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To: TigersEye; betty boop; TXnMA; Alamo-Girl
That you have posted yet more Gnostic writings suggests that you erroneously believe they are representative of true Christian theology, therefore by posting them perhaps you hope to embarrass us. Not so.

Not only is modern Gnosticism in its many permutations nothing more than ancient pagan and occult thinking revamped and revised for modern appetites but it has much in common with your own Buddhist system TE.

Pre-Christian, early 'Christian' Gnostic pagans and Renaissance Churchmen and intellectuals who had turned back to ancient Egyptian Hermeticism, Mystery Religions, Gnostic dualism, reincarnation/karma, and other pagan mystical teachings were more directly influenced by Eastern occult pantheist systems than were Greek nature sages.

The leaders of the Christian Gnostic movement---Valentinus, Basilides, Arnobius and others—taught an inverted exegesis in which the physical world and bodies are the work of the devil (Yahweh), the evil demiurge who holds the Divine Substance (i.e., Carl Jung's Basilides) in bondage while Lucifer is not the devil but rather the first free thinker, the liberator of the primal automaton, the source of its' divine spark, and the seething angelic energies of evolution.

The similarity between ancient and modern Gnostic conceptions and Upanishadic and Eastern occult pantheist doctrines in general is striking. Whereas modern neo-Gnostic evolutionary materialist philosophy teaches that everything is in continuity with void and matter, its Eastern-influenced neo-Gnostic/New Age spiritual counterpart teaches that everything, even man's soul, is in continuity with non-life bearing evolving prakriti matter:

“Man’s true nature, or original consciousness, is defined differently by monistic and non-monistic gurus. The monistic gurus, who believe that God, man and the universe are ultimately one, teach that man is Infinite Consciousness or God, but has somehow become entangled in finite, personal, rational consciousness. So long as he remains in this state, he is born repeatedly in this world of suffering. Salvation lies in transcending finite, personal consciousness and merging into (or experiencing ourselves to be) the infinite Impersonal Consciousness, and thereby getting out of the cycle of births and deaths. In different words, salvation is a matter of perception or realization. You are already one with God, you have to perceive or realize this fact. Perceiving, in this context, is not cognitive activity. It is not a matter of intellectually knowing or logically deducting that we are God, but rather transcending this cognitive, rational consciousness and experiencing a “higher” state of expanded consciousness, which is believed to be God and our true self.” (Wisdom from India, Vishal Mangalwadi)

Like monistic gurus, modern Gnostics, or Pneumatics, possess the secret gnosis of escaping this evil world so as to be reabsorbed into the divine substance. So for instance, since matter is evil and reabsorption is salvation then procreation is evil because it produces more earthly suffering by trapping divine sparks within bodies.

74 posted on 03/02/2014 3:32:53 AM PST by spirited irish
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To: spirited irish

Fascinating insights, dear spirited irish, thanks for sharing them!


75 posted on 03/02/2014 5:52:43 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: spirited irish; betty boop; TXnMA
That's one way to look at it...

Gospel of Thomas Saying 11

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This Gospel of Thomas Commentary is part of the Gospel of Thomas page at Early Christian Writings.

Nag Hammadi Coptic TextGospel of Thomas Coptic Text

BLATZ

(11) Jesus said: This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away; and those who are dead are not alive, and those who are living will not die. In the days when you ate of what is dead, you made of it what is living. When you come to be light, what will you do? On the day when you were one, you became two. But when you have become two, what will you do?

LAYTON

(11) Jesus said, "This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away. And the dead (elements) are not alive, and the living (elements) will not die. In the days when you (plur.) used to ingest dead (elements), you made them alive. When you are in the light, what will you do? On the day that you were one, you made two. And when you are two, what will you do?"

DORESSE

11 [11]. Jesus says: "This heaven will pass away, and the hevaen which is above it will pass: but those who are dead will not live, and those who live will not die!" 12 [11]. "Today you eat dead things and make them into something living: <but> when you will be in Light, what will you do then? For then you will become two instead of one; and when you become two, what will you do then?"

Funk's Parallels

GThom 111:1, Ps 102:25-27, Isa 34:4, Luke 16:16-17, Luke 21:32-33, Matt 5:18, Matt 24:34-35, Mark 13:30-31, DialSav 56-57, Hippolytus Refutatio 5.8.32, Heb 1:10-12, Rev 6:12-14.

Visitor Comments

All of reality as you believe it to be is illusion and will pass. Even the illuison of birth and death will be realized as such. You pass through periods of incarnation. Then you return to the spirit world of light. God (One) chose to become (create) two and thus the ten thousand things of illusion. We are all on a mission of understanding and exploring of the nature of the 10,000 things in order to return to the One. Part of the understanding to be achieved is to realize that the One has never ceased to be the One.
- active-mystic

The marvel of this moment will pass into history and die, as will the contemplator of the marvel of this moment. What the intellect creates is dead, and what lives cannot die. During the days that you ate what is dead you made it come alive. When truth is manifest, what will you do? On the day of enlightenment you become an enlightened person. But one cannot be two.
- Simon Magus

1. This appears to be advice as to how, once enlightened, to remain so. It is not easy to still the intellect. It requires determination to do so. Once stilled, the intellect returns and we are again confused as our apprehension of truth is impaired and unity vanishes. It takes practice to bring the intellect to heel.
- Simon Magus

2. Note that there appears to be a literary flaw in the above interpretation because of the disconnect between "Sentence A", which is "During the days that you ate what is dead, you made it come alive" and "Sentence B", which is "When truth is manifest, what will you do?" Note that the most obvious interpretation of "A" is the sacrament of communion. But this is a real-world event which is accessible to historians. This is inconsistent with the spirituality of the rest of the interpretation. But there is a way out of all difficulties. We can read "A" and "B" together as what I'll call "C": During the days when you were traditional Christians, before you knew that this is my gospel, you knew in your heart that there was a deeper spiritual meaning to what you were doing in the sacrament of communion. I, Jesus, now give you that meaning, for which you are now prepared. All truth is now made manifest. A spiritual interpretation of "C" (but applied to the future) is: Henceforth you will understand the meaning of the dead sayings in the Gospel of Thomas, as they come alive to you. In brief, Jesus is recommending to traditional Christians that they henceforth celebrate true communion by studying and trying to understand his gospel.
- Simon Magus

3. Note finally that the interpretation of "C" above again raises the question of how Jesus could have spoken of the Gospel of Thomas. It is clear, I think, that he is "requiring" Christians to believe that he wrote the Gospel of Thomas, not by shaking the finger of authority at them, but by making it impossible for them, or for anybody else who studies the matter, to believe that he didn't write it! Absolutely mind-boggling! Move over, Nicene Creed. The Master has arrived!
- Simon Magus

On the Path one's world view is continually replaced by new ones. When, as a child one learns the dead ways of one's parents, one makes the "dead" alive. When faced with the knowledge of one's innate self, what will one do? As an infant one is one but becomes divided against onesself in trying to please ones parents. As a grownup divided against onesself, what will you do?
- Rodney

There are seven nafs. The two lowest [the commanding nafs] will pass away. If the student has overcome them instead of being ruled by them, he will "live" --- otherwise he dies. BTW, this technical process is the source of the twisted reincarnation notion. You are indeed "reborn" before you [physically] die
- Thief37

This is the Edenic Arcane. Death is the Fruit of the Tree of Life. Eating this fruit is eating what is dead. This is how we brought death to life, and life to death. Those who do not eat this fruit either stay dead (ignorantly happy) or stay alive (knowingly happy). When we were one (Adam) we become two (Adam & Eve), and now we must understand that we must become one before this Heaven (physical body, because Heaven is within), and the one above it (Soul) die (in the Second Death).
- Arrogant

This gospel talks about you becoming two, I believe this is when your body and soul separate and then you are one and your body dies then you go to another heaven where you no longer need to eat what is dead anymore.
- Meg

The enlightened cannot die as they know they are the universe and the universe is one (god). The cycle of life, organic life being eating to fuel organic life, life being one, with the universe which too is alive (god). Coming to the light what will "you" do, you being the false ego; when the enlightened comes into being, where does "you" go (the imaginary you)? "You" can neither go to the light nor escape death. When you were one, the coming into human form, birth, whole and integral but then conditioned in society to and the ego develops (my thoughts, my memories, my desires and wants, seperation from the whole) what will you do when you are two? The confusion and conflict of a divided human, the efforts of "you" (ego) being futile to attain wholeness, will being the enemy of enlightment.
- spacebaby

On the day you were one you became two. This reminds me of how pure in spirit a newborn child is (we are one); then, once we are taught the worldly ways (eat of the dead), we become divided in our obligations to our spiritual life and our material life (we are two). We have to then turn (or abandon) our "dead" ways back into living for purely for our spirit.
- scott

Scholarly Quotes

Jean Doresse writes: "The first part of this paragraph is quoted and commented on by the Philosophumena (V, 8, 31). According to this work, the Naassenes explained it as follows: 'If you have eaten dead things and made them living things, what then will you do when you eat living things? These living things are rational beings, intelligences, men - pearls which the great Being without form has cast into the work of here below!'" (The Secret Books of the Egyptian Gnostics, p. 371)

Marvin Meyer writes: "The two heavens will pass away. Presumably the third heaven (the realm of God; compare 2 Corinthians 12:2-4) will not. On the heavens passing away, compare Matthew 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 21:33; Matthew 5:18 (Q); Luke 16:17 (Q)." (The Gospel of Thomas: The Hidden Sayings of Jesus, p. 73)

F. F. Bruce writes: "The first part of the saying reminds us of Matthew 24.35 (cf. Matthew 5.18; Luke 16.17): 'Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away' - but it is not a close parallel. As for eating dead things, this probably means that when the flesh of dead animals is eaten by human beings it becomes part of a living body (cf. Saying 7). [A similar Naassene saying is quoted by Hippolytus, Refutation v.8.32.] The eating of flesh was probably discouraged, as making it more difficult to attain the light of immortality; the views of a vegetarian Syrian sect called the Encratites may have influenced the tradition in this and some other regards. The words about being one and becoming two refer to the dividing of man into male and female (cf. Saying 4). If sex was to be transcended in the life to come, it was felt best that it should play no part in the present life (this may be a further Encratite trait)." (Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament, p. 117)

Robert M. Grant and David Noel Freedman write: "The third part of the saying describes the condition of the Gnostic believer. Those who were formerly divided have been united; they have worked together (Saying 59); they are at peace (49); they have become one (103). Unfortunately, it looks as if becoming 'two' were regarded as the believer's goal. Perhaps it would be best to hold that the present unity of the believers represents their goal, and - in spite of the parallelism of the saying - that the becoming 'two' is something they should avoid. Jesus is not a divider (Saying 72), except in the sense that he divides families into Gnostics and non-Gnostics (Saying 16)." (The Secret Sayings of Jesus, p. 130)

Stevan Davies writes: "Those who achieve the excellence Thomas commends are people who live from the living one immortally (sayings 11, 111), while those who do not do so live from the dead and will die (sayings 7, 11, 60, 87)." (http://www.misericordia.edu/users/davies/thomas/jblprot.htm)

Funk and Hoover write: "A number of themes in this complex led the Fellows to conclude that these sayings derive from a form of Christianity exhibiting mild gnostic tendencies. This appears to be the form of Christianity Thomas espoused. The speculative cosmology in 11:1 has parallels in other gnostic texts. The obscure statements regarding life and death in 11:2-3a seem typical of Thomas (Thom 4:1; 58; 101:3; 7; 60), as does the theme of light (11:3b; compare with 24:3; 50:1; 61:5; 83:1-2). 11:4 may refer to a common gnostic idea that humanity has fallen from an original, perfect state of undifferentiated unity (22:4-7). All these considerations suggest that the Thomas tradition is the origin of this complex rather than Jesus." (The Five Gospels, p. 479)

Gospel of Thomas Saying 12

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This Gospel of Thomas Commentary is part of the Gospel of Thomas page at Early Christian Writings.

Nag Hammadi Coptic TextGospel of Thomas Coptic Text

BLATZ

(12) The disciples said to Jesus: We know that you will depart from us; who is it who will be great over us? Jesus said to them: Wherever you have come, you will go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being.

LAYTON

(12) The disciples said to Jesus, "We are aware that you will depart from us. Who will be our leader?" Jesus said to him, "No matter where you come it is to James the Just that you shall go, for whose sake heaven and earth have come to exist."

DORESSE

13 [12]. The disciples say to Jesus, "We know that Thou wilt leave us: who will <then> be the great<est> over us?" Jesus says to them: "Wherever you go, you will turn to James the Just, for whose sake heaven as well as earth was produced."

Funk's Parallels

Luke 9:46-48, Luke 22:24-27, Matt 18:1-4, Mark 9:33-35.

Visitor Comments

I would agree with Jack Kilmon that this probably represents a part of the earliest recension of Thomas (40 CE or thereabouts). It reflects the way the church was organized during the earliest Nazarene movement, the Judaic proto Christians (although this name would not be used in Jerusalem).
- John Moon

Not necessarily a saying with a meaning fixed in only one time. Rather a statement that we should always be turning to a man of ultimate just nature who in facts resides within each of us. And that heaven and earth were in fact created for the sake of each of us individually. (There is only One of Us!)
- active-mystic

The last phrase is the mystery here because our we become conscious by use of the paralax view of polarity and then literalize the poles. We see "existence" as being and not being; we see being as "heaven" and "earth". What Jesus the Nazarene Essene is saying here is that James is the highest in the levels of awareness and at that level the mind is at one with "I am that I am" and thus it appears from that perspective that heaven and earth have come into existence for that one's sake. The term "for who's sake" does not mean James ordered heaven and earth at the Universal take-out counter; it means, as with Buddha's birth phrase "I alone am the world honored one." James has rached the level of enlightenment that he appreciates that the birth of consciousness in the individual is co-equivalent with the creation of heaven and earth.
- Gregory Wonderwheel

Scholarly Quotes

Marvin Meyer refers to the quote of Hegesippus on James the Just in Ecclesiastical History 2.23.4-7 and quotes from Secret James 16:5-11 on his authority: "So, not wishing to give them offense, I sent each one of them to a different place. But I myself went up to Jerusalem, praying that I might acquire a share with the beloved ones who will appear." (The Gospel of Thomas: The Hidden Sayings of Jesus, p. 74)

Robert M. Grant and David Noel Freedman write: "The answer which Jesus gives is again related to the conversation in the Gospel of John, where Jesus tells the disciples that he is going away to prepare a 'place' for them (John 14:2-3). In Thomas, however, the 'place' is apparently earthly rather than heavenly; it is a place in which they are to go to James the Just, 'for whose sake the heaven and the earth came into existence.' This exaltation of James is characteristic of Jewish-Christian and Naassene tradition . . . it may be derived from the Gospel of the Hebrews. Doresse suggests (page 140) that James may here be regarded as a supernatural power, but there is nothing in Thomas which could favor such an interpretation." (The Secret Sayings of Jesus, p. 131)

Gerd Ludemann writes: "The logion recalls the disciples' conversations about status which we know from Mark 9.33-34. To be precise, the saying regulates the succession to Jesus (cf. the Paraclete in John 14.16, 26; 15.26; 16.7 and Peter as the follower of Jesus in John 21.15-17). James is not only given the predicate 'righteous' (cf. Acts 7.52), but is also assigned a role in creation. All these sayings came into being in Jewish-Christian circles where James later became 'the pope of Ebionite fantasy' (H. J. Schoeps)." (Jesus After 2000 Years, p. 596)

F. F. Bruce writes: "This saying originated in a Jewish-Christian setting where James the Just, Jesus' brother, was regarded as the natural leader of Jesus's disciples after Jesus's departure. James was actually leader of the Jerusalem church for fifteen to twenty years, until his death in A.D. 62; his memory was revered and enhanced by legendary embellishments. Here a high estimate is placed on his person: in Jewish thought the world was created for the sake of the Torah, [Assumption of Moses 1.2; Genesis Rabbah 1.25.] although in one rabbinical utterance 'every single person is obliged to say: "The world was created for my sake."' [TB Sanhedrin 37b]" (Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament, pp. 117-118)

Robert Price writes: "So to be called the Pillars indicated quite an exalted status. We can see the same sort of godlike veneration reflected in Thomas, saying 12 . . . 'Wherever you come from' refers to the obligation of missionary apostles to check in with a report to James in Jerusalem, another measure of his importance." (Deconstructing Jesus, p. 53)

Gospel of Thomas Saying 13 Previous - Gospel of Thomas Home - Next This Gospel of Thomas Commentary is part of the Gospel of Thomas page at Early Christian Writings. Nag Hammadi Coptic Text Gospel of Thomas Coptic Text BLATZ (13) Jesus said to his disciples: Compare me, tell me whom I am like. Simon Peter said to him: You are like a righteous angel. Matthew said to him: You are like a wise philosopher. Thomas said to him: Master, my mouth is wholly incapable of saying whom you are like. Jesus said: I am not your master, for you have drunk, and have become drunk from the bubbling spring which I have caused to gush forth (?). And he took him, withdrew, (and) spoke to him three words. Now when Thomas came (back) to his companions, they asked him: What did Jesus say to you? Thomas said to them: If I tell you one of the words which he said to me, you will take up stones (and) throw them at me; and a fire will come out of the stones (and) burn you up. LAYTON (13) Jesus said to his disciples, "Compare me to something and tell me what I resemble." Simon Peter said to him, "A just angel is what you resemble." Matthew said to him, "An intelligent philosopher is what you resemble." Thomas said to him, "Teacher, my mouth utterly will not let me say what you resemble." Jesus said, "I am not your (sing.) teacher, for you have drunk and become intoxicated from the bubbling wellspring that I have personally measured out. And he took him, withdrew, and said three sayings to him. Now, when Thomas came to his companions they asked him, "What did Jesus say to you?" Thomas said to them, "If I say to you (plur.) one of the sayings that he said to me, you will take stones and stone me, and fire will come out of the stones and burn you up." DORESSE 14 [13]. Jesus says to his disciples: "Compare me, and tell me whom I am like." Simon Peter says to him: "Thou art like a just angel!" Matthew says to him: "Thou art like a wise man and a philosopher!" Thomas says to him: "Master, my tongue cannot find words to say whom thou art like." Jesus says: "I am no longer thy master; for thou hast drunk, thou art inebriated from the bubbling spring which is mine and which I sent forth." Then he took him aside; he said three words to him. And when Thomas came back to his companions, they asked him: "What did Jesus say to thee?" And Thomas answered them: "If I tell you one of the words he said to me, you will take up stones and throw them at me, and fire will come out of the stones and consume you!" Funk's Parallels GThom 28, Luke 9:18-22, Luke 21:34-36, Matt 16:13-20, John 4:13-15, John 7:38, Mark 8:27-30. Visitor Comments Compare this to the descriptions of the acknowledging of the enlightenment of Zen students by the Master. They are received into the brotherhood of equals. They too now speak in ways which are not comprehensible to the as yet unenlightened (and which might be resented by former fellow students). They also now know the secret words of a revolutionary understanding of Reality. Thomas is being acknowledged as having caught on to Jesus message. - active-mystic All Christologies are false. Spiritual truth is ineffable. One speaks to the ignorant in the terms with which they are familiar, precept upon precept and line by line. But they are scandalized at the first word of truth. - Simon Magus It's easy to see that Jesus spoke three words in Hebrew to Thomas, in English this is the meaning of these words: "I am who I am." - Dark Soul The teacher is of God, who has no attributes being above them as the creator of all attributes. He cannot therefore be resembled to anything. Thomas had learnt this. He was now ready for secret [confidential or private] wisdom to be imparted. But that wisdom would, and always will be, misinterpreted by those who have not developed thus far. It is an issue of readiness - Thief37 Jesus told Thomas that he, along with everyone and everything comprise God and therefore he was the son of God and a part of God. Thomas is making some fun out of this while relating it to the other disciples. Thomas does not believe what Jesus told him and he knows the other disciples will turn against him because they will think he is lying to them. - iag 3 words: I AM ALL - newbie I too noticed the similarity of this saying to the Zen master who asked his three disciples how they would teach after he was gone. He said one was his skin, one his muscle, and one his marrow. The Essenes had several levels of esoteric teaching and this story clearly shows Jesus the Nazorean Essene testing his disciples if they are ready for the next level of teaching. Thomas passes and receives the three sayings which, being esoteric, would get him stoned for blasphamy. The last phrase is also quite Zen. A Samurai asked Hakuin is there really heaven and hell. Hakuin insulted the Samurai who drew his sword whereupon Hakuin said "Thus opens the gate of Hell." Thomas here is saying if the disciples did succumb to throwing rocks, either in envy or in righteousness of the law, that they would be opening up hell for themselves and they would burn in it. - Gregory Wonderwheel Jesus asked, Describe your thoughts about me. Simon Peter spoke of a righteous (just) angel. Matthew spoke of a wise philosopher. Thomas said, "there are no words or concepts that my mouth can frame." Jesus said that they were drunk on the joy, truth and honor of being his students. He took Thomas aside and spoke three "words/sayings" (concepts beyond the teachings that the disciples understood) to him. On being asked about the private communication with their teacher, Thomas replied, "a single one of them would make you want to stone me, but the desire to do so would burn you to the core." Thomas understood somethings that none of the others could conceive, and knowing this, he could not see his righteous brethren hurt by revealing the depth of these concepts, that Jesus was no more or less than any of them, that he had learned that God had given his Word to all the World and anyone could learn their place as the Child of God if the mind and heart were open enough. Any of these concepts would seem blasphemy to those of simpler minds, who were already swimming with the greatness of Jesus' teaching. - StarChaser Has it ever occured to anyone that the three words or sayings spoken to Thomas are the things that Jesus then told the disciples in saying 14? It would have been heresy if Thomas had said such things to pious Jews like Peter and Matthew, and their outrage would have been like stones bursting into flames. But Jesus can speak them and they must listen even if they don't understand. - Griffin Jesus, the Master, has accepted Thomas as his Chela (disciple) because he clearly understood what Jesus represented. The others didn't. The Master provides a personal mantra at intiation, here three words...but I suspect more words. The words are personal, absolutely, and have the power of Jesus (Master, Guru) behind them. The words are for the personal growth of the Chela, and not for the others. They are the key to his further enlightenment, and the connection to the Holy Ghost. - Petrus All things imply their negation. This is not that. The One has no negations. It is All. Can you describe what All is like? Neither could Thomas. - nothing Scholarly Quotes Marvin Meyer writes: "These three sayings or words are unknown, but presumably they are powerful and provocative sayings, since stoning (mentioned by Thomas) was the Jewish punishment for blasphemy. Worth noting are the following examples of three words or sayings: Hippolytus, Refutation of All Heresies 5.8.4, cites the three words Kaulakau, Saulasau, Zeesar, derived from the Hebrew of Isaiah 28:10, 13; Pistis Sophia 136 mentions Yao Yao Yao, the Greek version (with three letters, given three times) of the ineffable name of God; the Gospel of Bartholomew and the Secret Book of John provide statements of identification with the father, the mother (or the holy spirit), and the son. Acts of Thomas 47 and Manichaean Kephalaia I 5,26-34 also refer to the three sayings or words but do not disclose precisely what they were." (The Gospel of Thomas: The Hidden Sayings of Jesus, pp. 74-75) Robert Price writes: "In Thomas' version (saying 13), the false estimates of Jesus are even more interesting. Jesus spurns the opinion of those self-styled believers who consider him 'a wise philosopher.' Bingo! A wandering Cynic. (Thomas also has Jesus reject the idea, widely held by many early Christians, that he was an angel in human form.)" (Deconstructing Jesus, p. 51) Robert M. Grant and David Noel Freedman write: "the Old Testament and its eschatology have been eliminated; Jesus is no Messiah but 'like a righteous angel,' 'like a wise philosopher,' or simply incomparable." (Gnosticism & Early Christianity, p. 186) R. McL. Wilson writes: "As Grant and Freedman note, the idea is similar to that of John xv. 15, while the reference to 'bubbling spring' also recalls Johannine texts. It may be, however, that we have also some connection here with the Philonic idea of a 'sober intoxication.' Thereafter Jesus takes Thomas aside and speaks to him three words. When the other disciples ask what Jesus said, Thomas replies, 'If I tell you one of the words which He said to me, you will take up stones and throw them at me; and a fire will come out of the stones and burn you up.' It may be significant that while there are several references in the New Testament to stoning or casting stones it is only John who speaks of taking up stones to throw (viii. 59, x. 31). About the three words we can only speculate, but they were evidently blasphemous to Jewish ears. Puech suggests that they were the names 'Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,' Grant and Freedman the three secret words of the Naassenes (Hippol., Ref. 5.8.5). The whole passage is at any rate a substitute for the canonical narrative of Peter's confession, designed to give to Thomas the pre-eminence." (Studies in the Gospel of Thomas, pp. 111-112) F. F. Bruce writes: "This conversation begins like that at Caesarea Philippi, recorded in all three Synoptic Gospels, where Jesus asks his disciples 'Who do men say that I am?' and then: 'But who do you say that I am?' (Mark 8.27-29). But the answers given here are quite different from what we find in the canonical tradition, which is consistent with the historical circumstances of Jesus's ministry. Here the answers are attempts to depict Jesus as the Gnostic Revealer. Those who have imbibed the gnosis which he imparts (the 'bubbling spring' which he has spread abroad) are not his servants but his friends, [Cf. John 15.14] and therefore 'Master' is an unsuitable title for them to give him. As for the three words spoken secretly to Thomas, conveying Jesus's hidden identity, they are probably the three secret words on which, according to the Naassenes, the existence of the world depended: Kaulakau, Saulasau, Zeesar. [Hippolytus, Refutation v.8.4. Kaulakau, they said, was Adamas, primal man, 'the being who is on high' . . . Saulasau, mortal man here below; Zeesar, the Jordan which flows upward.] (In fact, these three words are corruptions of the Hebrew phrases in Isaiah 28.10, 13, translated 'Line upon line, precept upon precept, there a little' - but their origin was probably forgotten.) The followers of the Gnostic Basilides are said to have taught that Jesus descended 'in the name of Kaulakau'. [Irenaeus, Heresies i.24.6.] The fire that would come out of the stones is perhaps the fire of Saying 10. There is in any case ample attestation of the belief that the untimely divulging of a holy mystery can be as destructive as fire." (Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament, pp. 118-119) Robert M. Grant and David Noel Freedman write: "In the synoptics, various erroneous interpretations precede the correct one. Jesus is John the Baptist, or Elijah, Jeremiah, or some other prophet risen again. So in Thomas, Simon Peter wrongly compares Jesus with an angel (a belief widespread in early Jewish Christianity) and Matthew wrongly compares him with a wise philosopher. Thomas rightly says that to compare Jesus with anything is impossible; but as he does so, he addresses him as 'Master.' Thomas, like the man in Mark 10:17 (cf., Luke 18:18) who calls Jesus 'Good Master,' is rebuked because of the title he uses. Because he is a disciple of Jesus, he is not a slave but a friend, for Jesus has made known everything which he heard from his Father (John 15:15). The idea expressed in Thomas is quite similar to that found in John. Jesus is not Thomas's master because Thomas has drunk from the bubbling spring which Jesus has distributed. This thought too is Johannine in origin. 'The water which I will give him will become in him a spring of water bubbling up to eternal life' (John 4:14; cf., 7:37-38)." (The Secret Sayings of Jesus, pp. 132-133) J. P. Meier writes: "An intriguing point here is that in the one work of 'the school of St. Thomas' that clearly dates from the 2d century, namely, the Coptic Gospel of Thomas, Thomas is actually a peripheral figure who hardly belongs to the traditional material in the book. He is introduced as the author of the work in the clearly redactional opening sentence, but figures prominently in only one other logion, the lengthy saying 13, where Simon Peter and Matthew are also mentioned but Thomas is exalted as the possessor of the secret knowledge of Jesus' nature. This logion stands in tension with the rival logion just before it, saying 12, where James the Just (the brother of Jesus) is exalted as the leader of the disciples after Jesus departs. On this tension, see Gilles Quispel, '"The Gospel of Thomas" and the "Gospel of the Hebrews,"' NTS 12 (1965-66) 371-82, esp. 380. Hence the Gospel of Thomas, the earliest apocryphal and gnosticizing work that was put under the name of Thomas, does not present a tradition really rooted in that person and does not clearly inculcate the idea that Thomas is Jesus' twin brother." (A Marginal Jew, v. 3, pp. 255-256, n. 17)

Gospel of Thomas Saying 14

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This Gospel of Thomas Commentary is part of the Gospel of Thomas page at Early Christian Writings.

Nag Hammadi Coptic TextGospel of Thomas Coptic Text

BLATZ

(14) Jesus said to them: If you fast, you will put a sin to your charge; and if you pray, you will be condemned; and if you give alms, you will do harm to your inner spirits. And if you go into any land and walk about in the regions, if they receive you, eat what is set before you; heal the sick among them. For what goes into your mouth will not defile you; but what comes out of your mouth, that is what will defile you.

LAYTON

(14) Jesus said to them, "If you (plur.) fast, you will acquire a sin, and if you pray you will be condemned, and if you give alms, it is evil that you will do unto your spirits. And when you go into any land and travel in the country places, when they receive you eat whatever they serve to you. Heal those among them who are sick. For, nothing that enters your mouth will defile you (plur.). Rather, it is precisely what comes out of your mouth that will defile you."

DORESSE

15 [14]. Jesus says to them: "When you fast, you will beget sin for yourselves; when you pray, you will be condemned; when you give alms, you will do evil to your souls! <But> when you enter any land and travel over the country, when you are welcomed eat what is put before you; those who are ill in those places, heal them. For what enters into your mouth will not defile you, but what comes out of your mouth, it is that which will defile you!"

Funk's Parallels

POxy 654 6:1, GThom 6:1, POxy1 27, GThom 27, GThom 104, Luke 11:1-4, Luke 9:1-6, Luke 10:1-12, Matt 6:2-4, Matt 6:5-15, Matt 6:16-18, Matt 10:5-15, Matt 15:10-20, Mark 6:7-13, Mark 7:14-23, Did 8:1-3, POxy 1224 2, 1 Cor 10:27, Acts 10:9-16, Acts 11:1-10.

Visitor Comments

The ego has the capacity to turn any form of piety or religious ritual into an idol. The ego never heals.
- dustonthepath

Religious practices and taboos are part of the meaningless illusion of the world. Remember that what you do to another you have done to yourself and God. Everything that you do is part of your ongoing prayer dialogue with God.
- active-mystic

Too often self-righteousness stems from charity.
- thinking aloud

The person who fasts does not truly fast. The person who prays is not sincere. The giver of alms is removed from the receiver. When you are received receive what is given. Help the afflicted, but do not speak. Do not kill truth.
- Simon Magus

1. Fasting is not taking that which you have (been given) and can be seen as a form of waste. If you have no food you cannot fast 2. Praying is asking for affirmations. Something which a true believer does not need. 3. Giving alms to someone in need suggest that the person is capable of doing more, or something else, to ease someone's suffering. . in my opinion: Always help the ones in need, ask nothing in return and be grateful for that what is given to you. I think this all refers to another part of the text that states that: in order to be able to see the big picture you should always be aware of that what is in front of you.
- ajee

This seems to be a direct answer to saying #6, and #6 seems to be questions that the disciples are asking because they know that by following the teachings of Jesus, they are no longer practicing Judaism. They are asking what their new 'religion' asks of them, what rules it may have, and this is the answer to that.
- gnosis

The essence of this passage is that one goes the wrong way by trying to do good things. Instead one should do what is natural and proper to one's nature and spirit, and true virtue will develop of its own accord. To eat what is set before you extends by analogy to the way in which one transacts with the world. One should not be averse to that which is. One should be willing to swallow whatever comes along and be fed by it.
- slur

We speak from the abundance of what is in our hearts. It isn't what we eat or abstain from eating or doing publicly that defiles us, but that which is in our hearts and proceeds from our mouths that defiles us.
- seeking

Be strong in the material world, but don't let it suck you in. Act like the noble spirit you are at all times.
- Zooie

Do, say, be what is right in the present. Do not limit yourself by restictions. Act for the common good, for the longtime consequences, not for immediate satisfaction and pleasure.
- Maitreya

Scholarly Quotes

Robert M. Grant and David Noel Freedman write: "Positive proof that he did so [copy from the canonical gospels] seems to be provided in Saying 14. . . . The statement about healing the sick has nothing to do with the context in Thomas; it is relevant only in Luke's collection of sayings. Therefore, Thomas copied it from Luke." (Gnosticism & Early Christianity, pp. 185-186)

Gerd Ludemann writes: "This develops the notion of v. 4 about eating all that is set before one, and gives a reason for it. The dependence on Luke 10.7-8 in v. 4 also decides positively the dependence of v. 5 on Mark 7.15. For the invitation to heal the sick does not fit in v. 4 at all, and is best explained by the use of Luke 10.9." (Jesus After 2000 Years, p. 597)

F. F. Bruce writes: "Fasting, prayer and almsgiving (cf. Saying 6) are three forms of piety mentioned in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 6.1-18), but the instructions given here are quite different from those given there. Such pious activities, it appears, are superfluous and indeed harmful for the true Gnostic. (Similar sentiments about prayer and fasting are expressed in saying 104.) The second and third sentences in the saying are respectively parallel to Luke 10.8 f. and Matthew 15.11 (cf. Mark 7.15). The addition of the injunction 'eat what is set before you' of the words denying that food conveys defilement underlines the relevance of the injunction to the Gentile mission (cf. Acts 10.15; 1 Corinthians 10.27)." (Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament, p. 119)

Robert M. Grant and David Noel Freedman write: "This saying deals with subjects already brought up in Saying 5: fasting, prayer, almsgiving, and dietary observances. Here the statements ascribed to Jesus are more explicit than they were before. Fasting produces sin; prayer results in condemnation; almsgiving harms the spirit. Some ground for Thomas's notion is given in Mark 2:18-20 (Matthew 9:14-15; Luke 5:33-35), where Jesus says that the sons of the bridechamber cannot fast while he is with them. Since Thomas regards the kingdom as present rather than future, fasting (a fortiori, prayer, almsgiving, and dietary laws) is pointless and, indeed, sinful." (The Secret Sayings of Jesus, pp. 134-135)

R. McL. Wilson writes: "As Grant has pointed out, the condemnation at the beginning of this saying takes up three phrases from the Sermon on the Mount [Matt. vi. 16 (fasting), 5 (prayer), and 2 (alms)] in the reverse order; and such reversal of the order is characteristic of Naassene usage. In the passage quoted the opening words are a general summary of the charge to the Seventy in Luke x. 1, followed by Luke x. 8-9 ('if they receive you . . .'). The final sentence has its parallel in Matthew xv. 11, but it may be added that Luke x. 2 is logion 73. In this case Grant and Freedman would appear to be correct in suggesting that the saying 'seems to prove that Thomas used our gospels.' The significant feature is the inclusion of Luke x. 9, the injunction to heal the sick, which is quite out of place in a saying concerned with dietary restrictions, but is easily explained from the Lucan context. There is, however, one point which they have overlooked: in the Gospels the specific injunction 'eat what they set before you' is peculiar to Luke, but Creed notes that there is 'striking resemblance in language' in the Lucan passage to 1 Corinthians x. 27, and that 'it is not unlikely that St. Paul's language is an echo of this injunction,' although the application is quite different. If Paul is quoting and adapting a saying of Jesus, this would point us back to the tradition underlying Luke." (Studies in the Gospel of Thomas, pp. 71-72)

Kurt Rudolph writes: "Even more trenchantly the Jewish laws mentioned in logion 14 are made out to be of no consequence, indeed as detrimental to salvation: Fasting gives rise to sin, praying to condemnation, the giving of alms to harming one's spirit; one should eat everything that is set before one. It is important to heal the sick, by which probably the ignorant are referred to. The saying concludes with a quotation from Mark's Gospel; later still Luke's as well as Matthew's Gospel are brought in on this question. Of sole importance is the 'fast as regards the world' because only that leads to the 'kingdom'. The 'great fast' is taken in this sense also by the Mandaeans: It is no external abstention from eating and drinking but a cessation from inquisitiveness, lies, hatred, jealousy, discord, murder, theft, adultery, the worship of images and idols." (Gnosis, p. 263)

Helmut Koester writes: "The basic difference between Thomas and Mark is that Mark states the second half in general terms ('what comes out of a human being'), while Thomas specifies 'what comes out of your mouth.' In this respect Thomas agrees with the form of this saying in Matt 15:11 ('but what comes out of the mouth defiles a human being'). This might argue for a dependence of Thomas upon Matthew. However, the Matthew/Thomas form of this saying is most likely original: the first half of the saying requires that the second half speaks about words which the mouth utters, not excrements (see Mark 7:19). Moreover, what the Gospel of Thomas quotes here is the one single saying from the entire pericope that can be considered as a traditional piece and that formed the basis of the original apophthegma - consisting of vss. 1-2, 5, and 15 - out of which the present complex text of Mark 7:1-23 has been developed." (Ancient Christian Gospels, pp. 111-112)

J. D. Crossan writes: "The Thomastic version is obviously closer to the Matthean-Lukan [Mt 23:25-26, Lk 11:39-40] than to the Markan [Mk 7:15] since it has the going into the mouth/coming out of the mouth dichotomy rather than the outside/inside distinction. It has been argued that this proves that 'the Gospel of Thomas here follows Matthew' and is dependent on him (McArthur 1960:286; see Schrage: 55; Menard, 1975:101). But this does not explain why the Synoptic texts are in the third person while the Thomistic version is in the second person (Sieber: 193)." (In Fragments, pp. 253-254)

J. D. Crossan writes: "The accusation concerning washing is made against Jesus in Q ( = Luke 11:38) and he replies, naturally, in the second person in Q/Luke 11:39-40 = Matt. 23:25-26, but this has become an accusation against Jesus' disciples in Mark 7:1-2, 5 to which the aphorism in 7:15 speaks in the third person. The general tendency of the tradition is to change an attack on Jesus into an attack on his disciples (Bultmann: 48). This development appears concerning washing as Q ( = Luke 11:38) reappears in Mark 7:1-2, 5, and also concerning eating as Gos. Thom. 4c reappears in Matt. 15:11 (17, 18). 'It seems more likely, therefore, that the second person, a defence of Jesus himself, is the original' (Sieber: 193)." (In Fragments, p. 254)

Gospel of Thomas Saying 15

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This Gospel of Thomas Commentary is part of the Gospel of Thomas page at Early Christian Writings.

Nag Hammadi Coptic TextGospel of Thomas Coptic Text

BLATZ

(15) Jesus said: When you see him who was not born of woman, fall down upon your faces and worship him; that one is your Father.

LAYTON

(15) Jesus said, "When you (plur.) see one who has not been born of woman, fall upon your faces and prostrate yourselves before that one: it is that one who is your father."

DORESSE

16 [15]. Jesus says: "When you see Him who has not been born of woman, bow down face to the earth and adore Him: He is your father!"

Funk's Parallels

Manichaean Psalm Book 121,25-33.

Visitor Comments

Compare with Qur'an, 17-61.
- dustonthepath

See also Qur'an, 25:2.
- dustonthepath

We are all not born in our true nature as souls. When you have achieved contact with your soul you have achieved contact with God. There is only One of us.
- active-mystic

When you apprehend the living one who is not of the dead world, drop your personal masks and worship Him. That is the source of all life.
- Simon Magus

This refers to the innate adult self, which develops with puberty; but I wouldn't advise you to worship it, as it is yourself and should not be idolised.
- Rodney

Perhaps it is the ego that is born of a woman; when we come to know That which is All, That which is not born but Is, That which defies the illusion of separateness that our born ego endures, then should we worship That.
- LJewel

Reminds me of the koan "...what was your true face before your mother was born?". We have identified ourselves with our material forms, sensations and thoughts. We are urged to go beyond this illusion.
- Zooie

The true teacher is certainly born of earthly woman. But he has transcended his lower nature [commanding self, nafs-i-ammara] and so is reborn. So it is correct to say he is not born of woman.
- Thief37

Woman can be generally broken down to that which produces a body from within its body - the creative aspect of the self. The development of one's personality, knowledge of self/other, the worldly vision, etc., are fruits of this creative womb. Meditative practice is said to bring forth the experience of 'emptiness' which lies outside of the realm of interdependence where knowledge exists. It is to this emptiness that Jesus alludes.
- slur

This provides incontrovertible evidence that Shakespeare was a closet Gnostic (cf. Macbeth, 5.8--"I bear a charmed life, which must not yield, / To one of woman born").
- hypertextualist

This passage says to bow to no man and believe in you until you meet someone who had no physical mother, obviously a non-existent human.
- David

As disciples, you will cross paths with many souls. If you encounter one who is so different that he or she could not have been born of woman (no man that you are likely to meet in this world) only then bow your face to the ground and worship the Adonai [Lord].
- StarChaser

Translation: "When males can circumvent the natural dependence on females for reproduction then they become gods."
- postmodernkid

The one not born of woman is the inner true self, the spirit, the I. When you see the I, which isn't something you will perceive with your eyes, recognize your true self!
- Maitreya

Scholarly Quotes

Marvin Meyer says that "Manichaean Psalm Book 121,25-33 also declares an identity between the father and the one not of human birth" and quotes: "[I] hear that you are in your father (and) your father hidden in [you]. My Master. [When I say], 'The son was [begotten],' I [shall] find [the] father also beside him. My master. Shall I destroy a kingdom that I may provide a womb of a woman? My master. Your holy womb is the luminaries that conceive you. In the trees and the fruit is your holy body. My master Jesus." (The Gospel of Thomas: The Hidden Sayings of Jesus, pp. 75-76)

Funk and Hoover write: "There are no parallels to this saying in early Christian or gnostic tradition. Among some gnostic groups, the highest god is referred to as the 'unbegotten' (one not born), since birth would imply that the god was finite. This may be the background of the saying. Another possibility is this: Jesus may here be equating himself with the Father, as he sometimes does in the Gospel of John (10:30; 14:9). In either case, the Fellows took this to reflect later Christian or gnostic tradition." (The Five Gospels, p. 482)

Robert M. Grant: "Man who is born of woman is subject to sin, according to Job 14:1, as Doresse notes (page 143). The greatest of those born of women was John the Baptist (Matthew 11:11; Luke 7:28). Therefore, for our Gnostic (as for other Gnostics), Jesus cannot have been born of a woman (in spite of the fact that Paul says he was - Galatians 4:4). Of course it is possible that like some Gnostic teachers he held that while Jesus was born of a woman, the spiritual Christ descended upon him at the time of his baptism; the Naassenes believed that the threefold being descended upon Jesus. In any event, the one not born of woman is to be worshipped, since he is the (heavenly) Father. This conclusion seems to reflect the words of John 14:9: 'He who has seen me has seen the Father' (cf., John 10:30: 'I and the Father are one')." (The Secret Sayings of Jesus, p. 135)

F. F. Bruce writes: "But for the last clause, we might have interpreted this saying to mean that Jesus - unlike John the Baptist (cf. Saying 46) - was not born of woman. But whatever the compiler or editor believed about the mode of Jesus's coming into the world (see Saying 19a), this is probably not in view here, since Jesus and the Father are distinguished (cf. Saying 3). Even so, he would no doubt have drawn his own conclusions from such a saying of Jesus as that of John 10.30: 'I and the Father are one.' The Father is in any case the unbegotten One." (Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament, pp. 119-120)

Gospel of Thomas Saying 16

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This Gospel of Thomas Commentary is part of the Gospel of Thomas page at Early Christian Writings.

Nag Hammadi Coptic TextGospel of Thomas Coptic Text

BLATZ

(16) Jesus said: Perhaps men think that I am come to cast peace upon the world; and they do not know that I am come to cast dissensions upon the earth, fire, sword, war. For there will be five who are in a house; three shall be against two and two against three, the father against the son and the son against the father, and they shall stand as solitaries.

LAYTON

(16) Jesus said, "People probably think that it is peace that I have come to impose upon the world. And they do not recognize that it is divisions that I have come to impose upon the earth - fire, sword, battle. Indeed, there will be five in a house. There will be three over two and two over three, parent over child and child over parent. And they will stand at rest by being solitaries."

DORESSE

17 [16]. Jesus says: "Men indeed think I have come to bring peace to the world. But they do not know that I have come to bring the world discord, fire, sword, war. Indeed, if there are five <people> in a house, they will become three against two and two against three - father against son and son against father - and they will be lifted up, being solitaries."

Funk's Parallels

GThom 10, Mic 7:5-6, Luke 12:49-53, Matt 10:34-39, Mark 13:12.

Visitor Comments

Jesus' revolutionary message of our true nature and relationship to God is only slowly being realized and spread. The message will in fact create strife until it is recognized by a sufficient number who then realize their true nature and place in the world and Reality.
- active-mystic

active-mystic, you are reading your own opinions in this text. It is stated: "and they will be lifted up, being solitaries," meaning that there is an "ascending" as individuals.
- Puam

I think it means, however much the religious choose not to agree, that Jesus was saying: I'm not here for peace for everyone. I know that me being here means that people are going to kill one another. That's my purpose. It sounds awful but that's what it sounds like.
- Five_crowss

IMHO what Jesus is saying here is that he is not come to cast peace upon the world, but upon individuals. There is a dichotomy in the gospels between the peace in the individual which Jesus promises and the peace in the world which he knows (prophetically) he cannot bring.
- Ed

Reminds me of the buddha's declaration "seek thy own salvation with diligence." "They will stand at rest as solitaries," i.e., take care of your own relationship with god don't worry whether your brother has it right.
- pup

When one contacts one's repressed emotions, strife and dissension break out within one. One's various attitudes are at war among themselves and the grownup self is at war with the learned attitudes of the child.
- Rodney

To rebel is to Question. There is a dichotomy- between inner peace and outer struggle. Jesus can Help bring peace to individuals, but it is up to individuals to make peace with eace other. Einstein wrote, "Peace cannot be kept by force, it can only be achieved through understanding."
- Taurus

Mankind as a whole (one) had all been separated from God. He has come to separate us from that fallen state, not to give us peace with it. This carries us back to the question in saying 11 "But when you become two, what will you do?"
- seeking

In order that any Saint can take his disciples back to their spiritual home, He has to cut their attachments to all people, places, ideas and feelings of this earthly world. If there are any attachments remaining in your mind at the time of death, these will be the cause of another rebirth into this world. When all attachments have gone then each aspirant becomes solitary and is pure enough to rise to higher planes of consciousness and become one with the One.
- Condor

Scholarly Quotes

Marvin Meyer writes: "The theme of standing, or stability, is found in Gospel of Thomas sayings 16, 18, 23, 28, and 50. According to accounts concerning the famous gnostic teacher Simon the Magician, he referred to himself as the standing one. The Nag Hammadi tractate entitled Three Steles of Seth applies this epithet to the divine, and adds that God 'was first to stand' (119,17-18)." (The Gospel of Thomas: The Hidden Sayings of Jesus, p. 76)

Robert M. Grant and David Noel Freedman write: "This saying is surprising when compared with the others which speak of peace and unity, for here Jesus plainly speaks of himself as a 'divider.' The two ideas can be reconciled, however, for peace and unity are characteristic of believers, Gnostic or Christian, while the division is that which comes into existence between them and outsiders. The saying is based on Luke 12:51-53 (Matthew 10:34); Luke 12:49 has already been paraphrased in Saying 9. 'Perhaps men think' is derived from Luke's question, 'Do you suppose . . . ?' 'I came to cast peace' comes from Matthew, while 'I came to case division' is composed by the author of Thomas as a parallel to the preceding line, and to Luke 12:49, from which he derives the mention of 'fire' ('sword' comes from Matthew). The next sentence is an almost exact quotation of Luke 12:52-53, though references to divisions among women are omitted because 'women are not worthy of life' (Saying 112). Those who 'stand' (and will not taste death, cf., Saying 18 and Commentary) are those who have broken their ties with earthly families and are 'single ones' (cf., Sayings 50 and 75). They must hate father, mother, brothers, and sisters (Sayings 56 and 98)." (The Secret Sayings of Jesus, pp. 136-137)

Helmut Koester writes: "Thomas's version of these sayings [10 and 16] lacks Luke 12:50, certainly an addition by the author of the Gospel. Also missing in the Gospel of Thomas is the pedantic, and certainly secondary, enlargement of the family relationships at the end of Luke 12:53. Instead of Luke's "division" (vs. 51), Gos. Thom. has 'fire, sword, and war,' probably an expansion of the original reading of Q, 'sword,' which is preserved in Matt 10:14." (Ancient Christian Gospels, p. 94)

Funk and Hoover write: "The saying has been varied in the three sources: Luke appears to be the middle term between Matthew and Thomas. All three versions are 'I have come' sayings, which, in the judgment of most Fellows, is a Christian formulation: Jesus is represented as sent from God to fulfill a specific mission ('I have come to . . .'). The Fellows doubt that Jesu spoke of himself in this way, because they doubt that he thought of himself as having been assigned a messianic role. Further, part of this passage is based on Mic 7:5-6. Thomas has considerably revised this group of sayings from its Q form, which the Fellows took to be the more original. It is the form, not the content, of this complex that Fellows could not attribute to Jesus." (The Five Gospels, p. 482)

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76 posted on 03/02/2014 11:28:06 AM PST by TigersEye (Stupid is a Progressive disease.)
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