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Knife-wielding man gunned down by cops in Times Square
NYPost.com ^ | 8/12/21012 | LARRY CELONA, AARON FEIS and ANNIE KARNI

Posted on 08/12/2012 4:28:33 AM PDT by raybbr

Cops shot a knife-wielding maniac dead on a packed Midtown street yesterday after several officers drew their weapons and chased him at gunpoint through Times Square.

“Shoot me! Shoot me!” the armed madman shouted at a crowd of more than 20 cops, who had followed him for several blocks and blasted him with pepper spray before cornering him on Seventh Avenue near West 38th Street, according to witness Robert James.

The furious 51-year-old finally lunged at the officers with his 11-inch butcher knife, leading two cops to blast him in the torso, groin and arms at about 3 p.m., police said.

SNIP

Cops shot a knife-wielding maniac dead on a packed Midtown street yesterday after several officers drew their weapons and chased him at gunpoint through Times Square.

“Shoot me! Shoot me!” the armed madman shouted at a crowd of more than 20 cops, who had followed him for several blocks and blasted him with pepper spray before cornering him on Seventh Avenue near West 38th Street, according to witness Robert James.

The furious 51-year-old finally lunged at the officers with his 11-inch butcher knife, leading two cops to blast him in the torso, groin and arms at about 3 p.m., police said.


(Excerpt) Read more at nypost.com ...


TOPICS: Local News
KEYWORDS: banglist; doyoufeelluckypunk; goaheadmakemyday; knifecontrol; mustbeangryteaparty; nannybloomberg; newyork; obama; obamason; obamasupporter; pepperspray; suicidebycop; taser; timesquare; timesquarecrazy; timessquare; timessquarecrazy; timessquareshooting
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To: kingattax

Killing the mentally ill should be a last resort. From the article, it didn’t sound like they were out of options.

Yes, I’m capable of dealing with a crazy with a knife without killing them. I’ve done it.

The number one job of a policeman is not to maximize their own survival. If they can’t accept that, they should get a different job. I’ve read a lot of stories concerning police responding to a person suffering a psychotic break. Despite being told that the person is crazy, they show up, demand the person drop the non-firearm weapon, and then shoot to kill from 30 ft away.

Most of these situations should be control and constrain, and are not time critical. If you have an older relative with dimentia, do you really want them treated the same as an armed robber?


51 posted on 08/12/2012 9:35:30 AM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: raybbr

52 posted on 08/12/2012 9:38:25 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: E.Allen

Thanks for the explanation.


53 posted on 08/12/2012 9:39:37 AM PDT by pieceofthepuzzle
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To: MonicaG

You do have to touch with tasers that are not guns.


54 posted on 08/12/2012 9:39:51 AM PDT by ConservativeMind ("Humane" = "Don't pen up pets or eat meat, but allow infanticide, abortion, and euthanasia.")
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To: SampleMan
Why aren’t cops capable of dealing with crazy people without killing them?

Because we don't have Star Trek era weapons like phasers that can be selectively set on "stun".

If a raging lunatic is swinging a knife, threatening people (cops or citizens) there isn't that much time to react at close range. You have one chance, and that involves a gun. Police are in fact trained to maintain a certain distance from people so that they DO have enough time to react if things turn crazy.

A perfect world with phasers on stun would be nice, but until that happens, I really am just fine with lunatics waving butcher knives and making threats being dealt with quickly to minimize the danger to innocent people.
55 posted on 08/12/2012 9:42:50 AM PDT by Nepeta
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To: raybbr

The guy had a knife, why couldn’t they tase or throw a net on him or improvise a bolo and immobilize his feet or use any of the PD’s arsenal of non lethal weapons?


56 posted on 08/12/2012 9:44:30 AM PDT by Yollopoliuhqui
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57 posted on 08/12/2012 9:49:20 AM PDT by RedMDer (https://support.woundedwarriorproject.org/default.aspx?tsid=93destr)
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To: E.Allen
Tranquilizer guns work when you have enough time to estimate the weight of the target, measure out the proper dosage in the dart, and (BIG AND) not have to worry that the target has already self medicated to the point that your dosage pushes him to a toxic level, thereby making it YOUR action that killed him.

Even tranquilizers administered in controlled circumstances are not guaranteed to work.

I once dealt with a yearling filly who had nearly sliced off her eyelid. She needed to be on the ground so needlepoint could be done and get the lid attached.

Mind you, this was a yearling, well under 1000 pounds. There were 4 adults to try and restrain her. The vet put enough tranquilizer into her to get an elephant on the ground, but she was still on her feet, scared and panicking.

Never underestimate the effect of fear and panic upon what animals or people can do.
58 posted on 08/12/2012 10:02:51 AM PDT by Nepeta
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To: Nepeta
A perfect world with phasers on stun would be nice, but until that happens, I really am just fine with lunatics waving butcher knives and making threats being dealt with quickly to minimize the danger to innocent people.

Be sure to leave those instructions concerning your relatives in nursing homes, etc.

Your star trek ref is silly. There are a multitude of ways to neutralize a person with a knife when time permits, 12 gauge bean bags and standoff tasers are just two.

59 posted on 08/12/2012 10:03:37 AM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: SampleMan; DarthVader; TreeTreeTweeTs
Yes, I’m capable of dealing with a crazy with a knife without killing them. I’ve done it.

are you pretending to be Chuck Norris again ? seriously, taking down knife-wielding villains in video games doesn't count.

60 posted on 08/12/2012 10:15:42 AM PDT by kingattax (99 % of liberals give the rest a bad name)
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To: SampleMan
Tasers have been pulled from use by the police in my fair city after someone croaked following their application.

That leaves bean bags.

I didn't think the Star Trek aspect was at all silly. People assume there has to be a way to keep things clean and pretty, but the reality is someone brandishing a butcher knife in the middle of Manhattan is a problem, and the resolution is probably not going to be clean and pretty. If the guy had gotten to a citizen--let's milk it for maximum emotion--and cut the throat of a 4 year old, there would be an uproar about failure to stop him in time.
61 posted on 08/12/2012 10:17:45 AM PDT by Nepeta
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To: kingattax

“I’m MACHO MAN....I’ll take that knife and shove it down you a$$!”

Then in one minute you’ll go from “MACHO MAN” to “DEAD PERSON”.

-Richard Pryor.


62 posted on 08/12/2012 10:18:24 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: raybbr
Oh gawd, visions of the UK are flashing in my head





on a totally unrelated note, when I skimmed the text "11 inch butcher knife" momentarily registered in my head as "11 inch butter knife"
63 posted on 08/12/2012 10:29:12 AM PDT by verum ago (A good physical therapist is half friend, half sadist.)
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To: raybbr

When I watched the video at the link, it started with an advertisement for Gerber Knives. The commercials must be in a rotation because when I went to confirm what I saw, a different add played. Anyone else see that? Thought that was rather odd!!


64 posted on 08/12/2012 10:41:22 AM PDT by Gettin Betta
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To: SampleMan
The number one job of a policeman is not to maximize their own survival. If they can’t accept that, they should get a different job.

I think this would be news to police. They are not pledged to perform like the Secret Service in protecting the president et alia.

My older relatives are all gone, and now I am one, but that said, if I descend into dementia, and am menacing people with a sharpened 11 inch butter knife, I hope I am shot dead before I can hurt any innocents. I don't menace or threaten anyone and if I'm that far gone, I'm not "me" any longer.
65 posted on 08/12/2012 10:51:28 AM PDT by Nepeta
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To: Zhang Fei

If he was hopped up on something, a taser might not have the same effect as someone who isn’t.

If someone is coming at an officer, ready to stab him, the officer has EVERY RIGHT to kill the sh!thead.

The less thugs on the streets, the better off for us citizens.


66 posted on 08/12/2012 11:18:43 AM PDT by NoGrayZone (For evil to triumph it is only necessary for good men to do nothing.)
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To: SMGFan

“The NYPost knows 38th Street is not Times Square”

They may have chased him down to 38th Street, but the picture with this story shows the cop to be on 7th Avenue between 43rd and 44th. I know this because my office building is in the background of this picture.


67 posted on 08/12/2012 11:19:08 AM PDT by cammie
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To: Vaquero
"....so now he screwed up the psyche of cops who would have rather just arrest this miscreant."

So true. I don't think people realize what an officer, or any law abiding citizen, has to go through after taking a life.

It is life altering.

68 posted on 08/12/2012 11:23:59 AM PDT by NoGrayZone (For evil to triumph it is only necessary for good men to do nothing.)
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To: Nepeta

Seriously? You want someone to kill you if you ever have a paranoid break? Even though you would likely recover and harm no one? Hell of a living will you got there. Forget DNR, you have JSM (just shoot me).

Should we not then preemptively shoot all Alziemers patients, as they are prone to violence?

I prefer a loving society that only uses lethal force when necessary.


69 posted on 08/12/2012 11:28:31 AM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: momtothree; Zhang Fei

Hey mom!!!

I don’t believe most people understand these types of situations. An officer, especially the ones who work the ghetto, face on a daily basis.

It’s very easy for us, sitting here in the safety of our protected homes to judge those whom put themselves in harms way on a daily basis.

I always say “thank goodness it’s them and not me. I DO NOT have the courage to stand up against evil on a daily basis and am grateful there are those who do”.


70 posted on 08/12/2012 11:29:36 AM PDT by NoGrayZone (For evil to triumph it is only necessary for good men to do nothing.)
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To: pieceofthepuzzle; E.Allen
"What about ‘tranquilizer guns’? Have I watched too many wildlife tag and release videos or do these actually exist - and work?"

Why? So this thug can get out and actually kill an innocent bystander the next time?

Why? So we can spend our stolen tax dollars to house, clothe and feed these monsters for Lord knows how long?

The best way to get rid of evil is to do just that.....GET RID OF IT.

71 posted on 08/12/2012 11:34:34 AM PDT by NoGrayZone (For evil to triumph it is only necessary for good men to do nothing.)
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To: raybbr

Oh man, he got ‘Zimmerman’ed’?


72 posted on 08/12/2012 11:39:44 AM PDT by GeorgeWashingtonsGhost
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To: SampleMan; raybbr
"Why aren’t cops capable of dealing with crazy people without killing them?"

Perhaps because they are crazy and won't hesitate for a moment to take an officer out? Or perhaps police officers are not "psychologists" who can diagnose a crazy on the scene when his/her life is in danger?

You are obviously not a police officer.

73 posted on 08/12/2012 11:49:14 AM PDT by NoGrayZone (For evil to triumph it is only necessary for good men to do nothing.)
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To: NoGrayZone

Plain and simple to me.. the man posed a threat to the officers and the surrounding citizens. I wouldn’t want to get within 35 feet of him since he could charge me. I think it’s a good shot and the police want to go home to their families at night, too. Now, I am the first one to blast (no pun intended) the police when they do something wrong but in my opinion... this shooting is perfectly reasonable to me.


74 posted on 08/12/2012 12:01:43 PM PDT by momtothree
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To: momtothree
Amen. People forget sometimes that these officers DO have a family they need to get back home to.

What if it were one of us in that situation? Most on this board would NOT hesitate in bringing the crazy down.

To me there is no difference. Kill or be killed. Very simple concept.

75 posted on 08/12/2012 12:11:49 PM PDT by NoGrayZone (For evil to triumph it is only necessary for good men to do nothing.)
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To: dfwgator

76 posted on 08/12/2012 12:14:36 PM PDT by kingattax (99 % of liberals give the rest a bad name)
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To: SampleMan
Seriously? You want someone to kill you if you ever have a paranoid break? Even though you would likely recover and harm no one? Hell of a living will you got there. Forget DNR, you have JSM (just shoot me).

Should we not then preemptively shoot all Alziemers patients, as they are prone to violence?

I prefer a loving society that only uses lethal force when necessary.


I've seen dementia up close and personal. These people do not magically become whole again. And no, even if dementia happened that way, I would not want to suddenly become whole and be told, O, by the way, you slashed 5 people and killed 2 others while the police were trying to think of something non-lethal to do with you. As noted elsewhere, killing another person changes people forever. We are mostly hard-wired NOT to kill each other.

Did I say anything about shooting people because they have dementia, or do you think left-wing emotional exaggerations are a substitute for sticking to what was actually said? Or is this really about your nobility and loftiness of character?

A loving society...a loving society protects the innocent, the weak, the young, and the old...it values the victims of crime above the criminals.
77 posted on 08/12/2012 12:26:57 PM PDT by Nepeta
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To: raybbr
Wow, that's a very timely photo there.
78 posted on 08/12/2012 12:58:15 PM PDT by mcleodglen
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To: NoGrayZone
Clearly, I don't kill crazy people because I consider their knife to be too much for me and 39 of my armed friends to otherwise deal with.
79 posted on 08/12/2012 1:23:18 PM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: Nepeta

So to clarify your position, we are supposed to shoot you if you are crazy and violent. Got it.


80 posted on 08/12/2012 1:26:23 PM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: raybbr

What was needed here was a net maybe two nets you get the psycho all tangled up and immobilized then you drag him down to the Precinct station or the loony bin as the case may be


81 posted on 08/12/2012 2:33:15 PM PDT by dennisw (Government be yo mamma - Re-elect Barack Obama)
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To: SampleMan

No you throw a net over the crazy person...That’s how you deal with guys like this


82 posted on 08/12/2012 2:34:45 PM PDT by dennisw (Government be yo mamma - Re-elect Barack Obama)
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To: raybbr

Am I the only one thinks that letting that much lead fly in THE MIDDLE OF TIMES SQUARE might not be the best or safest idea with regard to bystanders?


83 posted on 08/12/2012 3:16:50 PM PDT by robertwalker62
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To: SampleMan
So to clarify your position, we are supposed to shoot you if you are crazy and violent. Got it.

The alternative expectation that a crazy person with a weapon will be greeted with sympathetic voices, "O, you seem agitated? Did something go wrong this morning? Couldn't find matching socks? How can we help you like yourself again? No, no, you really should not go carving up the nice police horsey."

How special you are. You should offer your services to any municipality with a loon on the loose.
84 posted on 08/12/2012 4:33:23 PM PDT by Nepeta
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To: Nepeta

Being mentally ill is not a crime. Humane people attempt to help the sick, not euthanize them.

Most clinically paranoid people are quite treatable and quite controllable. But that requires you to think and not just shoot them.


85 posted on 08/12/2012 7:10:38 PM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: raybbr; Travis McGee

-
FOR THE IGNORANT AND THE PANSIES:

During the Spanish-American War:

“The .45 (semi-automatic magazine-fed Colt Model 1911 pistol) was developed in response to serious problems encountered with the .38 caliber revolvers used in the Philippines during the Spanish-American War and the subsequent ‘pacification’ campaigns.

- The anemic .38 Long Colt cartridge failed miserably in combat, and the situation was so bad that some of the virtually antique .45 caliber Model of 1873 Single Action Army revolvers (I carry one or two large-frame circa 1898 Colt Model 1873 .44-40 Winchester Single Action 7” barrel revolvers - [they do not misfire and jam the action as pistols can - simply thumb back the hammer and pull the trigger] - that use the same powerful cartridge as the famous Winchester Model 1873 lever-action carbines and rifles) were called out of retirement and refurbished for use in the Philippines.

- The old black powder .45 Colt cartridge was a formidable man-stopper, although the antiquated single action design left much to be desired (mainly by those who were lousy shots!).

- After the unpleasantness in the Philippines died down, the U.S. military establishment searched in earnest for an adequate replacement for the unsatisfactory .38 revolvers.

- A more modern Colt revolver design was adopted for use with the .45 Colt cartridge (.45 Long Colt cartridge) as the Model of 1909. These revolvers were procured in rather small numbers as a stop-gap measure.

- The government actually wanted a semiautomatic or self-loading pistol chambered for a (rimless) .45 caliber cartridge.

- After extensive trials and testing, the Model of 1911 pistol chambered for the .45 Automatic Colt Pistol (ACP) cartridge was adopted. It should be pointed out that while the M1911 is invariably referred to as an automatic (especially by liberals in politics or the media or professional anti-gunners like Sarah Brady), it is actually a semiautomatic or self-loading design.”

- Bruce N. Canfield

“...So the bush war against them (Moros - high on drugs like the Times Square Barack Pansy with his 11” long butcher knife) goes on fiercely, and when they show a remarkable resistance to being annihilated by what weapons the Army possesses (only .38 caliber handguns were issued by the top brass sitting on their ass in Washington DC), field commanders plead with the Ordnance Department to give them something more substantial than the (dinky) .38-caliber semiautomatic pistol the Colt factory in Hartford has been producing since 1902. Ordnance turns the job over to John M. Browning, the country’s chief designer of guns, asking him to produce a weapon capable of stopping a (drugged-up crazy) Moro warrior cold.

- These tough fighters have shown an annoying disposition to use their bolos (knives!!!) even when they have absorbed one or two .38-caliber bullets.

- This challenge to Browning’s genius produces first a .45-caliber bullet, around which he designs a gun, and shortly Hartford is turning out the Colt .45 automatic (actually a semi-automatic) pistol, which not only destroys Moros but becomes standard military issue in 1911.”

- Tebbel

“After the U.S. Army adopted the .45 caliber Model 1911 Colt Browning pistol, they were issued to cavalry units in the western states. The troops of the 11th Cavalry used them on 5 May 1916 at a fight at the Ojos Azules ranch near Cusihuiriachic, Mexico, in what was probably the last cavalry charge in North America. Troopers of the 11th Cavalry and their 30-odd Apache scouts arrived at the Ojos Azules ranch at dawn.

- A lone Villista sentry, who spotted these members of General John J. Pershing’s punitive expedition, opened fire. The (American Indian) Apaches dismounted and began using their Model 1903 Springfield rifles.

- After a few minutes, it became obvious that the American would no(sic/typo) Lieutenant A.M. Graham, A Troop Commander, ordered his men forward, down the road into the ranch. Graham gave the order to draw (their .45 caliber) pistols.

- Each trooper pulled his Model 1911 Colt Browning self-loader from his holster, pulled the slide back, and let it snap forward, thumbing up the safety.

- Rifles popped off to the left where the (American-Apache Indian) scouts were shooting at long range toward the Villistas, and Mexicans were seen running from the buildings to their horses grazing in the hills beyond the ranch.

- The bugler sounded the charge, and Graham spurred his horse, leading A Troop down the road. They thundered ahead at a gallop and came under heavy but inaccurate rifle fire from the ranch where some thirty or forty (Mexican) Villistas had determined to make a stand from the ranch building roofs.

- The soldiers swept through, pistoling (blowing away) bandits who were running through the yard, some half-dressed.

- Graham watched as one horsemen cleared a gate connecting a barbed wire fence that ran at a sharp angle behind the buildings. He followed and made an equally spectacular leap over the gate landing almost beside the Mexican horse.

- Graham got so close that he was able to shove his (Colt .45ACP) pistol under the fleeing man’s armpit and pull the trigger. D Troop was stopped by the fence, but with wire cutters they sniped a hole wide enough to allow their horses to pass through in column.

- But they were stopped again 100 meters past the fence by firing coming from the Villistas, who had established a defensive line among the pines on the slope of a hill.

- The (American Army) troopers dismounted to return the fire and were joined by their (Apache Indian) scouts. Several Mexicans were killed and others fled up the hill in fighting that lasted only twenty minutes.

- Machine-gun troops had also participated briefly after the battle opened, firing into the buildings at a range of 1,500 meters, but inflicting no damage.

- Pistols and rifles had killed forty-two Villistas in and near the ranch, and another nineteen were accounted for by A Troop, when they pursued the retreating enemy into the hills south of Ojos Azules.

- No Americans had been shot in the close-in combat.

- The cavalry charge at Ojos Azules ranch in 1916 ended an era.
- Hereafter, the pistol was essentially an infantry weapon, used as a personal defense weapon, not as an offensive weapon.”

- Edward C. Ezell

SOURCE:

http://ww2.rediscov.com/spring/VFPCGI.exe?IDCFile=/spring/DETAILS.IDC,SPECIFIC=10797,DATABASE=object

Go ahead - Make my day -

-


86 posted on 08/13/2012 12:05:02 AM PDT by devolve (-------------------- ------- "...maybe a little blow..." - Barack Hussein Obama Junior -------------)
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To: NoGrayZone
If he was hopped up on something, a taser might not have the same effect as someone who isn’t. If someone is coming at an officer, ready to stab him, the officer has EVERY RIGHT to kill the sh!thead. The less thugs on the streets, the better off for us citizens.

I have no problem with the fact that they shot him dead. Heck - I think there's something to be said for the medieval practice of mounting the heads of wrongdoers on pikes outside the city walls. What I have a problem with is that the city armed them with pepper spray (which they used to zero effect) instead of taser guns as their non-lethal option.

87 posted on 08/13/2012 7:25:09 AM PDT by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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