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To: Red Badger

It still needs energy to pump the water through the membrane and electricity. .
How do you get that electricity?


3 posted on 05/30/2023 11:56:06 AM PDT by Frohickey
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To: Frohickey

There is a little image of a solar panel on the left.


6 posted on 05/30/2023 11:59:09 AM PDT by Blennos
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To: Frohickey

“How do you get that electricity?”

Nullpunktsenergie, or fairy dust. Or wishful thinking, the most powerful source of all things imaginary.


10 posted on 05/30/2023 12:04:07 PM PDT by rightwingcrazy (;-,)
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To: Frohickey

Fossil fuel, of course. Same as those EV oversized electric golf karts.


11 posted on 05/30/2023 12:04:40 PM PDT by doorgunner69 (Let's go Brandon)
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To: Frohickey
It still needs energy to pump the water through the membrane and electricity. . How do you get that electricity?

From the tiny solar panel in the picture...

23 posted on 05/30/2023 12:35:24 PM PDT by Yo-Yo (Is the /Sarc tag really necessary? Pray for President Biden: Psalm 109:8)
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To: Frohickey

It’s never gonna work because the DS/Globalist’s are going to destroy the Electrical Grid.


27 posted on 05/30/2023 12:44:43 PM PDT by mabarker1 ( (Congress- the opposite of PROGRESS!!! A fraud, a hypocrite, a liar. I'm a member of Congress!!!)
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To: Frohickey
It still needs energy to pump the water through the membrane and electricity. . How do you get that electricity?

Exactly. I looked at hydrogen electrolyzers and fuel cells for home energy storage in case the defecation hits the oscillator (as Pop used to put it). And the best I could come up with is a 50% loss of energy round trip. (For every 100kWh of power you use to run the electrolyzer and store hydrogen into a tank, you get only 50kWh out of it from powering a fuel cell.) That's horrible from a grid support perspective.

Then only thing such a system brings to the table is its ability to expand storage cheaply (by bigger or more tanks) relative to more battery storage (much higher efficiency in charging/discharging, but more expensive to add kWh's of storage). For example, a hydrogen tank like in the Toyota Mirai is 32 gallons in size and store at pressure up to 10,000 psi. That gives it a 5kg capacity by weight of H2. The fuel cell in the Mirai converts that to 280kWh, which is more than the total power I pulled from the grid last month to power my house (including charge my EV) because our solar combined with battery storage took care of the rest.

Let's see how an electrolyzer and fuel cell would work, at least for my situation. This is from the perspective of trying to be self-sufficient so that the government's energy policies have less effect on an individual or family. Last month I had 125 hours in which my home battery stack was fully charged and I had nowhere useful for incoming solar power to go (I'm not selling power to the grid). If I had a hydrogen electrolyzer I could at that point configure my inverters to run the electrolzyer and generate hydrogen gas (in a tank I'd store outside down the hill in the ground like in a storm shelter). Then at times my home batteries were drained and my inverters, therefore, pulled whatever power I needed from the grid, my inverters could have instead chosen to first run a power cell to produce power from the stored hydrogen. I already have some experience with a similar system because this is exactly how we usually charge our EV. On days the EV is charged more than enough to handle the next day's chores, we plug it into an intermittent outlet that's powered by our inverters only on the condition that the home batteries are charged more than enough to power the home through the night. Thus, power to charge the EV on those days is charging the EV for future days' worth of driving beyond tomorrow (in case we have little free solar power coming after today). If we don't have excess power today (bad day for solar) the intermittent charger isn't hot and, therefore, doesn't charge the EV. (On those times we're cool with that or we would plug the EV into the constantly powered outlet because we need more charge for the next day's driving even if it means pulling some of that power from the grid.) If I had an electrolyzer to produce hydrogen, I'd power it from the same intermittent panel that the intermittent EV charger outlet is powered.

If I wanted enough hydrogen storage to last the winter without pulling from the grid, I'd just add more tanks without having to also add more expensive equipment (extra electrolyzers and fuel cells). I could fill the tanks in the spring, summer, and fall when I have plenty of excess solar power and hardly need power beyond what my solar and battery storage provide. In the winter I'd consume the hydrogen on nights I don't have enough battery power to heat the home (and charge the EV and in some case entertain guests and consume even more power like during Christmas holidays of if we're all gathered to watch football in January, particularly if Bama makes the playoffs). Though even in winter I have some good solar days that are also low consumption days and, therefore, would have some days I'd run the electrolyzer and build up hydrogen gas. If my fuel cell was as efficient as the Toyota Mirai's fuel cell, I'd need about 7 or 8 of the tanks like the Mirai has (or about 250 gallons if the same psi) and I'd be off-grid without my wife and I decreasing our lifestyle. By comparison, a small propane tank for a home ("small" for the tanks that sit horizontally on the ground) is about 250 gallons.

30 posted on 05/30/2023 12:55:17 PM PDT by Tell It Right (1st Thessalonians 5:21 -- Put everything to the test, hold fast to that which is true.)
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To: Frohickey

“It still needs energy to pump the water through the membrane and electricity. .
How do you get that electricity?”

In a situation where you do not care what time of day it works; so long as it works some of the day, you could potentially use solar or wind power. Since it is using seawater a tidal turbine is a possibility. Nuclear would be better. The idea is to product transportable energy.


39 posted on 05/30/2023 1:24:03 PM PDT by Fai Mao (Starve the beast and steal its food!)
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To: Frohickey
Ding ding! You win! Lol…

I've only worked around the edges of industrial electrolytic processes so am far from an expert. That said… I've worked around aspects of very large operations to produce chorine and sodium hydroxide from saturated brine and magnesium from seawater.

As a guess…. The ideal way to use this double membrane could be to colocate with magnesium production.

Front end feed purification would likely be needed. Large amounts of land area are needed for these unit operations.

Some millions (or billions at a national scale) of gallons per minute of seawater are going to be required. Huge amounts of sodium hydroxide are required to raise the pH thus precipitating out hardness elements. Then, hydrochloric acid is likely used to lower pH so you can strip carbon dioxide (global warming!) from the water.

The electricity requirements are very substantial. Dozens if not more (LOTs more) large power plants will be required. This is of the baseline thermal or nuclear type, not unicorn fart variety.

There will be a small amount of hazardous waste produced in the form of chlorinated hydrocarbons. These are removed and sent to hazardous waste incinerators or perhaps fuel in cement kilns.

There are just a handful of companies worldwide that work at the largest scale of these kinds of production operations.

43 posted on 05/30/2023 2:19:47 PM PDT by Hootowl99
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To: Frohickey

Yeah, turning seawater into fuel is not a trick. Turning seawater into fuel in a process that isn’t a net energy drain would be a trick.


44 posted on 05/30/2023 2:22:00 PM PDT by Boogieman
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