Posted on 05/22/2015 4:45:51 AM PDT by MadIsh32
Having said that, there are some practical reasons why I don’t think that any church should ever allow any one person on their own to ever be in contact with kids right up into their teens at any time….. there are a host of reasons for this beyond potential molestation not the least of which is that in the interest of checks and balances, there should also be a second person involved simply to make sure that the ministry is sound. When our children were in Sunday school and on weekend outings involving the church, I always wanted to know who the adults were that would be present…typically a couple of youth leaders from the church plus one parent at an absolute minimum for any event. Many churches have placed too influence in the hands of one person (the wolf that came into the church) and found out later what a horrible mistake it was…..and that is a much more grievous situation and occurs way to frequently even with people who up to that point had a ‘clean record’. By the same token and from a slightly different angle, I believe that it is a serious mistake for any church to essentially be a ‘one man pastoral team’ and in fact, a contrary view can be easily challenged from scripture. In the King James Version, the word pastor never exists in the singular…. only in the plural and I take away a meaning from this that churches should always have a minimum of two pastors involved.
“...They belong in prison for what they did...”
Well, the official crime listed by the State Police (when they turned their own son in) is a 4th degree misdemeanor.
So however much prison time does a 4th degree misdemeanor get you in AR?
As far as concealing, they brought it to the attention of the State Police and their church elders *AT A MINIMUM*. That they did not take out a newspaper ad or suggest a TV special and announce it for the public’s enjoyment is by no means “concealing” anything.
10 years ago the boy was a perv, the family found out, turned him in to the law and confessed it to the church elders. At no time did anyone deny anything - the boy or the family - and even today they are not denying it. I can’t imagine any other family doing half of that in a similar situation. I’d bet most would *desperately* want it to never be spoken of again, would deal with it internally without involving the cops and dang sure would not go confess it to their *church*!!
So you can have a problem with the boy for being a misdemeanor perv a decade or more ago. You can have a problem with the cops for dereliction of duty in failing to prosecute a 4th deg misdemeanor that was brought to their attention. But to condemn the whole family is a stretch by any reasonable and prudent person. The boy has resigned his position and *again* is not denying anything.
Yet you asset, “...They belong in prison for what they did...”. Somehow I think if the whole family was tossed in jail for 4th degree misdemeanors, you still wouldn’t be satisfied.
Personally, I have no problem punishing the boy according to the law. I also think he will now suffer far more than the average 4th deg misdemeanor punishment would have inflicted *by law*. But the parents and the family did more than most any other family would do in that situation which *still* wasn’t enough for some folks. I refuse to condemn the whole family for the sins of the boy. Apparently with folks like you, opinions vary. And I will leave it at that.
Even with the best of chaperones, kids wanting to get alone have managed to get alone.
I guarantee you that you will kill a youth program (and a church) by putting a known child molester in a role with children.
Better a millstone be tied around my neck than for me to harm one of these little ones.
What you are supporting is the notion that the forgiven do not sin again. I know you don’t actually believe that. Christians do continue to sin. We should be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. “If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves....”
Galatians 4:5 “To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.” ALL have sinned under the law…. whether we think of those sins as large or small. But we can all be forgiven of sins and become sons of God.
Philippians 2:15 “That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;” And who are these blameless and harmless sons of God? All those who are truly born again! If God has declared them to be ‘harmless and blameless, on what grounds is it appropriate to continue to believe that they have remained ‘harmful’ and ‘with blame’? And does God differentiate between those who are called His sons i.e. there are some fully vested sons and some that are only partway vested? I don’t think so….a son is a son is a son.
What I believe is the power of God. I don’t believe in a half-hearted power of God…I believe that the power of God is as powerful as our faith is in that power. Corinthians 2:5 “That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.”
John 1:12 “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:” And what does it take to be one of the sons of God? Just receive Christ….
I guarantee you that you will kill a youth program (and a church) by upholding a belief that does not embrace the full redemption of sinners and does not embrace the full power of an almighty God. 2 Timothy 3:5 “Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.” May I suggest that what you are suggesting is the administration of a church using man’s ideas and concepts of continued distrust in the sinner. Sort of a once a cheater, always a cheater but more broadly applied….as opposed to relying on God’s power and his concept of ‘remembering it no more’.
I am being a realist. Jesus did say to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. If you read the letters to the Corinthians, you will find the Apostle Paul chastising Christians who are living in sin. Therefore, as a pastor my responsibility is to protect the flock.
2 Timothy 4:2 “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.”
Colossians 1:28 “Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:”
Question for you…. Based on his past history, should Paul have ever have been a preacher, a pastor or have any role in the church?
“It’s OK, his wife says she knows about his past and she’s totally cool with it.
Yikes.”
Now that the gravy train has derailed she may be having second thoughts.
Thank you for you very cogent reply. This is the crux of this. Liberal Christian haters are basically conducting a public “stoning” right now of this family without offering any idea about what the true and best actions should have been.
And we likely have this going on now all over the world , in many households every single day, yet no major condemnation of any kind being issued forth from the same people.
In my own opinion, as heart wrenching as this story has been, maybe God will use it for good to open up a dialogue about this terrible issue. One in four women report being molested in childhood, or worse. No one talks about it, though.
I myself was sexually abused by my stepfather. To say that it affected my life is putting it mildly. I’ve suffered horrible self esteem issues and depression off and on for decades. It IS like a murder, of sorts.... It kills a child’s innocence and trust of others.
So again, I pray God uses this to open up a dialog and make for some change on this issue for some good.
Gosh, though ..... Could you imagine being at home and watching the police come and take your son away? How horrid .... And where would they take him? Should you have choice? It seems the Duggars were trying to control the consequences for their son ..... But this just can’t be.
Then again, the same thing would happen if your son was 14 and committed a murder....
Gut Wrenching all around.
The more I think about it the more I believe the family were accomplices.... They wanted to handle it their own way .... You can’t do that. Too many families want to “handle it” their own way .... That’s the problem!
Being realistic is a biblical concept in that reality is truth.
Beyond that, there are some requirements for pastor in scripture itself. We are enjoined to be on our guard.
Acts 20: 25 “Now I know that none of you among whom I have gone about preaching the kingdom will ever see me again. 26 Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of any of you. 27 For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God. 28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God,[a] which he bought with his own blood.[b] 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.
Paul, not a child molester, was a pharisaical zealot who imprisoned Christians and was participant in the death of others...notably Stephen. His reputation did have an impact. The people in that area didn’t trust him. He left there becauwse of their fear, and then went home for a number of years. Barnabas sought him out for an entirely different ministry among different people.
Here is the example to follow: John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.
Exactly. That is why for many crimes if you hide the criminal after the fact, you become part Of the crime. Children need to be taught how wrong it is and how if they are post puberty and even do this once, they may lose their family, if not their life. Child molestation is even hated by murderers.
When you think of the dynamics of when the main breadwinner of the family is the perpetrator ....then you can understand how many spouses, usually women — would hesitate to “notify the authorities.” To do so would mean a loss of income and support as well.
At least this was the case in my own family.
So it was best to keep things quiet. The problem is, you have to sell out your kids to do so.
It’s a vicious cycle in many lives and many families.
Yes, what a hellish situation.
Anyone who molests the innocent is not deserving of space on this planet. That goes for those who molest the elderly, and Bill Cosby who molests the unconscious.
The corner stone of the Gothard system is a system of “authorities” within family and church that excludes outsiders. Not surprisingly this has attracted abusive families that can silence victims. Imprison victims with perpetrators. The teachings of IBYC demand culpability from victims as well as perpetrators, all within a cone of silence. The teachings go farther and demand “a good report” to anyone asking about family members.
If you are interested in reading about what the Duggar family ascribed to go to this link. Recoveringgrace.org. this web site was set up by former inmates... er participants of the Institue for Basic Youth Conflicts, the Bill Gothard movement that the Duggars were and are a huge part of. In fact the Duggar family was a show piece for the IBYC. They were and are leaders and speakers.
Bill Gothards brother was a director of that ministry and he was fired for having affairs with Institute secretaries in his on campus porn den. Bill Gothard himself was finally last spring forced to resign because he was fondeling under age girls who came to work for him. These girls that came to work for him were from families that were involved with his ministry.
The whole system created an environment of fear, silence, isolation that abusers like Bill and Josh could use to perpetrate crimes while being protected by the system of silence ans authorities. Very nasty indeed.
Morgan Freeman?
I knew he is a racist, but have not heard that he was a perv also.
I can’t help it; this seems unjust. If he did this as a teen and has not done it since, we should let it go. His parents watched him like a hawk and even turned him in when they caught him as a teen. I think it is safe to say he’s clean as an adult...so far.
The facts as I see them:
The sent him to a program run by a pervert.
They took him to a cop who was a pervert after the statute of limitations had expired.
Lots of perverts involved and an orchestrated coverup.
Jimbob and Michelle are the most guilty IMO.
I did not know all that. : (
The Duggars are political. Politics is a messy business.
Horrifying .... What we now know and what we still may not know to this point.
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