Does evolution contradict creationism?

Talk Origins ^ | 1998 | Warren Kurt VonRoeschlaub

[shubi]

There are two parts to creationism. Evolution, specifically common descent, tells us how life came to where it is, but it does not say why. If the question is whether evolution disproves the basic underlying theme of Genesis, that God created the world and the life in it, the answer is no. Evolution cannot say exactly why common descent chose the paths that it did.

If the question is whether evolution contradicts a literal interpretation of the first chapter of Genesis as an exact historical account, then it does. This is the main, and for the most part only, point of conflict between those who believe in evolution and creationists.

[conservative_crusader]

"Nope it is not "proveable". Like I said, in science only math is proveable."

This is what we call a fallacy. Argumentum Ad Ingnorantium is its name.

Plus you did not even take the time to read post #126. You have not refuted it, therefore within this topic, the "creationuts" as you have so lovingly dubbed them, are winning the entire topic.

Are you really going to let that argument stand?

"Can we all agree on this so we can move the debate to substance."

Ok sure, it's true. There I agreed with you. Now lets get back to the substance of the debate. Disprove that some deity must exist. I have already proved one does(#126). The only way for us to get back to the debate's "substance" is for you to argue that point.

[shubi]

You didn't prove sh*t.

[conservative_crusader]

Oh so now you've resorted to cursing. How very noble of you. [/sarcasm]

[sayfer bullets]

Except that you believe strongly enough in the god of chaos to curse its doubters.

[Safrguns]

OK, you win. I won't argue with you anymore. But don't ever think that you have made any points in this debate. You are just being stubborn. HAH!.. yeah right... as if you would ever concede a point to anyone... I found that obvious before my first post. your arrogance and endless insults have been more entertaining to everyone here than they have been influential. Points??? Debate??? Very Funny!

[kipita]

First congrats to you as you have been here for a short period of time and have placed a winner in the right place, the Backroom. Personally, I like to state complex things as conceptually simple as possible, so here goes...

The Universe and the non-living entities on Earth:

Imagine a ball rolling down a very tall mountain, just about everything can be predicted as it transfers its energy into other forms. However, the ball could never climb as that would be an increase in potential energy, which cannot happen naturally.

The living as observed on Earth and, to date, no where else in the Universe:

Imagine the same ball rolling up the mountain, and nothing can be predicted except the distance it has traveled can be guesstimated. The potential energy of the ball appears to be increasing as the ball rolls up the hill.

Again, as stated earlier, if SETI has found nothing, Earth appears to be unique with its balls rolling up hills.

Again, I could not present as good an argument against evolution as the PhD Organic has presented.

[shubi]

There is no argument against biological evolution, except a
trumped up one. If there were any evidence that the TOE is not true, it would no longer be the TOE. Science discards wrong headed ideas, unlike creationuts.

The TOE contains nothing about original creation and nothing about balls rolling up or down hill. Analogies like yours are useless against millions of facts that all fit together into a coherent theory.

[conservative_crusader]

"There is no argument against biological evolution, except a
trumped up one."

Argumentum Ad Ignorantium. Saying there is no argument, or that something cannot be proved, is a fallacy.

"Science discards wrong headed ideas, unlike creationuts. "

I don't know. For thousands of years people who were geniuses believed that the world was held up by titans. In the Bible, Jesus told those who came to him that the world was hung on nothing. And while this could have been a guess on his part (I do not believe so,) most Christians would believe that at least the world was hung on nothing, whereas those who would support more "scientific" ventures (like the Greeks,) "knew" perfectly well that Atlas held up the world.

"The TOE contains nothing about original creation and nothing about balls rolling up or down hill."

Once again this is the fallacy Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc. Just because the Theory of evolution does not contain creationism, does not mean that the creationism is not true.

"Analogies like yours are useless against millions of facts that all fit together into a coherent theory."

Millions of facts eh? In all honesty it does not matter whether or not evolution is so. Like I said earlier, some god could have even used evolution as a tool.

Come on shubi, please argue my point and not say that I'm full of feces.

[balrog666]

Sin- something that is wrong. (in this case it is something that is wrong as per God's commandment, i.e. the slaughter of millions of God-fearing people who are innocent of any crime).

Killing- The ending of a life by another living thing.

Murder- The intentional taking of a human life, that is not involved with killing an enemy in military service, or when fulfilling one's duty's as an executioner.

So when your god ordered babies put the sword, which definition applied?

[balrog666]

Just because the Theory of evolution does not contain creationism, does not mean that the creationism is not true.

So who is arguing differently? How many times must the incredibly obvious be pointed out to you?

As for your analogy with balls rolling uphill, where exactly to you think this applies to evolution?

[Jehu]

Pretty much in agreement. I am not too worked up about TOE. On a personal level it is a dissatisfying theory. It does not have about it what scientists call "elegant." Most scientists know a theory is wrong if it does not display that undefinable something they can only say is "elegant." And why would that be so? Only that it is an unconscious tip of the hat to the creator.

[Jehu]

I guess it is a matter of perspective. To me you are a Christian without any faith, and a scientist without much knowledge. Sort of a transitory species in your own right. Maybe we can wait and see what you become after you have finished evolving.

[kipita]

Why don't you argue your point with superior intellectuals like yourself:

http://www.kurzweilai.net/meme/frame.html?main=memelist.html?m=1%23610

Maybe you can debunk Kurzweil’s Law (law of accelerating returns).

I'll continue to explain things based on simplistic models, order-disorder, balls rolling up and down hills, and continue to believe Earth is a very unique place and a higher Deity exists here, to say the least.

[conservative_crusader]

" So when your god ordered babies put the sword, which definition applied?"

Putting the babies to the sword was in the line of military duty. Therefore it was merely killing. Would God not forgive something he commanded his people to do? If I asked you to run over my neighbors cat, would I not forgive you for it? Of course I would, I asked you to do it.

[shubi]

Great, but it doesn't have anything to do with the TOE.
Let me know when you want to discuss something that is actually part of the Theory of Evolution.

[shubi]

Hey 666, do you agree with abortion?

Talk about putting kids to the sword.

[balrog666]

I'll continue to explain things based on simplistic models, order-disorder, balls rolling up and down hills,

That certainly avoids any real discussion.

and continue to believe Earth is a very unique place and a higher Deity exists here, to say the least.

Nobody cares what you believe, only what you can establish.

[shubi]

Did you notice that your link says that biological evolution is not a closed system? Discards the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics arguments, eh? Another nail in the creationut coffin.

[balrog666]

Putting the babies to the sword was in the line of military duty. Therefore it was merely killing. Would God not forgive something he commanded his people to do?

Oh, yeah, gotta watch out for those militaristic babies!

So, was your god too busy or too lazy to do it himself?

[balrog666]

Hey 666, do you agree with abortion? Talk about putting kids to the sword.

Abortion is a religion. And it violates the 2nd law of Thermodynamics. And it is caused by an invisible global flood that leaves no evidence.