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JFK's fatal head wound: The truth for those who want to know (very graphic)
jmasland.com & others | 11/22/03

Posted on 11/22/2003 5:10:59 PM PST by Wolfstar

The Zapruder film proves itself to be authentic. There is no possibility that any frames could have been cut out of the film or altered. Why/how? Every time a frame was exposed, part of the background scene was exposed onto both the next frame and the previous frame in the sprocket hole areas. This is because the sproket holes are between frames, as shown below:


The head shot, frame-by-frame:

Frame 312


Frame 313


Frame 313 enlarged:


Frame 314


Frame 315


Frame 316


Frame 317


Frame 318


Frame 319


Frame 320


The head wound:


The large flap of skull, skin and other tissue blown out above and just in front of the president’s right ear. The flap stayed attached and hung over the president's right cheek. On the ride to Parkland, Mrs. Kennedy attempted to put it back in place. What the doctors saw at Parkland was the wound partially closed with the shattered pieces at the top rear of the wound missing. Hence, some doctors recalled a wound in that area:



TOPICS: Heated Discussion
KEYWORDS: 01nov1963; bang; diem; jfk; jfkhit; oswald
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To: texasbluebell
Take any copy of that ridiculous video and burn it.

I emailed them and told them thye should be ashamed of themselves for calling themselves the "history" channel and that they should change their name to the "fiction" channel.
151 posted on 11/22/2003 11:26:02 PM PST by Az Joe
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To: Wolfstar
The bullet traveled 2000 fps to hit the president 5 1/2inches [14 Centimeters]below the Mastoid Process[there's a picture of the hole and the ruler], it hit no bones and exited out his neck[1772 to 1,779 feet per second] clipping his tie[photos of the tie]. It traveled 28 inches away[trajectory report]to hit Connelly near the right armpit[Doctor's report] clipping his rib[Doctor's report]and keyholed out his chest
leaving a 2 inch by 1/2 inch wound [Doctor's report]. At this point it had only hit one bone and is now flying sideways when it hit the wrist [3/4 inch wound] and buries itself in a shallow wound[very little soft tissue damage,[Doctor's report] in the thigh leaving an amount of lead in the thigh. The amount of lead in the wrist and the bullet add up to the original weight of 161 grains which is the same amount of the bullets from the Western Ammunition Company. Connelly had a broken rib bone and wrist bone. {Doctor's report]. Cloth from his clothing was found in his wrist.


The bullet and fragments were traced to Oswald's rifle and no other.
152 posted on 11/23/2003 12:40:26 AM PST by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: Wolfstar

Thanks for the thread.

153 posted on 11/23/2003 12:43:10 AM PST by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: gooleyman; Az Joe
I just found out today that everyone knew about the route.

The reason they didn't go down Main is because the limo was too low to jump a curb to go from Main to the Stemmens Freeway.

Elm Street leads to the freeway.
154 posted on 11/23/2003 12:49:27 AM PST by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: Shooter 2.5
Thank you very much for your clear and thorough explanation of the back/neck wound bullet. I had not been aware until now that it had not hit any bone prior to hitting Connolly. That explains a lot. Not being educated on ballistics, myself, I always wondered why the bullet that struck the president's head and the one that struck his back/neck seemed to behave differently. Thanks to you and one or two others who've posted knowledgeable info on this thread, I now understand.
155 posted on 11/23/2003 9:45:16 AM PST by Wolfstar (An angel still rides in the whirlwind and directs this storm.)
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To: martian_22
"BTW, was anyone else in the limo injured? If so, how?"

Gov Connely was in the front passenger seat and was struck by one of the shots that had hit and passed thru Kennedy.
156 posted on 11/23/2003 11:52:13 AM PST by Bobibutu
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To: wardaddy
Oswald was the shooter in my view.

The intrigue surrounding he and Ruby will never be resolved.

\\\

THAT is what I have always believed.
157 posted on 11/24/2003 5:12:49 AM PST by TexanAmerican
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To: Shooter 2.5
.
158 posted on 11/24/2003 11:42:30 AM PST by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: Az Joe
you are right Joe; and there was also no secret bombing of Cambodia and Laos (saw the bombs fall myself) The japs didn't use bio-weapons againest China, Three Mile Island never was near melt-down, (President Carter was there, it must be safe) Agent Orange is safe,there is no Mafia (Hoover said so, it must be true) meanwhile ....the beat goes on. The Devils greatest trick has been to convince modern man that he doesn't exist.
159 posted on 11/24/2003 5:07:25 PM PST by dollardriven
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To: Wolfstar
i own a 6.5mm carcano, bolt action rifle. the bullet is 156grain and has a muzzle volocity of 2400+fps. i bought it to build a lightweight deer rifle for my wife. then she found out it was the same gun as used to kill JFK. now it sits in my gun case.....:(
160 posted on 11/24/2003 7:28:30 PM PST by gdc61
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To: Shooter 2.5
what was the estimated distance from the book repository to the limo?
161 posted on 11/24/2003 7:33:39 PM PST by gdc61
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To: gdc61
Oswald's Winchester-Western's were 161 grains and 2000 FPS.
162 posted on 11/24/2003 7:42:40 PM PST by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: gdc61
44 and 88 Yards.

Take that rifle out and see if you can get two out of three hits in 8.1 with the first shot starting the clock.

163 posted on 11/24/2003 7:44:32 PM PST by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: dollardriven
Proof.
164 posted on 11/24/2003 8:01:52 PM PST by Az Joe
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To: Shooter 2.5
from sitting pos. w/sandbag, 75-80yds w/opensight, 5in pie plate & a 5round pushthrough clip. (after wasting half a box @ $33 bucks a box to adjust the bent front sight) 5 shots inside a 3in circle. i was impressed enough to want to put a scope on it....... just counting out loud and making the motions i could even get 4 shots off with time to breath and squeeze. and i'm no rambo or audey murphy for that matter.
165 posted on 11/24/2003 8:07:01 PM PST by gdc61
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To: dollardriven
.....The Devils greatest trick has been to convince modern man that he doesn't exist....
thats good! i'm gonna steal it!...eerr borrow..
166 posted on 11/24/2003 8:09:19 PM PST by gdc61
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To: Shooter 2.5
this ammo came from NORMA and is listed 156gr. and 2428fps at 0 and drops to 2174fps at 100yds. i'm surprised shaving .005gr off would effect the velocity that much.
167 posted on 11/24/2003 8:29:32 PM PST by gdc61
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To: gdc61
i didn't know the specifics of the original ammo. were they hollowpoint?
168 posted on 11/24/2003 8:33:34 PM PST by gdc61
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To: gdc61
Yeah, I figured an owner of a Carcano had to try it.

They were the old service full metal jacket bullets sold by Wichester-Western.

That quote is from the movie, "The Usual Suspects".
169 posted on 11/24/2003 9:06:53 PM PST by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: CholeraJoe
So far, the two doctors who have posted on FR on this topic, you and Ophiucus, have come down on the side of frontal wound.

That's two physicians (at least one with extensive experience in gun shot wounds) against a bunch of amatuers. Hmmmmm.

Who to give the greatest weight?

Tough call.
170 posted on 11/24/2003 9:25:23 PM PST by Swordmaker
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To: Shooter 2.5; Az Joe
"The reason they didn't go down Main is because the limo was too low to jump a curb to go from Main to the Stemmens Freeway. "

-----
I ran across an interesting article you two may be interested in reading. In it there is a map of the motorcade route by the book store. Here's a link to the particular comment: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1028269/posts?q=1&&page=51#55

Also, here's an article of excerpts from various books explaining that the motorcade route was changed the morning of the 22nd: http://www.madbbs.com/~tracy/lho/vpal4.txt
Do a CTRL+F and find the word "route" for the passages.

Give me your impressions.
171 posted on 11/24/2003 9:43:21 PM PST by gooleyman
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To: Shooter 2.5
did oswalds rifle have a scope ? if so it must have been a side mount. or had the bolt handle bent farther.
172 posted on 11/24/2003 9:47:05 PM PST by gdc61
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To: CholeraJoe; Ophiucus
The only bullet photos I have seen are of one intact bullet that was found on JFK's stretcher.

Er, Cholera, the bullet in question was found on Connely's gurney, not Kennedy's. No other bullets were retrieved, as far as I know. The head wound bullet(s) were not recovered, nor was the bullet that hit the pavement.

AS for the X-rays, here they are:

I am curious if anyone has measure the angle of the trajectory from the vertebral damage on the right side of the vertebra to the exit/entrance wound on the neck and compared in both XY axes it to the wound on the back, the location of the sixth floor window, etc. The source of this picture thinks they would not match...

High Resolution Autopsy Photo of the head wound Definately NOT for the squeamish...

173 posted on 11/24/2003 9:56:30 PM PST by Swordmaker
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To: Shooter 2.5; Az Joe
Another thing: Here's a link to a book which describes the expert shooters who did demonstrations for the Warren Commission trying to shoot an exact rifle like Oswalds at an actual target (albeit stationary) and real bullets at different distances.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/terrorists_spies/assassins/jfk/11.html

Here's an excerpt from the conclusions:
"These guys did not mess around. They set three targets at three different distances -- 175, 240 and 365 feet and shooting from a tower 30 feet high with the same rifle, that funny Italian job, away they went. Remember this was again a stationary target that they used for this experiment. The first two marksmen not only missed the time frame, they missed the target. The third guy, a man called Miller, was the only one ever, to match Oswald's shooting speed, but his shots were so wild, his third shot not only missed the target, it missed the board it was mounted on."

"Don't forget. These top-class marksmen, the best in the land, were all shooting at stationary targets. It was agreed that a moving target would have slowed down the speed of shooting. To help them achieve their remarkable efficiency, these army experts had also corrected the inaccurate telescopic sight, which of course Oswald did not."

END OF EXCERPT

Let me know your perceptions of this also.
174 posted on 11/24/2003 10:07:28 PM PST by gooleyman
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To: gooleyman
The forensics on the wounds make it a near 100% certainty that the shots were fired from the corner window of the sixth floor of the School Book Depository.

Oswald was seen in that window several seconds before and after the shooting.

The data on the expert tests does not refute those facts.
175 posted on 11/24/2003 10:51:12 PM PST by Az Joe
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To: Ex-Dem
Note the applesauce sprayed backwards..

Thanks! I was looking all over for just such a ballistic demo but ya' beat me to it! :))

176 posted on 11/24/2003 10:52:53 PM PST by Indie
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To: Swordmaker
I am curious if anyone has measure the angle of the trajectory from the vertebral damage on the right side of the vertebra to the exit/entrance wound on the neck and compared in both XY axes it to the wound on the back, the location of the sixth floor window, etc.

Good luck. There are more than one reported locations for the entrance wound on the back. Measurements have been made from the occipital protuberance, the collar, and the base of the skull. The Warren Report shows a disagreement or confusion about the back wound. I have seen accounts that it was either 4 inches below the occipital protuberance and about 1-2 inches to the right of the spine, approximately two inches below the collar line and adjacent to the spine, 6 or 7 inches below the base of the skull and slightly left of the spine, and 6 inches from the collar line and 3 - 4 inches to the left of the spine.

The wound at the front was described as an entrance wound at Parkland as a centimeter in diameter and directly above the clavicular notch (about a figure width below the larynx. However, this was described as a 1 inch latitudinal incision at the beginning of the autopsy but a 3-4 inch gaping exit wound in the autopsy report.

I think that Kennedy must have been slumped over forwards for the back shot to transit through the neck - which is definitely possible.

177 posted on 11/24/2003 10:55:07 PM PST by Ophiucus
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To: gooleyman
The extreme unlikelihood of the 2 hits/3 shots/6 seconds scenario was highlighted in the 1967 CBS rifle test. Eleven highly skilled marksmen participated in a fairly (though not totally) realistic simulation of the conditions under which Oswald would have had to fire. NOT ONE of the eleven expert shooters managed to score two hits on his first attempt--and Oswald would have had only one attempt. In fact, of the eleven CBS shooters, SEVEN failed to score two hits on ANY of their attempts.

They may have all come from the back, but same gunman (?) appears to be the main question. I don't know the answer to this...but were all 3 bullets found and proven to be from same gun?

178 posted on 11/24/2003 11:00:33 PM PST by Indie
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To: Indie
"...but were all 3 bullets found and proven to be from same gun?"

-----
No, no bullets were found at the scene. The one bullet that was "found" was the infamous pristine "magic bullet" that is purported to have passed through JFK & Governor Connelly (sp?) was found on Conelly's stretcher after "falling" out of a shallow wound in either his wrist or his leg. There were no marks on it. It was as if it hadn't touched anything.
179 posted on 11/24/2003 11:34:29 PM PST by gooleyman
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To: Ophiucus
I think that Kennedy must have been slumped over forwards for the back shot to transit through the neck - which is definitely possible.

If that is the case, then the Zapruder film is evidence against it. Kennedy is seen sitting upright just before disappearing behind the highway sign and when he comes out he is still upright, holding both hands infront of his throat. Did anyone ever comment on the amount of blood on his hands??? An exit wound from the throat would bleed a great deal, I would think (You are the expert on that). His shirt is apparently fairly clean on the front collar. There is a "nick" on his tie, supposedly from the entering/exiting bullet.

The doctors in the ER at Parkland would have cut his clothing offto examine him. I really doubt they would miss a "gaping" 3-4 inch exit wound in the neck... especially if they use it to perform a tracheotomy.

Check out the photo of the back entry wound:

Back entry wound autopsy photo Hi-Rez

And see if you can get a better handle on its position.

180 posted on 11/25/2003 12:09:22 AM PST by Swordmaker
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To: Indie
I also just read that there was no chain of custody for pristine bullet or 3rd bullet casing, nobody really remembers whose stretcher it was on, and that a ballistics expert testified that the bullet in pic taken in 1964 and supposedly same bullet pic taken later are not one in the same by a long shot. You can clearly see it in the photo. Later pic of bullet showed a bullet fired from a weapon whose rifling was nearly smooth and neither had organic material present. I read the testimony. After reading the testimony and other info, I'd have to conclude Oswald got off two rounds...first one a hit (unknown which hit) and second a miss (probably hit Gov Connely or missed completely hitting curb and bystander.) 3rd and/or 4th bullet(s) fired almost simultaneously from another location(s), behind or in front, it doesn't matter, in case Oswald missed, one or both of which hit. IMO. The 3rd bullet casing which "turned up later"...well..no police Captain is going to put it in his pocket and forget about it, only to disclose it later, and if they did, it wouldn't be admissable. It looks like history/evidence was put in a blender on this one and we'll never know for sure.
181 posted on 11/25/2003 4:19:08 AM PST by Indie
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To: gdc61
It was a four power Japanese side mount. The mount was made out of sheet metal.
182 posted on 11/25/2003 6:21:54 AM PST by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: Indie
The first bullet hit a bystander at the triple underpass. It or concrete hit him in the cheek after bouncing off the curb. It was never found.

The second was found on the Connelly's gurney. He has a final shallow thigh wound.

The third broke into two major pieces. The nose and the base. Those pieces broke the windshield and dented the chrome. One piece was found on the driver seat and the other on the front floorboard. All fragments and the bullet were traced to Oswald's rifle.
183 posted on 11/25/2003 6:26:35 AM PST by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: Az Joe

Kennedy moves a couple of inches forward from the impact.

184 posted on 11/25/2003 6:33:07 AM PST by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: gooleyman
your post wasn't to me but i find it hard to believe these guys were experts. 8 seconds is a long time. i purchased a 6.5mm carc. 2 years ago from a guy for $50 bucks to make a deer rifle for my wife. see posts 160 and 165. at the time i didn't realize it was the same type rifle used by oswald. i have fired it dozens of times. it has a very smooth action and is an accurate weapon. i honestly believe i could duplicate those shots.
185 posted on 11/25/2003 6:43:33 AM PST by gdc61
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To: Shooter 2.5
odd how the first clip is better quality than the second.
186 posted on 11/25/2003 6:50:42 AM PST by gdc61
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To: gdc61
It's a little out of focus.

I think Zapruder did a remarkable job keeping it in the focus considering what was happening. He said the sound "reverberated" around him.
187 posted on 11/25/2003 7:26:52 AM PST by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: Shooter 2.5
i can't imagine witnessing something like that. I always admired JFK, long before I realized he was a closet conservative, and if alive today would most likely be a republican or at least a Zel Miller dem.
188 posted on 11/25/2003 7:51:33 AM PST by gdc61
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To: Shooter 2.5
"Kennedy moves forward..."

Exactly right.
189 posted on 11/25/2003 9:36:33 AM PST by Az Joe
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To: Swordmaker; CholeraJoe; Ophiucus
So far, the two doctors who have posted on FR on this topic, you [CholeraJoe] and Ophiucus...

Swordmaker, not knowing either individual personally, all I can say is I have serious doubts as to whether or not CholeraJoe is a physician. As for Ophiucus, I missed his posts on the subject, so cannot comment. However, any bona fide physician worthy of the title who looks at the following still from the Zapruder film and still claims the head wound was caused by a frontal shot is someone who, at best, must have been dead bottom of his class in medical school.


Physical evidence is a funny thing. It speaks for itself no matter who says what, and who tries to twist things in order to make a buck off other people's tragedy. In this still, we see the upper right side of Kennedy's head blown apart. The autopsy x-rays show that part of the president's skull mostly missing, and what remains of the skull fractured in many places due to the explosive force of the bullet exiting out the right-front of the skull. We have frontal and side autopsy photos that show the shattered right front of the skull.

All of this material speaks for itself. Although, several times, I invited CholeraJoe to describe the injuries clinically, the fact is the material doesn't need an explanation. Certainly not from anonymous individuals posting on an internet forum, claiming to be physicians, and yet failing to explain clinically what they see in these materials. And no, claiming these materials are "faked" simply will not do. That's the fallback position of a charlatan.

190 posted on 11/25/2003 11:10:29 AM PST by Wolfstar (An angel still rides in the whirlwind and directs this storm.)
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To: Wolfstar
A. You're incorrect about my qualifications. I graduated sixth in my class from Medical School. And before you fling any more insults - Yes it was a US Med School and a good one.

B. The radiographs which you posted do not have any markings indicating their place of origin.

C. What they appear to show is massive head trauma due to a high velocity gunshot wound. There is no well-defined entrance wound in the parietal-occipital area (back of the head).

D. A high velocity hollow-point projectile entering from the front but at an angle could cause the massive avulsion of the scalp and bone flap, as well as the other skull fractures. Kennedy recoiled backwards, remember?

E. An intact bullet was found on Connolly's stretcher (I was wrong about it being on Kennedy's.)and was postulated to have passed through two men's chests and one leg and ended up intact??!

F. There are multiple metallic fragments noted on the radiographs. Were any of them recovered? If not, why not? Did they match the weapon Oswald carried?

G. There are unanswered questions about the wounds and the ballistics and your frantic ramblings haven't provided the answers.

191 posted on 11/25/2003 11:41:13 AM PST by CholeraJoe (Daddy, how many US soldiers have to die in defense of Freedom? Daughter, if necessary, all but 9.)
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To: CholeraJoe
B. Are you saying they're fakes?

D. Two large fragments were found at the front of the limo. One had cracked the windshield and the other had dented the chrome. The two fragments represented the nose and the base of a bullet traced to Oswald's rifle and no other. JFK's body moved forward at the moment of impact.

E. Two chests, one wrist and a shallow wound on the thigh. A military 161 grain full metal jacketed bullet moving at 2000 Feet a Second would have left JFK's body with the same force as a .357 Magnum.

G. No one needs to be a doctor to see the obvious.
192 posted on 11/25/2003 12:38:06 PM PST by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: Shooter 2.5
B. Are you saying they're fakes?

Not necessarily. Just every radiograph I've ever seen is date/time stamped and identified by the institution which produced it. Even radiographs produced in the 60's in the rural south. One wonders why these aren't.

I still don't see an entrance wound on the back of the head, do you?

193 posted on 11/25/2003 12:45:57 PM PST by CholeraJoe (Daddy, how many US soldiers have to die in defense of Freedom? Daughter, if necessary, all but 9.)
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To: CholeraJoe

The X-Ray to me represents a right frontal view and appears to match this side view. The entrance hole looks like it's at the bottom of the loose plate in the X-Ray and isn't shown due to the right-front angle.

194 posted on 11/25/2003 1:01:39 PM PST by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: gooleyman
I remember someone saying that there was a last minute change in the motorcade route. That originally they weren't supposed to go by the bookstore. The supposition there was that Oswald could not possibly have known of the change in the route days before when he was picking his shot-spot and therefore set himself up in the wrong position if he was going to kill Kennedy. Had either of you ever heard/read that one. I suppose the route had to be common knowledge just before the motorcade came through that day or else there wouldn't have been so many people lining the street there.

Changed Motorcade Route in Dallas?

195 posted on 11/25/2003 1:05:23 PM PST by Tares
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To: Wolfstar
Kennedy assassination links for all to consider (in no particular order):

Kennedy Assassination Home Page
Lee Harvey Oswald's Paper Bag
Guinn’s neutron-activation Analysis
Warren Report: Table of Contents
One Hundred Errors of Fact and Judgment in Oliver Stone's JFK
The Academic JFK Assassination Web Site
HSCA (House Select Committee on Assassinations) Final Assassinations Report
A Critique of The Warren Report
Attempted assassination of General Walker
Oswald interviews, Acoustic studies and other information relating to the assassination of JFK
Queen of Diamonds
Zapruder 313
Head Wound
Photos and Illustrations of the JFK Assassination
Zapruder Head Shot
A Conspiracy Too Big? Intellectual Dishonesty in the JFK Assassination
The Single Bullet Strikes John Connally
Changed Motorcade Route in Dallas?

196 posted on 11/25/2003 1:16:46 PM PST by Tares
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To: Tares
Tares,
Could you redo that link. It didn't work.

Thanks.
197 posted on 11/25/2003 1:41:42 PM PST by gooleyman
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To: mass55th
"The conspiracy theories drive me nuts."

Maybe if you just stare at that magical bullet, that Sphincter dreamed up, it will calm you down. On second thought, just go lay down, the government will wake you up when they need you.

198 posted on 11/25/2003 1:44:58 PM PST by itsahoot (The lesser of two evils, is evil still...Alan Keyes)
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To: CholeraJoe
A. As I said, I don't know you, so can't independently verify your line of work. However — and with all due respect — I am free to be impressed or unimpressed with your commentary posted on this thread.

B. I am not the only person who posted radiographs on this thread. Have you looked at Post #173? Those x-rays show the identifying information.

C. The entrance wound could not be seen in the x-ray I posted because it was a side view. Look at enlargement (2nd image down) of the frontal view in Post #173. The entrance wound is clearly visible in the center-left just above eye level.

D. Since I am not a ballistics expert, I can't comment on your assertion in your Item D. However, again, look at the frontal x-ray enlargement in Post #173.

E. Being a voluminous reader, and having read most of the best-known conspiracy theory books over the years, I'm fully aware of the issues related to the so-called Magic Bullet. I would only say this: Acknowledging the truth that the fatal head shot came from the rear does not in any way preclude the possibility of a conspiracy.

F. Fragments of the bullet that struck Kennedy's head were recovered in the car and yes, they did match the ammo and weapon found in the Texas School Book Depository. As for the fragments embedded in his skull and head tissue, I don't know if any of those were extracted. (Once again, you are free to do your own research on these and other questions.)

G. My "frantic ramblings" are not intended to provide answers, although I've provided you and others who visit this thread with plenty of material to delve into their own search for answers. Rather, I've been taking extra time and effort with you, because I'm dismayed that a person who ID's himself as an MD seems so, well...

199 posted on 11/25/2003 3:28:59 PM PST by Wolfstar (An angel still rides in the whirlwind and directs this storm.)
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To: itsahoot
The quote you used in your comment to me: "The conspiracy theories drive me nuts." was not mine. It was written by Veronica (reply 22), and I merely cut and pasted that line to respond to Veronica. You should really make sure you are responding to the correct person's quote before going off half-cocked.
200 posted on 11/25/2003 3:31:19 PM PST by mass55th
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 198 | View Replies]


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