Posted on 08/27/2015 9:25:51 AM PDT by Bob434
Thanks, I got the new fan on the old heatsink and it clamps down good and tight to cpu now- I took off the old thermal pad and went with straight grease- still not working though- there’ just seems ot be something else wrong too- I think I’ll have to simply get new refurbished computer in the end unfortunately
I’ve actually done that myself!
And yes, the machine still works!
Probably not. A LiON battery tends to hold a steady output for longer than you would think (in the case of the BIOS battery) then suddenly it's dead and it won't resurrect by waiting a couple of days.
Honestly at this point I'm running out of ideas, but there is one thing that I did run into that drove me nuts.. Do you have a power supply tester? One of those dodads that you plug the 20 or 24 pin plug from the PS and the other plugs - cpu supply, video plugs if your vid card uses them - into that will tell you if your voltages are right.. I had a power supply (a name brand - ThermalTake to be exact) that was in a computer that exhibited some strange manifestations not exactly but similar to what you are seeing. Sometimes it wouldn't start and I'd need to unplug the AC cord from the PS and it would turn on. At times it would just shutdown with no warning. Then one day it wouldn't start at all and the tricks didn't work. I tried a lot of different things including testing the power supply with my tester that only checks the 24 pin plug and that tested good.. I actually thought the motherboard had fried, and almost as a last resort (because it's only the cheap $10 power supplies from China that crap out, right? Not the $60 or more power supplies - that are probably from China too..) I plugged in my more 'thorough' power supply tester that checked not only the 24 pin plug but the separate 12v cpu supply plug and the peripheral plugs.. I had no 12v cpu supply. It was apparently marginal for a while and finally quit.
So if you have a power supply tester that checks all the outputs, not just the 24 pin plug, or lacking that, if you have an extra power supply to hook up, it might be worth a shot.. A marginal PS might just explain the 'why' behind it coming back after a day or two rest.
Otherwise I'm out of ideas. Until of course something else pops into my head. Probably at 4 o'clock in the morning ;-)
thanks for that link- I’ll have to check all the capacitors out- I never even thought to do that- perhaps that is the problem-
[[Do you have a power supply tester?]]
No- but I did try a brand new (infact two new ones) in the computer, and neither one fixed the no start issue
[[Until of course something else pops into my head. Probably at 4 o’clock in the morning ;-)]]
Lol- you sound like me- I’ll wake up out of dead sleep and think “Aha! That’s what I should try- then get up- try it, doesn’t work, then try to get back to sleep, but my mind is now racing too fast for sleeping-
The problem is that the heat-sync is smaller than the CPU.
Also possible that the MB itself is toast (of intermittent flavor ;-).
One of the boxes sitting back in the corner here has that issue. It does what it’s supposed to until it gets a little warm then really strange things start happening. The case, power supply, HD, DVD, ram, cpu are all good, and although the person who gave it to me (”Here, see if YOU can get it to work..” ;-) wiped the HD, there is a valid Win7 key sticker on the box so when I get the urge to mess with it, I’ll troll EBay for a MB that the cpu will work in, reload Win7 using that key, and get it running.
Maybe I could sell it back to the guy who gave it to me..
So much for tonight, going to bed. Grandkids don’t sleep in.
I’ll have to go back and read the entire post, or at least the replies since I posted, but the beeps are a specific beep code that varies by BIOS. Find out what BIOS your motherboard uses, I Haven’t kept up recently, but 3 or 4 years ago they were using AMI, Phoenix and one other I can’t remember. Once you find out, it should be listed on the initial start up screen, but m0ost these days use a splash screen instead, which can be disabled in BIOS.
Here’s a decent page that outlines most of the BIOS access keys at start up.
http://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch000192.htm
Find out what BIOS you have and you can google the beep code, and often the codes are also listed in the motherboard manual. If you have a printed copy, great, but most are pdf files, your P4 may have had a printed one, P4 was in the early days of companies going cheap and putting it online instead. That beep code is to tell you it has a problem and what that problem is.
Most of the time you should get one beep at start up telling you everything is OK.
From your description, it does sound like heat, and it could also be a heat problem related to the video card too. Check to see if the video card has a heatsink and fan, I’ve had to replace those too. I don’t remember, if you had a lot of dust inside, get some canned compressed air and blow it out good (go outside, trust me). Don’t use a vacuum cleaner, if it has any jumpers it can suck those off the pins and you’re hosed. You can generally use a vacuum on the power supply, but I don’t recommend it, take it apart if you have to, but get all the dust out you can. Dust is your enemy. It acts just like a blanket and holds heat in, as well as blocking the fins of the heatsink so it can’t cool the way it should.
The best way I know of to isolate a heat problem is to put a small fan blowing into the main case fan area, and see if it stops acting up. Lots of times just keeping the computer in a small, closed space causes problems because it can’t circulate air well. Like those computer desks with small cabinets on the side...I took the door off mine and cut a big hole in back, no problems.
That’s all I can think of right now...
[[From your description, it does sound like heat, and it could also be a heat problem related to the video card too.]]
Thanks Paleo-
I’ve tried another video card and still the problem kept happening- I’m really at a loss for what it could be- I’ve switched out psu’s, video cards, removed al l the peripheral cards trying ot get it to start with not luck, reseated all the ram, even switched them I n their slots- Even removed all ram (to see if there was a beepcode- no beeps) then replaced one by one but nothing helped the computer to start- tried a new cpu cooler, replaced the battery- trying two new batteries (because when computer would start I’d get the ‘low Cmos battery’ message and have to go into bios to rest the time- but this was intermittent too- sometimes I got message, other times not)
I’ve reseated the heatsink many times, reseated all the peripheral cards, tried different slots for them checked all the capacitors for bulges or leaks- something is just really not right- and I can’t figure it out- I fear it’s a motherboard issue- as that is all I can think of that hasn’t been changed out
As for the beeps, sometimes it would beep, other times not- now it isn’t beeping at all when the computer will start
[[I don’t remember, if you had a lot of dust inside,]]
Nope- clean machine- took out vid card, cleaned off the fins blew it out with canned air etc- cleaned cpu heatsink etc- board is all clean- etc-
[[Lots of times just keeping the computer in a small, closed space causes problems because it can’t circulate air well]]
I use an ATX case with tons of room, and have 4 fans along with vid card fan, psu fan, cpu fan etc- this was an alienware gaming computer- and had lots of cooling- but I’ll run a larger desk fan into the case on the gpu to see if that makes a difference, but I have tried another card and still had the problem- so not sure if that will help, but perhaps it will
It might be cheaper & easier to replace motherboard
Its a 55 watt processor so you should be OK despite the smaller contact area.
Install this software http://www.cpuid.com/softwares/hwmonitor.html to get a temperature reading any time you want. You can see if the CPU is running hot.
BTW I have had CPUs overheat on me about 7 times and none ever got ruined. Your computer should automatically shut down. If not your motherboard will get ruined before the CPU does
[[Also possible that the MB itself is toast (of intermittent flavor ;-).]]
I fear that may be the case- I had put the computer into storage in working condition because I got new computer- and didn’t use it for perhaps 2 years (which is why I suspected battery later when it wouldn’t start) and when I first started it up, it started fine- I installed a game on it, ran it for awhile, then computer shut down (which is why I suspected heat issues)
[[The case, power supply, HD, DVD, ram, cpu are all good,]]
That is my case too - As far as I’m aware, after unplugging all of those one at a time, and the problem not improving, all those are still good, which leaves just the battery, motherboard, or like one person mentioned perhaps cpu sending wrong electrical signal to bios
I hate to give up o nthe machine, simply because I was an idiot and payed WAY too much for the machine, and now want ot keep getting my ‘money’s worth’, but I think it’s a problem that would take a repair person quite awhile to figure out and cost too much to repair compared to just buying a good cheap refurbished computer for peanuts
yeah I probably should have just gone ahead and done something like that instead of buying a cpu cooler/fan- maybe I’ll give that a try first- $45 or so is not too much if it saves the computer (although I can get refurbished core 2 duo comp for around $60- but would need a low profile graphics card- so around $100 or so, maybe a bitm ore- will have to think the options through- The P4 is getting pretty long I nthe tooth
After just reading through all this again it seems you have checked all I can think of.
Power supply - already checked. That was my next suggestion, I just found out you already tried a couple of new ones.
If you have already tried it with nothing but motherboard, CPU, RAM and video, it has to be related to one of those parts, and you can only narrow it down further if you have another know working machine to try CPU and RAM in. Being a tech with my own shop I always tried to keep test systems on hand. After a while that got tricky, I ran across everything from old 486 machines to P4 systems...
Anyway it’s beginning to look like it is most likely a motherboard or CPU problem. I’d be looking suspiciously at the CPU, especially if it had a chance to get hot. The P4 did run really hot, without a heatsink and fan it would literally fry itself in 10 seconds. They took some good cooling, and I’ve seen more than one toasted by dust in the heatsink or a gummed up fan not spinning at good speed.
If you don’t have access to a currently working system based on the same CPU you can use to test RAM and CPU, the only thing I know of is replace motherboard, or you might take just RAM and CPU to a computer shop and see what they would charge to test them. When I had my shop I was doing that for $10-20. If all I have to do is test a couple of parts, no reason to charge a standard $40 bench charge...A couple of folks came in and just wanted me to see if a hard drive or video card was working, 10 bucks...I’m sure most shops are charging more than that these days.
I got burned out on it and shut down 5 or 6 years ago, I had to move and completely start over, location was not good at all for a home based shop, phone was shut off (beyond my control, long story) so I lost all my existing business, which was just getting to the point it could survive on its own... I ran across people 2 years later that had been trying to contact me, called and got disconnected message...made me sick. Family estate squabbles, greedy relatives, I was the black sheep anyway, I got screwed...finally got disgusted and closed down entirely.
Looks like you’ve just about narrowed it down to motherboard, CPU or RAM. I thought about capacitors too, I’ve replaced caps in probably 50 to 75 motherboards, it’s harder to remove them than solder in new ones. That will cause all sorts of strange problems, and it’s usually never the same thing twice in a row or a problem goes away and comes back. Drove me crazy until I found out what was happening, and started to just look at the capacitors...30 second troubleshooting job - remove the cover, peek inside. But you have to look close, sometimes they can leak from the bottom, where they have a rubber stopper, and it’s hard to see the electrolyte leaking out onto the motherboard. A flashlight helps.
[[If you have already tried it with nothing but motherboard, CPU, RAM and video, it has to be related to one of those parts]]
Yes, that’s what I’m thinking- I did take out all ram, (wouldn’t boot of course- ) then put ram back in- meticulously trying all 4 one at a time, then two at a time- switching the combos each time until all 4 were back in- the computer never did boot during this time-
It would seem that if it was a bad ram module, using just one or two different sticks would have allowed computer to boot- so that rules out ram mostly-
[[and you can only narrow it down further if you have another know working machine to try CPU and RAM in.]]
Unfortunately not one I’m willing to try it in- my main computer is my workhorse, another reduclously overpriced machine sadly (I fell for the ‘bigger badder faster’ mentality I’m afraid)- and I don’t want anything to happen to it- I’d probably be safe trying those items, but with my luck I don’t dare-
[[Being a tech with my own shop I always tried to keep test systems on hand.]]
I had an old computer years ago, and like a dummy got rid of it- I shoulda kept it around for just that purpose
[[ and started to just look at the capacitors...30 second troubleshooting job - remove the cover, peek inside. But you have to look close, sometimes they can leak from the bottom, where they have a rubber stopper,]]
I didn’t think of looking at bottom of capacitors- makes sense though- I’ll try to check them out, though it’s going to be difficult to see most of them-
I suppose I could spring $45 for a new mobo p4- I’ve certainly whizzed away more than that in an evening before and had nothing to show for it later- so at least I’ll have a new mobo for $45 to show for it this time- can’t hurt-
It’s kinda like an old car, things start going wrong, do you keep throwing money at it? Or buy another vehicle
[[I got burned out on it and shut down 5 or 6 years ago,]]
Can’t blame you- I’m patient with projects- to a point, then I abandon the project altogether when thigns start going wrong- it takes more patience than I have sometimes-
This guy has a pretty cool test system you can see over on the right- everything is exposed and easy to get to in order to test different components-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eN0qB3oDuEw
Would be nice to have something like that for testing purposes
Thank you for finding that info- I did mod the new heatsink fan to fit my old heatsink- so I have full coverage- I took off the thermal pad, and am using just thermal paste now
So far nothing seems burned out- sometimes the computer wil l start, I can do some light stuff on it, but when I try to do something heavy, like play a game- it runs for a bit then shuts down and won’t start again until I unplug the thing for a couple of days
I didn’t watch the video, but what you’re describing is what I always kept set up and ready. I built a bench to use, room to work on 5 at a time, always had several test parts ready to grab. With AMD and Intel CPUs, Pentium, P-II, P-III, P4 and then Intel and AMD which require different sockets and therefore motherboards, 2 or 3 types of memory, AGP and PCI video cards, different power supply requirements...
All that made it difficult to simply keep one test system ready to go, and I often had one up and running with a Linux CD for an OS, all the parts laid out on the bench. Had it set up so I could get online from any place in the room, couple of pairs of speakers, 4 monitors, keyboards, mice...I only used 4 spaces, more room to work that way but could squeeze in 6 in a pinch. And the one set up and running Linux was where I’d get online a lot. Sometimes the only reason I’d hook up a hard drive was so it would have a swap file to use.
But for normal shop purposes, I had to be able to take it down and set up something totally different in minutes, which is one of the useful things about a bootable Linux CD, no chance of causing the OS to hiccup at next boot by a hard power down.
I think you’ve pretty much ruled out everything but motherboard, CPU and RAM. I’d think about taking CPU and RAM to a shop and see if they would check them out at a reasonable price. There is a chance all the RAM sticks could be bad, it wouldn’t be the first time I’ve seen that, especially if a lightning strike caused a power surge, I’ve seen that lots of times. The only way to definitely prove it’s not bad RAM is to try known good RAM or try yours in a working machine. Ditto for the CPU. And I’ve seen lightning strikes and power surges fry every part you can think of...even monitors. RAM and modems are the most common victims. In a couple of cases at a shop I worked for, we saw the entire computer fried...everything...even the keyboard in one case. But usually it was modems, RAM was common too.
yeah I am fanatic about unplugging computers if there’s a chance of lightening- but I keep mine on sleep mode overnight, so I guess a freak storm could have damaged things- but the weird thing is everything was fine with the computer when I put it into storage- it was only after first boot up after 2 or so years that it freaked out on me after running for a bit— which made me think of battery issue-
I dunno perhaps there’s even a partial sparotic short somewhere- who knows-
Thanks for your time on this- I’m either going to get new mobo and processor, or get a refurbished small form factor for not too much money- (Saw a mod where some fella put a full sized video card in it- had to keep his hard-drive outside the case, and the vid card was too tall so he couldn’t use side panel, but it worked- maybe I’ll put my Nvidia card in it and run it without side panel- or maybe cut a slot in side panel or something lol
Stored for 2 years...didn’t know that but it’s another one I’ve seen before. And have no explanation...weird problems after storage, never have figured it out. If a good CMOS battery made no difference, I’ve never found any logical reason storing one should cause weird problems but sometimes it happens.
Static electricity hooking it up?
Capacitor dried out? *
Thermal compound dried and hardened, bad heat transfer?
All possible but never proven.
* Electrolytic capacitors can dry out if not used for a while, but usually it’s the ones that are 25 - 30 years old or more, like the ones in my 1973 Super Reverb guitar amp. Capactiors are made by soaking paper in an electrolyte then rolling with a layer of metal foil, just like a roll of paper towels, and a conductor on each end. That electrolyte can dry out after a while, the cap will fail, or worse, intermittently go flaky, and sometimes it’s difficult to troubleshoot. With amps it can fry a transformer, the last one I replaced was $120 around 10 years ago, I just replaced every capacitor in it to be on the safe side.
With computers I’m not sure what it can do, but knowing the really strange problems I’ve seen when they leak out, I have to be suspicious... Batch of electrolyte was made in Japan years ago from a formula stolen by an employee, it was missing one ingredient that prevents the formation of hydrogen while in use, that’s why caps were going bad in computers for several years. I found out by freak chance when I got one and an electronics tech working next door told me if I’d replace those 4 caps it would work again. I replaced them, it was my Linux machine for about 6 years.
That computer would suddenly refuse to ID the hard drive, then boot up fine. Refuse to ID the CD ROOM, then work great, then refuse to see a sound or video card...weird, intermittent stuff. I did the troubleshooting and decided it had to be a bad motherboard. Well, yes and no...but that’s the kind of thing they do, and it’s almost never the same thing from one machine to the next.
Try a motherboard. I doubt if I have one, I got rid of most of my parts when I moved here, or I’d offer to dig one out...Without knowing some specs I can’t do much, and I spotted a couple in a yard sale yesterday real cheap, but no idea if they work. Under $10 cheap...socket 939 if I remember correctly...Asus A8N I think they were.
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