

U.S citizenship for her child. Now you seem to forget that.

And you seem to forget the fact that she could have obtained that through perfectly legal means, i.e. naturalization.

The reason was to get certain U.S. citizenship. Why do you keep forgetting??

And you keep forgetting that she could get that through perfectly legal means of naturalization.

Granny could easily mail a completed birth certificate to SAD and she uses it however she needs to use it.

And how does she use it, exactly? You seem to be forgetting that a US birth certificate can't be used to obatin new travel documents abroad. A child born in the USA must get his passport, or be put on his mother's passport, before going abroad.

So again, I ask you: how does the fraudulant birth certificate help SAD get Bambi back into the US?

[SirJohnBarleycorn]

According to his school registration in Indonesia, Obama was born on August 4, 1961 in Honolulu and at the time of registration was a citizen of Indonesia. His surname is listed as "Soetoro," not Obama and not Dunham. (And by the way, this statement as to his place of birth is one of the circumstances pointing to that he was indeed born in Hawaii, as I suggested in my earlier post.)

Did they lie on the school registration form as to whether Barry was a citizen of Indonesia? Did they lie as to whether his name was really Soetoro? Maybe. Or maybe not.

Given the fact of the statments made on this school registration, an unbiased person would, to my mind, need to seriously consider the possibility that all of the statements on the school registration are in fact correct. In fact, considering all of the circumstances we know of, I think it likely that they are.

I think it quite possible, even likely, that Lolo Soetoro adopted Barry either in Hawaii at the time of his marriage to Ann or later by acknowledgement to the Indonesian authorities.

This may well have been part of the deal when Ann married Lolo, that he would also become a father to Barry.

From all that has come out so far about Ann and Obama Sr's relationship, a case of abandonment by Obama Sr. would appear to have been a slam dunk, so his consent would not have been necessary to the adoption. And if any such form was sent to him, he might well have ignored it, as he appeared to ignore for several years the entire fact of his marriage to Ann and his having had a child by her.

How old exactly was Obama when any such adoption may have occurred? 5? 6? 4? We don't know.

I would suggest it probably did not matter much. Maybe when they moved to Indonesia, Lolo gave a statement to the Indonesian bureaucrat that he had adopted Barry when he was four, even though Barry may have been five at the time. People are quick to assume that Lolo lied on the school registration form, but maybe instead it was that he fudged the year when he adopted Barry.

Or maybe not. I think it would not have been necessary to lie anyway.

One has to keep in mind the political circumstances in Indonesia at the time.

Lolo was a person in a very high status category. He was highly educated, he was an ethnic Javanese (and NOT ethnic Chinese - very important), he was a skilled professional (geologist) of the kind that the regime desperately wanted, he held an important position in the Indonesian Army, and his family was known to have resisted the Dutch colonialists. The Indonesian government wanted Lolo so badly that they insisted he move back there from Hawaii.

So I don't think it is even necessary to assume that Lolo gave fudged information to an Indonesian bureaucrat in order to get Barry Indonesian citizenship. In a third world autocracy, who you are is always the most important thing vis-a-vis the government bureaucracy.

If Lolo applied to the government department for Indonesian citizenship for a small child he had acknowledged was his adopted son, the last thing a government bureaucrat would do in the case of someone of Lolo's favored status would be to quibble over a year.

So I think it likely that the statements on the school registration are in fact correct. We can't know for certain based on the limited facts available for analysis. We would have to have access to the government records of Indonesia. The party line now by Obama and the Indonesian government is that Obama was never a citizen of Indonesia, but no one can seriously take that as conclusive given all of the other falsehoods and concealments that surround Obama's background. What deal or deals has Obama made with the regime in Indonesia? We don't know.

Of course, that never stops blowhards from making categorical statements as if they had omniscient access to all relevant facts. Best to ignore them.

[edge919]

A newspaper story showed that the Soetoro’s married in 1965. Obama was four and could have been adopted and become a citizen without the need for naturalization. The story about him being 5 or 6 came out later.

[mojitojoe]

On no they don’t. Around 65% think something is fishy with his BC. I can assure you in the court of public opinion it does NOT help him. People that voted for him now have doubts. If they doubt his honesty in one area it transfers to other areas. He wants this to go away. If that were not the case there wouldn’t be obots like you working every site on the internet anytime something is posted regarding the BC. The fact that you are here so diligently attempting to defend him is all the proof I need.

[Yosemitest]

Have you seen this?

---

Let's examine

how Hawaii legally can issue bcs for those born out of state
and then hide this fact
by issuing a certificate stating BORN IN HAWAII OAHU HONOLULU"

I refer you to Birth Certificate Vs. Certification Of Live Birth.

We just did a story bringing to light how
the U.S. Army revoked the orders of a Major scheduled to deploy to Afghanistan
after he filed a lawsuit
claiming that the deployment would be illegal
due to the fact that Barack Obama has failed to produce a birth certificate,
therefore he has not proven his eligibility to be Commander-In-Chief.

To say that we started a firestorm would be putting it mildly.

We had our fair share of rational responses,
as well as the usual off-topic comments, accusations of being right-wing nuts, etc.

As well as a few that were too obscene to put into print.

It turns out that our theory
that the document presented by Obama appears to be homemade has some support,
in that it seems that there is a difference between a “Certification of Live Birth” as opposed to a “Certificate of Live Birth.”

Our friend Pamela at Atlas Shrugs also presents a compelling case
that the document presented as proof that Obama is a natural-born American citizen is indeed a forgery.

And for you Obamanites
who claim that there is no difference between a Certification of Live Birth and a Birth Certificate,
we, as well as the State of Hawaii, would have to disagree with you.

Pay close attention to the following Hawaiian legal statute:

“[§338-17.8]  Certificates for children born out of State.
(a)  Upon application of an adult or the legal parents of a minor child,
the director of health shall issue a birth certificate for such adult or minor,
provided that proof has been submitted to the director of health
that the legal parents of such individual
while living without the Territory or State of Hawaii
had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year
immediately preceding the birth or adoption of such child.

(b)  Proof of legal residency shall be submitted to the director of health
in any manner that the director shall deem appropriate. 
The director of health may also adopt any rules pursuant to chapter 91
that he or she may deem necessary or proper to prevent fraudulent applications for birth certificates
and to require any further information or proof of events
necessary for completion of a birth certificate.

(c)  The fee for each application for registration shall be established by rule adopted pursuant to chapter 91.
[L 1982, c 182, §1]”

Everybody get that?

As long as an adult can walk into Hawaii’s version of the Department of Records
and provide proof that they (the parents) are a legal resident of Hawaii,
the document is issued.

The child, on the other hand, could have been born in Hawaii, KENYA, or a back-alley in Budapest.
How much more proof do you disciples of the Messiah need
before you will admit
that there are legitimate reasons
to demand answers on this issue?

Of course the fact that
Obama may have been elected to our nation’s highest office in direct violation of the United States Constitution
is NOT something that would greatly trouble a dedicated Kool-Aid drinker.

But you STILL WON'T ACCEPT THE TRUTH that

Barack Hussein Obama II ...is ...
THE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT IN CHIEF!!!

Here is some more information and links

and all of this without using the link to "the source of the "moderator-offending-video" by a group called The Council of Conservative Citizens.
This is NOT a Conservative group, do not be fooled by the name.
This group is a front group for a neo-Nazi group known as the National Alliance and is associated with Stormfront.

(But I don't see how those groups are MORE OFFENSIVE THAN the Marxists and Fascists in the White House.)

I have several witnesses, that have proven to me that Barack Hussein Obama II was born in Kenya.

First witness, Barack Hussein Obama II himself:

From the AP in 2004: Kenyan-born Obama all set for US Senate

Hmm…An AP story from 2004 entitled Kenyan-born Obama all set for US Senate has been discovered on archive.org by many sites (and twitter where I got this). Does this mean now that the AP is nothing but a bunch of birthers?

Kenyan-born US Senate hopeful, Barrack Obama, appeared set to take over the Illinois Senate seat after his main rival, Jack Ryan, dropped out of the race on Friday night amid a furor over lurid sex club allegations. ...

The above artice is also found at FreedomsPhoenix.com.
They have a great spoof Birth Certificate you just gotta' see.
Also view the video at Proof Obama Admits He Was Born In Kenya.


Second witnesses, his mother and father, indirectly through their divorce papers.

Ed Hale, aprivate investigator in Hawaii, has uncovered the divorce decree for Barack Obama’s father and mother, which indicates they had “one child under the age of eighteen, born in Kenya.”
But a later Update 1/1/2009,...
"In his 7:45pm Plains Radio broadcast, this last night, Ed Hale backed down from his prior assertion of having gained even uncertain information about the Barack Sr. / Stanley Ann divorce decree containing language referring to Barack Jr. as being born in Kenya. Instead, Hale referred to an apparently tricky recollection... of an ... referring to such a document's generally referring to the place of birth of the children of the divorced parents."

I believe that "indeterminate person" probably SAW the Obama Dunham Divorce Documents BEFORE Page 11 disappeared and viewed the Kenyan Birth Cerfiticate,
thereby telling Ed Hale

"the divorce decree for Barack Obama’s father and mother, indicates they had 'one child under the age of eighteen, born in Kenya.' ".

The Obama Dunham Divorce Documents are viewable at this location.
There's a great assumption of the time lime at at link.

See the whole Obama 1964 divorce on Scribd.com or as 13 individual images below (in proper order):







I immediately called the clerk in Hawaii and asked where the extra page was. She looked, and counted, and said that there must be some mistake in the records – she counted only 13 pages that are available for reprint. I pointed out to her that the page count she sent skipped from page 10 to page 12 – page 11 was missing. To that, she suggested that perhaps the pages were simply misnumbered before they where archived into the microfiche.

I accepted her answer, not thinking much about it at the time. Perhaps it was just a clerical error in the 1960s, when hand-filed paper records and IBM punch cards were how court documents were tracked and maintained.

I have since come to learn that Obama and his team of lawyers have been working to sanitize his records since he announced that he’d run for President circa November 2004. Now in the White House, he’s still ACTIVELY blocking subpoenas for such documents as his Cambridge and Occidental College records TODAY – the same type of documents promised to be made available during his campaign. Obama and his lawyers are exceedingly adept at exploiting loopholes in Hawaiian birth certificate law to keep Obama’s past hidden from the American people.

This missing page – page 11 – very likely is a copy of the original birth certificate, based upon the prima facie timeline of the 1964 divorce. The Kenya birth certificate was likely requested on Jan 23, 1964 by either Judge King (to award custody on the next trial date), or recommended to Ann Dunham by her attorney for the ex parte divorce, where only one parent was expected to be present.

The missing page, 11, should be chronologically-numbered as all other pages were in the original docket file, by the court clerk at the time. Starting at page 8, Exhibit A is placed where it would have occurred by date in the paperwork (and appeared on microfiche), even denoting an erased, yet barely-readable “8″ on both pages of the returned notification sent to Obama SR. The missing page, numbered as page 11, would likely be a page that would have been admitted to the divorce file sometime in mid- to late-February 1964 – almost as if it were an undocumented “Exhibit B”.

Here’s a very plausible timeline merging the 1964 Obama Divorce papers and new Kenya birth certificate:

Jan 20 (Mon) – divorce request is filed by Stanley Ann D. Obama

Jan 23 (Thur) – divorce orders for trial are given by Judge King at chambers

(note – if the judge, or Ann Dunham’s attorney, told her to order the Kenya birth certificate, it would have been mailed 10,000 miles away, to the “Coast Province” Registrar’s office of the “Republic of Kenya”, likely arriving around the first week of February 1964 to be processed)

Jan 28 (Tue) – Gail A. Watanabe, presumably an assistant of Ann Obama attorney George Kerr, mails the notification for trial to Obama SR (her affidavit is signed Feb 3 and filed)

Jan 30 (Thur) – via Air Mail, notification of trial arrives at Obama SR’s Cambridge, Mass, address. The 10-day “knock and nail” notification would have expired on Sun, Feb 9. Therefore, the next trial date would have been automatically set, per Judge King’s instructions, for the first Tuesday, 30 days later, on March 3

Feb 10 (Mon) – allowing for a 10-day “knock and nail” notification for trial, Obama SR’s trial notification would have been retrieved by the US Post Office on this date, to be mailed back (as events turned out – UNSIGNED by Obama SR) to Hawaii as an exhibit for trial

Feb 17 (Mon) – the Obama Kenya birth certificate is signed by the “Coast Province” Deputy Registrar, to be mailed back to Hawaii for receipt by Ann Obama and/or her attorney
(note: mail time would have ranged from a few days (Air Mail) to a couple of weeks (ship), arriving back in Hawaii in the last week of February to first week of March 3 (Tue). Based upon Judge King’s Jan 23 orders for the next trial date, “at 9:30 a.m. on the first Tuesday after thirty (30) days have elapsed from and after the date” that Obama SR would have been served with the notice of trial. That notification came back, unsigned, by Obama SR, so Ann’s attorneys surely requested, and received Default Judgment for the divorce in her favor for “grievous mental suffering”

Mar 5 (Thur) – trial takes place in favor of divorce in Hawaii, placing custody of Obama JR to his mother by default
(note: the trial was likely rescheduled 2 days after the automatically set date of Mar 3, possibly for the convenience of the judge and/or parties)

Mar 20 (Fri) – the divorce decree is signed by Judge King


In Hawaii, birth certificates are not Public Record. If the Kenya birth certificate was a part of the divorce decree, it may have been pulled out at the end of the trial, or more recently by a watchful archivist or attorneys wishing to remove unfavorable information about Obama.
To date, despite other honest attempts to refute the Kenya birth certificate, such as dealing with when the “Republic of Kenya” came into existence as a republic have been “un-bunked.” Dishonest alterations of the Kenya birth certificate have been maliciously created by sites such as Democratic Underground, designed to discredit the Kenya birth certificate – they’ve been un-bunked as well.

Having not actually seeing the Kenya birth certificate, and it’s chain of evidence, no intellectually-honest person can say if it’s real or not. By the same token, none of us have seen or touched the short-form “Certification of Live Birth” that has appeared on Obama’s “Fight the Smears” or FactCheck.org websites.

No one can confirm the chain of evidence of Obama’s “Certification of Live Birth” that has appeared online, which is the abbreviated-version of Obama’s true, 1961, original long-form(s) “Certificate of Live Birth” and associated vital statistics records. Even the Hawaii Department of Health directly refuses to verify Obama’s online COLBs.

Third witness, is Barack Hussein Obama II's grandmother,Sarah Hussein Obama:
View the video Barack Obama - Born in Kenya II at Youtube.com.

Did Obama's grandmother say he was born in Kenya?The Oct. 16, 2008, telephone interview was conducted by American Christian minister Ron McRae, who describes himself in his affidavit as an overseer of the Anabaptist Churches in North America and a "Presiding Elder on the African Presbytery."

McRae, who called from Detroit, says Sarah Obama was in a public setting with several hundred people listening to the telephone call on a speakerphone. The interpreter was Vitalis Akech Ogombe, the community chairman of Sarah Obama's village of Nyang'oma Kogelo in Western Kenya, 30 miles west of the Lake Victoria-city of Kisumu.

"In the ensuing public conversation, I asked Ms. Obama specifically,
'Were you present when your grandson was born in Kenya?'"
McRae testified in his sworn statement.
"This was asked to her in translation twice, and both times she replied, "Yes! Yes she was! She was present when Obama was born."

Watch and LISTEN to the video BARACK OBAMA - BORN IN KENYA - The Documentary - STUNNING!
and prove it to yourself.
Also watch Affidavit and Tape-Proof Obama Born in Kenya.

The fourth witness, Tim Adams,

"Barack Obama was definitely not born in Hawaii as the White House maintains, and that a long-form, hospital-generated birth certificate for Obama does not even exist in the Aloha State."

(It is now confirmed by Hawaii that Tim Adams did indeed work as a senior elections clerk in 2008)

Election official: I'd testify Obama not born in Hawaii

"The things I've said, I don't mind testifying in court," Tim Adams, the senior elections clerk for the city and county of Honolulu in the 2008 campaign, told WND in an exclusive interview.

"I was working there, and this is what it was. I'm not a lawyer, just a civil servant. I know what I know. I know what I was told by the hospitals and by my supervisors."

"There is no birth certificate," he said. "It's like an open secret. There isn't one. Everyone in the government there knows this."

"I had direct access to the Social Security database, the national crime computer, state driver's license information, international passport information, basically just about anything you can imagine to get someone's identity," Adams explained. "I could look up what bank your home mortgage was in. I was informed by my boss that we did not have a birth record [for Obama]."

At the time, there were conflicting reports that Obama had been born at the Queen's Medical Center in Honolulu, as well as the Kapi'olani Medical Center for Women and Children across town. So Adams says his office checked with both facilities.

"They told us, 'We don't have a birth certificate for him,'" he said. "They told my supervisor, either by phone or by e-mail, neither one has a document that a doctor signed off on saying they were present at this man's birth."

To date, no Hawaiian hospital has provided documented confirmation Obama was born at its facility.

Adams, 45, stressed, "In my professional opinion, he definitely was not born in Hawaii. I can say without a shadow of a doubt that he was not born in Hawaii because there is no legal record of him being born there. If someone called and asked about it, I could not tell them that person was born in the state."

WND confirmed with Hawaiian officials that Adams was indeed working in their election offices during the last presidential election.

"His title was senior elections clerk in 2008," said Glen Takahashi, elections administrator for the city and county of Honolulu.

Adams oversaw a group of 50 to 60 employees and was responsible for verifying the identity of voters, especially absentee voters.

"If you're working in the civil service and you say this, you're done," Adams said. "Don't expect to have a good career, especially since the governor is on the other side. Embarassing them is not good for your career."

The Fifth witness, Michelle Obama.

Watch the video Michelle Obama Admits Kenya is Barack Hussein Obama's Home Country.
Watch the second video, Michelle Obama - Barack Is A Kenyan - Obama Birth Certificate.flv.

From Former Obama Supporters: "Michelle Obama in her own words admits that Barack’s home country is Kenya.
When you hear the MSM report that the Obama Birth Certificate issue is a non-issue and not valid to be debated,
they are telling us an outright lie.
The Constitution states plainly that a person must be a NATURAL BORN CITIZEN to hold the office of POTUS.
When the MSM reports to the public that this is a non-issue or a settled issue
and the people that care about this are “Crazy Birthers” or “Flat Earthers”
they are simply trying to make a valid issue go away."

The Sixth Witness, Kenyan Ambassador Peter Ogego:

Watch Kenyan Ambassador Admits Obama Was Born In Kenya.

The Seventh Witness, James Orengo (the Kenyan Parliament Minister of Lands):

Watch Kenyan Parliament Minister Says Obama was Born in Kenya!!.

The Eighth Witness, Lucas Daniel Smith,

Watch and learn.
Barack H Obama Born in Kenya The REAL Birth Certificate AT LAST!.wmv

(Just click on them for the source information.)



And finally, an outstanding video to watch,
(Revised) Kenyan Parliament Minister Says Obama was Born in Kenya!!

Case CLOSED!!!

---

[Non-Sequitur]

Obama was four and could have been adopted and become a citizen without the need for naturalization.

But they did not move back to Indonesia until Obama was 5 or 6 and I don't see how an Indonesian adoption could have been accomplished outside of the country especially when the law said that the Pengadilan Negeri, which I assume is a government entity, had to certify the adoption at the residence of the adopted father. In 1965 the residence was Honolulu.

[edge919]

You don’t have the capacity to imagine that Lolo had a permanent residence in Indonesia while attending school in Hawaii and could have had the adoption certified on a trip home??

[Non-Sequitur]

You don’t have the capacity to imagine that Lolo had a permanent residence in Indonesia while attending school in Hawaii and could have had the adoption certified on a trip home??

I can imagine a lot of things, though apparently not as creatively as Birthers can.

[edge919]

No one said anything about so-called birthers. I’ll assume you’re just conceding the point.

[Non-Sequitur]

No one said anything about so-called birthers. I’ll assume you’re just conceding the point.

I will concede your point is highly imaginative and unsupported by any evidence I'm aware of. How's that?

[edge919]

It is supported by evidence. We have a school registration in Indonesia that lists Obama as an Indonesia citizen.

[Non-Sequitur]

It is supported by evidence. We have a school registration in Indonesia that lists Obama as an Indonesia citizen.

That same document says he was born in Honolulu. So I guess that ends all that stuff about born in Kenya that Yosemitest posted in reply 146 isn't 'Case closed'?

You want to tell him or should I?

[edge919]

That same document says he was born in Honolulu. So I guess that ends all that stuff about born in Kenya that Yosemitest posted in reply 146 isn't 'Case closed'?

You guess wrong. There is a lot of evidence that disputes where Obama was born, including his wife's own words, but not so much to dispute that he was an Indonesian citizen at this time in his life. I assume you're still conceding the point.

[Non-Sequitur]

You guess wrong. There is a lot of evidence that disputes where Obama was born, including his wife's own words, but not so much to dispute that he was an Indonesian citizen at this time in his life. I assume you're still conceding the point.

The only evidence you have to support the claim that he was an Indonesian citizen also claims he was born in Honolulu. So if Soetoro was lying about where he was born why couldn't he be lying about his citizenship?

[LorenC]

Kleon: "There is obviously other legal work the firm is doing for Obama. It makes no sense that $2 billion would be spent on a handful of cases that never went anywhere."

Not only is that true, but Red Steel's own visual aids prove this. To wit:

FEC record for payment to Perkins Coie, 2008 post-general election report (covers Oct 16, 2008, to Nov. 24, 2008)

FEC record for payment to Perkins Coie, 2008 year-end report (covers Nov. 25, 2008, to Dec. 31, 2008)

Now that's a total of over $378,000 spent before December 31, 2008. And not only were there very few Birther cases brought before December 31, 2008, only ONE had involvement from Perkins Coie attorneys.

That case was Berg v. Obama. And although its filings all signed by a Philadelphia attorney and not a Perkins Coie attorney, we'll go ahead and treat this as a Perkins Coie expense. Just for the heck of it. And thanks to PACER, we can see every document that Obama's attorneys filed in the case.

To be specific, they filed only three documents. A total of 30 pages, including Certificates of Service.

So 30 pages of filings, and $378,000 paid to Perkins Coie. In pretending that the Perkins Coie expenses are all Birther-related, Red Steel is proposing that Obama spent $12,600 PER PAGE of filings. To defend a case against a Plaintiff's attorney so incompetent that he cited a fake document signed by 'Dudley Doright' as evidence of a conspiracy.

[LorenC]

Nothing, except that one of bambi's lawyer friends was interested enough in the topic to write a paper on it.

How do you she wrote it at BHO's request, or that BHO was involved with it in any way?

Good question, but you're jumping the gun. You're assuming that's it's accurate to say to begin with that Sarah Herlihy is Obama's friend. And there's no evidence to support any such relationship.

[edge919]

Is that you want to believe ... that he’s lying about where Obama was born because you don’t want to accept the possibility Obama was adopted and became and Indonesian citizen?? AFIK, Soetoro wasn’t present for Obama’s birth, so at best, he would simply be ignorantly repeating what he was told by his wife, whom we already know isn’t particularly honest.

[edge919]

You miss the big picture ... Obama shouldn’t be spending any money to defend against these cases when he could easily authorize the state of Hawaii to release an official long-form certificate.

[Non-Sequitur]

Is that you want to believe ... that he’s lying about where Obama was born because you don’t want to accept the possibility Obama was adopted and became and Indonesian citizen??

No, I don't believe that Obama was an Indonesian citizen because the timeline does not work with the laws in place at the time. For Obama to achieve citizenship through adoption then that adoption would need to have been done before August 1976. The Indonesian school record you love so much is dated January 1, 1978. Every time line I've seen indicated Soetoro moved the family back to Indonesia some time in late 1977. Any adoption would have had to have happened after Obama was 5. Assuming that there was ever any adoption to begin with.

AFIK, Soetoro wasn’t present for Obama’s birth, so at best, he would simply be ignorantly repeating what he was told by his wife, whom we already know isn’t particularly honest.

And we know that Soetoro himself was a paragon of honesty because....? For all you know he put down whatever he wanted on that form and wasn't required to back it up with any documentation at all - proof of Obama being born in Hawaii, proof of citizenship, proof of adoption, whatever.