[Borges]

The vocal writing in the Ode to Joy is simply brutal. Ask anyone who has sung in it. Verdi thought it was inept. And Verdi knew a lot more about writing for the voice than Beethoven did. The Choral Fantasy is a cliche addled and third rate. Mozart never wrote any bad music. Beethoven wrote a fair amount of it. The point is that Beethoven’s music has flaws. Mozart’s does not. I would put both Bach and Mozart above Beethoven.

[Sirius Lee]

I would put both Bach and Mozart above Beethoven.

I would put Bach above everybody, including Wolfie.

[dfwgator]

"Ahhh, Bach!"

[IronJack]

You are either tone-deaf or addled yourself. Short of the Celestial Choir, there is NO ONE "above" Beethoven.

If the Choral Fantasy is "cliche-addled," what is "Magic Flute?" Mozart himself admitted he was embarrassed by its mediocrity. Besides the Jupiter, name another symphony of Mozart's that compares to Beethoven's Fifth, the Eroica, or even the Pastorale? And then there are the incomparable Beethoven piano works, his superlative Violin Concerto, and pieces like the Egmont Overture, Consecration of the House, and the Seventh.

Mozart wrote plenty of flawed -- and forgettable -- music. He was barely in the same league as Beethoven, and certainly nowhere near his master. Because Beethoven had none.

[stephenjohnbanker]

” I would put both Bach and Mozart above Beethoven.”

Bump!

[EveningStar]

Beethoven wrote a fair amount of [bad music].

I always enjoy your insight. What other pieces besides the Choral Fantasy do you consider to be "bad" Beethoven? (for instance, I've read some negative things about the Triple Concerto and Wellington's Victory)