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Ukraine: Can Someone Explain…
self | jimjohn

Posted on 01/26/2014 7:02:55 PM PST by jimjohn

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To: Dead Corpse

>>>Wrong. The interviews I’ve seen border more on the “tired of having a corrupt government completely unanswerable to the People and largely only for the benefit of politically connected interests”.

Yanukovych has been consolidating power under his Presidency and acting a bit like A Dictator backed with Moscow money.

Sound familiar?<<<

Sure. Sounds like any Ukrainian government for a few last centuries. The difference with a couple of previous regimes is that they were powered by German and American money. All the corruption were in play too.
Btw, if you think Ukraine is a real dictatorship you really need to learn what real dictatorship is.


61 posted on 01/27/2014 5:17:41 PM PST by cunning_fish
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To: cunning_fish
They are headed the same direction we are. Distributed government power increasingly concentrated in one Executive.

That is never a recipe for happiness for the People...

62 posted on 01/27/2014 5:48:35 PM PST by Dead Corpse (I will not comply.)
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To: cunning_fish
It's difficult to find something which directly shows 'money in' versus 'money out' for each region because a business operating in Donetsk might be registered and pays taxes in Kiev or worse yet, offshore.

Below is a link to an article and a map of Ukraine showing budget revenues and expenses by region
http://www.investgazeta.net/ekonomika/zona-proedanija-164683/
Dark green are those that contribute the most to the budget per capita, dark red are those that are deep in the red, other colors are in between)

The article also mentions the problem of where the business is registered to pay tax (thus the high values for Kiev) so the map could be a representation of where individuals pay their taxes and collect their subsidies.

You can draw your own conclusions from this. For me, it's not conclusive as I would've liked. There is other data, like salary by region (but it wouldn't show migrant worker salaries) or employment data (officially, East and West are 2-3% apart) but it's not very telling.

If you like, here's Donetsk on the map: 10% of the population, 13% of the country's GDP and 27% of the country's subsidies


63 posted on 01/27/2014 7:00:27 PM PST by Ivan Mazepa
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To: Ivan Mazepa

In fact your chart is right on point. It clearly shows that only a single Western state (Lviv) pays a little more money in taxes to central government than it is getting back in social and development programs.
All the rest on the West are freeloaders, getting as far as 15 times as much as their input the “fair share” in subsidies (Ivano-Franckovsk).


64 posted on 01/27/2014 9:19:13 PM PST by cunning_fish
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To: cunning_fish
Donbas, the biggest loudmouths for "feeding the west" are the country's biggest freeloaders.

Donbas (Donetsk+Lugansk)=-9.25-5.07=-14.32 Billion UAH taking out more than they put in
Galicia (Lviv+IF+Tern)=0.36-3.14-3.45=-6.23 Billion UAH
(Numbers are from the same link)

We can start cherry picking who to add. I'm sure you'll like to add Kharkiv and Dnipro (almost breaking even now), but why stop there and not include Crimea, Nikolaev, Odesa etc with their negative balances

Second point, how much of of the Kyiv's negative balance of 11.74 goes back to the regions? I don't know, but I find it more likely that big businesses from the East would have their offices in the capital. There's no need for small local business in Lviv to register in Kiev.

So, it would be more accurate to say that Donbas is feeding Axmetov and their own crooks who take their money offshore and leave the subsidy to be picked up by the country's budget

65 posted on 01/28/2014 6:59:11 AM PST by Ivan Mazepa
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To: jimjohn
I hope the following will in some small way help answer your question as to "why this is happening", because the very future and freedom of the Ukraine, and its people for generations to come is at stake.

The events which started the protest rally are concisely stated in the Kiev Post: Editor's Note: “Anti-government EuroMaidan demonstrations began in Ukraine on Nov. 21, 2013 triggered by President Viktor Yanukovich’s decision to abandon closer ties with the European Union in favor of Russia, which in December offered him a $15 billion bailout and 33 percent discount on imported natural gas.”

(Translation: Simply put; Yanukovich totally reneged on the Ukrainian government’s long-standing promise to its people [going back to the fall of Communism in the country] of freedom and “closer ties with the West”, and then Yanukovich promptly turned around and sold the country of the Ukraine to Putin for a paltry 15 Billion dollars and the promise of “cheap gas”; once again subjugating the people of Ukraine under the boot of Russia and turning the Ukraine into a quasi “puppet state” of Russia. Putin, with the help of the twice convicted felon/Russian mafia boss Yanukovich want to turn the Ukraine into another Belarus [one giant prison, like North Korea] with the people reduced to servitude and Yanukovich and his successive “democratically elected” cronies set up as puppet dictators for life, under the watchful control of Putin’s Russia. The Ukrainian people realized Yanukovich’s actions and sweat heart “deal” has made this goal a reality and immediately began peacefully protesting against the régime.)

“The demonstrations turned deadly on Jan. 22, 2014 when at least three protesters were killed, including two from bullet wounds, during a police assault on the crowd. More than 300 suffered injuries. The tense standoff remains on Hrushevskoho Street near Dynamo Stadium.”

*For further insight, the following video link entitled “Ukraine: State of Chaos”, also provides an excellent overview of the historical and political dynamics that have brought the Ukraine to the position it now finds itself in.

http://vimeo.com/84879011

Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians have been peacefully protesting in order to reverse Yanukovich’s rejection of closer ties with the West and against his gas deal with Putin continually since November 21, 2013 because they want to remain free and do not want to again become a Russian satellite state.

High Resolution 360 picture of the freedom rally that has been taking place in Kiev’s Independence Square in the heart of the city since November 21st 2013:

http://www.airpano.ru/files/Ukraine-EuroMaidan/2-3-2

The protesters have remained steadfast in their resolve and peaceful demands and the movement has continued to grow. In an attempt to utterly stamp out the protest Yanukovich, and his party in Congress came up with a diabolically simple, Soviet-era plan: they passed a draconian set of laws declaring ALL PROTEST, OF ANY KIND, THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE COUNTRY “ILLEGAL”!

These sweeping new laws were illegally and unconstitutionally pushed through the Rada (the Ukrainian Congress) on January 16, 2014; they were signed by President Yanukovich into law and took full effect beginning on January 21, 2014. These sweeping new laws prohibit the ENTIRE POPULATION OF THE UKRAINE from participating in ANY public gatherings, protests, public meetings or demonstrations of any kind. The law also prohibits ANY SIGNS, OR MESSAGES which criticize the government or President Yanukovich in any way under penalty of law. Heavy monetary fines and prison sentences are automatically meted out against any and all who are found guilty.

For details on this Soviet-style set of “laws” see:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/01/16/uk-ukraine-law-idUKBREA0F12O20140116

Also included within this same perverse "law" was another provision making it ILLEGAL for journalists to investigate and report on ANY Ukrainian politician for ANY REASON WITHOUT FIRST OBTAINING THE POLITICIANS WRITTEN PERMISSION!

Given the overwhelming amount of confirmed, ongoing corruption that exists within numerous government circles, this "legal" proviso was specifically designed to prevent any discovery and disclosure of wrongdoing, and in turn criminalizes journalists for doing their job!

*It should again be noted that prior to these laws being passed; hundreds, upon hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people in Kiev and throughout the country had been peacefully protesting on an ongoing basis, without violence for TWO MONTHS since November 21, 2013!

As a direct result of these Stalinist tactics, the anti-protest ban have had the exact opposite effect and have reenergized the protest movement. Ukrainians have been defying the ban by hundreds of thousands since it was passed. Over 100,000 protestors packed Independence Square on January 19th alone, and numbers have been growing.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/19/ukraine-protests_n_4627047.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-unrest-tens-of-thousands-defy-protest-ban-in-clashes-with-police-9070479.htm

The protests have also increasingly spread throughout the entire country. This news article is dated January 26, 2014:

http://www.nation.com.pk/international/26-Jan-2014/anti-govt-protests-spread-across-ukraine

When Yanukovich’s Soviet-style laws failed to shut the Ukrainian people up, or end the peaceful demonstrations, he turned to violence by having his “Riot Police” brutally attack and kill Ukrainians who had continued to peacefully demonstrate against his oppressive government.

It has been learned and widely reported that many of these so-called Ukrainian "Riot police" are in point of fact not Ukrainians at all, but Russians who have been shipped into the country by Putin's government, with the support and cooperation of Ukrainian President Yanukovich, for the express purpose of keeping Mr. Yanukovich in power at all costs. Think of them as his personal “Praetorian Guard’.

This article will tell you what you need to know about the police throughout the Ukraine:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/01/24/ukraines_public_enemy_number_one_the_police

This is some of what Yanukovich’s "Riot Police" have been up to since his government recently forced through an illegal and unconstitutional law banning ALL public protest on the pains of heavily punitive monetary dollar fines and prison sentences:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaAeySR_B10

The protests only turned violent after two whole months when the protestors were ALL CRIMINALIZED by the Yanukovich government en-mass and attacked by his “Riot Police”.

After the anti-protest laws took effect, the thousands upon thousands of people peacefully demonstrating in downtown Kiev, and in Independence Square all received a text message sent by Yanukovich’s government on their cell phones at the same time informing each recipient that the government “knew who they were” and that “they were participating in an illegal protest”!

The enclosed YouTube news story link provides an overview of what took place on January 25 - 26th 2014 in Kiev, the capital of Ukraine. It should be noted that the Ukrainian Cultural building was taken over by protestors because it had previously been commandeered and controlled by "Riot Police" who were using it as a staging base against the demonstrators.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6uuuVaUmSQ

Do not believe the propaganda and lies being foisted upon the public by Yanukovich’s government and government-controlled media in the Ukraine and Russia. The Ukrainian protestors are not “terrorists”, “’Right Wing’ fascists”, rebels, fanatics or hooligans. They are just people like us who want to remain free and who are willing to take a stand to remain so:

People of Ukraine ask the world for support. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrEIhpKywjg

I recently received the enclosed first-hand reports sent from Christians within the Ukraine on January 2_, 2014 and felt compelled to post them because of the gravity of their contents and because they are an example of why millions of people throughout the Ukraine have been protesting their government continually since November 21, 2013. Please note, I corrected English (in parentheses) where necessary, removed the individuals name and contact information for their security and safety.

Update from Ukraine – Scary, Please read and pray. Signed: _ _ _ _ _ _ ps I did not correct _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _'s letter.

“Hello dear brothers and sisters.

I am writing from Ukraine, Kiev. It is crazy. A lot of people have been killed. A lot of provocation (provocation) is happening. One guy from my church was stolen (abducted). He was walking home, and two seconds later when he came out from bus, he was stolen (kidnapped) and taken to another bus, put on face and bited up (punched in the face and beaten up). Two hours later they brought him to some forest outside of Kiev and tried (tried) to brake (break) his arms, then took all (of) his close (clothes), and squised (squeezed/crushed) his testicals (testicles). After bitted (beating) him up they relesed (released) him to walk to Kiev alone at 3 am, when it was - 20 C. He walked home long time. And could die.

(*Friends in Christ, please pray for this brothers life and recovery.)

Another men (man) from my church was driving home, and sudenly (suddenly) a black wan (van) without (license) plates stoped (stopped) him, and 8 people came out and hitted (bludgeoned) his car (probably with bats, batons, rods or other items). But by God grace they only talked to him and did not bitted (beat) him up.

Our Goverment (Government) has sighned (signed) lowes (*laws) that limites (limits) all of us in getherings (gatherings). In Crymea (*Crimea) (Black See rigion [region]) deputats (deputies/political leaders) has (have) made a low (law) that only Moscow (Russian) Orthodox Church is legal (all) other(s) are (illegal and) under persecution. There are a lot of Baptist, Pentecostal and Charismatic Churches.

So we are scarry (scared). We need your prayers.

Please send this massege (message) to other Christian brothers and sisters to keep us and Ukraine in your prayers.”

The following excerpt on “resisting tyranny” found in “The Gulag Archipelago” best explains why the people of the Ukraine are taking action to defend themselves from their own government:

"During an arrest, you think since you are not guilty, how can they arrest you? Why should you run away? And how can you resist right then? After all, you’ll only make your situation worse; you will make it more difficult for them to sort out the mistake.

"And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say goodbye to his family?

Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?

The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin’s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! We did not love freedom enough. Every man always has handy a dozen glib little reasons why he is right not to sacrifice himself."

The Gulag Archipelago by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

Some will say… “Wait a minute, what about all of those “Ukrainians” who are supporting Yanukovich and ‘closer ties with Russia’?” Some historical background on the Crimea and the region supporting Yanukovich will help answer that question:

Once Soviet Russia conquered and subjugated the Ukraine, the former Soviet Union under Stalin depopulated the Crimean region by killing millions via Communist pogroms, the Holodomor [the intentional, systematic starvation of the entire population of the Ukraine, by direct order of Stalin beginning in 1932. The Holodomor ultimately resulted in the starvation death of between 7 and 9 million Ukrainians], and by sending multitudes of other Crimean survivors to the Gulags throughout Russian and Siberia, where the overwhelming majority eventually died.

After WWII and the death of Stalin, a massive “relocation program” was initiated throughout the Crimea by Nikita Khrushchev

(Alexander the Great wanted the Crimea, the Russian tsar’s wanted it, Napoleon wanted it, Great Brittan wanted it, Stalin wanted it, Hitler wanted it, and by the end of WWII Stalin got the Crimea back again. Why does everyone want the Crimea? First, because of its strategic Naval location on the Black Sea and secondly, because it is a great place to take a vacation, the place is beautiful!).

Multitudes of the indigenous Crimean population that survived all of the above atrocities (including the invasion and occupation of the Crimea by Nazi Germany, and Stalin’s persecution and pogroms against the region after WWII) were forcibly removed from their land and relocated deep within Eastern Russia/Siberia. In turn, Khrushchev shipped in multitudes of Russian Communists in order to repopulate the area with native speaking Russians and consolidate Soviet Russia’s holdings in the Crimea.

Subsequently, over time a massive, pro-Moscow, pro-[Soviet]-Russian population sprung up with little to no ties with the Ukraine: to this day they consider themselves Russians at heart, they speak Russian instead of Ukrainian and the region sets its clocks to “Moscow time”. The Russian Orthodox Church, historically notorious for its persecution of the evangelical church, is strong throughout this region of the Ukraine and also has strong ties with Moscow. This helps explain the Russian Orthodox Church’s recent carte blanche exemption from the new “anti-religion” laws which have recently been implemented throughout the region by deputies/politicians loyal to Yanukovich which make ALL churches and denominations, other than the Russian Orthodox Church, “illegal” and subject to punitive “anti-religion” laws: fines, prison sentences, etc.

Finally, It should also be noted that the Russian Mafia is very influential throughout this area of the country and this Russian-speaking region of the Ukraine was directly responsible for the success of Yanukovich’s presidential election victory. By in large these are the “Ukrainians” who are supporting Yanukovich and closer ties with Russia. However, this should come as no surprise given the fact that Yanukovich, the twice-convicted felon and Russian mafia boss, comes from, and ruthlessly ruled in this region of the Ukraine. He has also richly rewarded “his people” in this region for their “support” since he has taken and consolidated power as president. So it should come as no surprise that they have taken his side in the matter because there is a lot of $ at stake if he is removed from office.

As they say “follow the money”, that is unless you are a Ukrainian journalist. Because it is now “against the law” and YOU are the “criminal” if you “follow the money” without first obtaining their written permission to do so! Just like in the “good old” - “bad old days” under Soviet Russia.

You can get updates on what is taking place in the Ukraine in English on Twitter at: Euromaidan PM Facebook at: Euromaidanpr

And a Live video feed that has been running 24/7 since November 21, 2013 here:

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/euromajdan/pop-out

66 posted on 01/28/2014 9:56:48 AM PST by Jmouse007 (Deliver us from this evil, in Jesus name, amen.)
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To: jimjohn
This is also why:

January 28, 2014 UPDATE:

Ukrainian Parliament Repeals Anti-protest Laws

http://www.twinsburgbulletin.com/ap%20international/2014/01/28/ukrainian-parliament-repeals-anti-protest-laws

67 posted on 01/28/2014 11:39:48 AM PST by Jmouse007 (Deliver us from this evil, in Jesus name, amen.)
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To: jimjohn
Here is some further information in answer to your question, I hope it helps:

This is the reason why Yanukovich totally reneged on the Ukrainian government’s long-standing promise to its people [going back to the fall of Communism in the country] of freedom and “closer ties with the West”, and then Yanukovich promptly turned around and sold the country of the Ukraine to Putin for a paltry 15 Billion dollars and the promise of “cheap gas:

YANUKOVICH’S MASSIVE CORRUPTION WITH TIES TO RUSSIA ON AN UNPRECIDENTED SCALE:

Yanukovych's "family business" links him to Russia

http://www.bne.eu/story5697

Yanukovych, the luxury residence and the money trail that leads to London

http://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/serhij-leschenko/yanukovych-luxury-residence-and-money-trail-that-leads-to-london

This is what the want to be dictator of Ukraine has been doing in order to remain in power and keep the gravy train rolling at the expense of the Ukrainian people at all costs in response to the peaceful protests:

Bloodlands State-sanctioned murder on the streets of Kiev

By George Weigel January 22, 2014 7:00 PM

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/369214/bloodlands-george-weigelideo

Yanukovich and his government has also been hiring, and training paid street thugs to brutalize the peaceful protestors:

Titushky troops have become true financial pyramids (with subtitles) *Undercover video journalism story proving Yanukovich régime hiring, paying and equipping/training street thugs to beat and terrorize peaceful protestors. Video report is in Ukrainian but it is easy to understand what is being reported: Hire thugs, pay thugs, train and equip thugs, unleash the thugs on the peaceful protestors to intimidate, beat, terrorize and arrest peaceful demonstrators who are then prosecuted and sentenced in Ukrainian “kangaroo courts”. *Warning, graphic violence

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py5lBKWP-Cg&feature=youtu.be

“This is the Ukrainian response to all of the Media that broadcast false news about activists of EuroMaydan, especially Russian News Agencies that lie constantly about EuroMaydan and the people of the Ukrainian Revolution. Anna Fox”

“Это Украинский ответ на все СМИ, которые распространяют ложную информацию про активистов ЕвроМайдана, и Украинскую Революцию 2013-2014. Особенно упорно этим занимаются Российские СМИ, которые постоянно лгут своим зрителям и читателям. автор тексту: Anna Fox”

Люди Майдана / People of #Euromaidan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSFVCios0I0

http://ukrstream.tv/videos/liudi_ievromaidana_people_of_euromaydan#.UulLVNGYYkk

*Russia/Putin once again holding the country of Ukraine hostage by threatening to withhold Ukraine’s gas supply:

Putin Agrees to Pause on Ukraine Rescue as Medvedev Warns on Gas

By Anton Doroshev Jan 29, 2014 9:34 AM ET

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-01-29/putin-agrees-to-pause-on-ukraine-rescue-as-medvedev-warns-on-gas.html

…………………………………………………………

Various Ukrainian language online news stations reporting what is taking place in Ukraine:

http://ukrstream.tv/

http://hromadske.tv/

http://news.spilno.tv/

Online information and donation link: Support Euromaidan activists without leaving home

http://euromaidanpr.wordpress.com/2014/01/24/support-euromaidan-activists-without-leaving-home/

……………………………………………………………….

68 posted on 01/29/2014 12:44:03 PM PST by Jmouse007 (Deliver us from this evil, in Jesus name, amen.)
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