Posted on 12/04/2005 1:38:56 PM PST by libertyman
Your intellectual cowardice is appalling.
No, the actions SOMETIMES taken by SOME drug users are harmful to others; the use of drugs is in and of itself harmful to nobody but the user.
In addition, many of the addictive drugs I have listed have no health value at all,
Tobacco has no health value at all ... shall we ban that too? Since when does a free society allow itself to ban things unless they can be shown to have "health value" (or any other value)?
and some can be addictive from the first use or initial use.
Let's see proof of this fishy claim.
You're not going to win the argument. Stop wasting my time and yours. Give it a rest.
There is no "argument" ... there's only you making snide evasive cracks. Only if you attempt to present facts or logic in support of your pro-WOD position can we have an actual argument.
Pot, kettle, black.
"Only if you attempt to present facts or logic in support of your pro-WOD position can we have an actual argument."
Much like arguing with liberals, it is a pointless exercise debating with pro-drug types. Logic, reason, and responsibility no longer matter. It's whomever can outshout the other. Well, sir, you can shout yourself raw in an empty thread. Have a nice day.
You're projecting ... you're the one who's displayed none of those three.
As does alcohol; shall we ban that drug too?
There's my logic; what's your logical response?
You're putting words in my mouth. I never said it did.
and one sentence in one Reagan radio commentary doesn't mean Reagan advocated illicit drug use.
I didn't say it did. Again, you're equating advocating legalization with advocating use. Gee, why would I think you were calling me a druggie?
I've been battling you pro-drug libertarians for years and you've never won one argument when it comes to the issue of drug legalization. And you never will. If anyone is a troll, its you one issue libertarians.
Uh huh. Let's make a comparison shall we?
Me:
Of course it will change the crime rate.You:HOMICIDE RATES AND SUBSTANCE CONTROL POLICY
My research indicates that the theory of the primary cause of violent crime in the United States which is most consistent with the available data is a violent black market caused by the War on Drugs today, and Prohibition in the 1920’s. ...Bruce Benson et al. (1992: 679) performed a cross-sectional analysis of data from 67 Florida counties in 1986 and 1987 to determine if property crime is positively related to the intensity of drug enforcement activities. Harold Brumm et al. (1995: 509) examined data on 57 cities in 32 states in 1985 to determine if homicide rates are positively correlated with the percentage of a communities law enforcement resources that are devoted to the enforcement of drug laws. Both property crime and violent crime were determined to be positively correlated with the intensity of drug enforcement activities.
LOL Yeah right. Libertarians are crazy.Me:
Violence and the U.S. Prohibitions of Drugs and AlcoholYou:
This paper examines the relation between prohibitions and violence using the historical behavior of the homicide rate in the United states. The results document that increases in enforcement of drug and alcohol prohibition have been associated with increases in the homicide rate, and auxiliary evidence suggests this positive correlation reflects a causal effect of prohibition enforcement on homicide. Controlling for other potential determinants of the homicide rate - the age composition of the population, the incarceration rate, economic conditions, gun availability, and the death penalty - does not alter the conclusion that drug and alcohol prohibition have substantially raised the homicide rate in the United States over much of the past 100 years.
Again. On the issue of legalization of drugs, libertarians are crazy. They're crazy to be taking such illicit substances and they're crazy to think the American people will never allow drugs like marijuana, heroin, and cocaine to be legalized. Ain't gonna happen.Me:
Alcohol Prohibition Was A FailureYou:The Volstead Act, passed to enforce the Eighteenth Amendment, had an immediate impact on crime. According to a study of 30 major U.S. cities, the number of crimes increased 24 percent between 1920 and 1921. The study revealed that during that period more money was spent on police (11.4+ percent) and more people were arrested for violating Prohibition laws (102+ percent). But increased law enforcement efforts did not appear to reduce drinking: arrests for drunkenness and disorderly conduct increased 41 percent, and arrests of drunken drivers increased 81 percent. Among crimes with victims, thefts and burglaries increased 9 percent, while homicides and incidents of assault and battery increased 13 percent.[42]
I see nothing ironic or wrong about "Reagan Man" calling Libertarians/libertarians crazy. If the shoe fits.Oh, yeah. You're a real bear.
Yeah, well, that's part of the, er, um, conspiracy!
Very true. But pretending dope is just like beer is pretty much all they've got.
"That a main source of difficulty is in the attitude of at least a very large number of respectable citizens in most of our large cities and in several states, is made more clear when the enforcement of the national prohibition act is compared with the enforcement of the laws as to narcotics. There is an enormous margin of profit in breaking the latter. The means of detecting transportation are more easily evaded than in the case of liquor. Yet there are no difficulties in the case of narcotics beyond those involved in the nature of the traffic because the laws against them are supported everywhere by a general and determined public sentiment."
--Report on the Enforcement of the Prohibition Laws (1931) by the National Commission on Law Observance and Enforcement
Personally, while I do think that the federal government has no constitutional dog to hunt with re: recreational drugs (with the exception of protecting our national borders & regulating traffic across state lines), I have no problem with state governments choosing to make their own drug laws as loose or as prohibitionists as their citizens desire. Folks could then move to the states that suits them best...& deal with the consequences whichever way they decide to go.
So everyone else who doesn't conform to your self righteous attitude is scum and low life?
Not only self righteous, but a hypocrite as well.
"The only alcholic beverage I consume is a very small sip of consecrated wine...I do not drink." [Direct contradiction]
You may not drink to access, but by taking even a small sip of wine, your STILL consuming or drinking an alcoholic beverage. Under the old 18th Amendment you'd still be arrested for possession of an alcoholic beverage.
Not at all. I'm simply making an observation on how some blame the object being abused instead of the one doing the abusing.
By falsely equating druggies with gun owners.
where in any of my posts did I even allude to anyone that did not agree with my views was scum?
and where the f*** do you get off calling me self-righteous or a hypocrite?
The 18th Amendment left that question to Congress, which allowed beer and sacramental wines. But don't let your ignorance stop you from posting falsehoods.
Ok. An individual uses an automobile to commit a crime, should we outlaw automobiles as well.
OMG I'm now "equating" cars and druggies.
Schu*ck
I have worked as a Substance Abuse Counselor for a court ordered program, and am a recovering addict myself. I currently work at a large county jail and see daily the number of people that are being arrested and jailed for possession.
Making drugs illegal has not worked at decreasing the market for drugs in America. And the only way that you are going to decrease the flow of drugs into this country is to take away the market.
It can be argued that if drugs were legal, and taxed and regulated by the government they would provide an income source for the government, as well as remove the black market aspect of the problem. Following that argument some believe that taking the money spent on the War on Drugs and putting it into treatment would best help the people who become addicted.
My personal view is that the war on drugs is a failure. The demand for illegal drugs remains high and the number of people going to prison or jail is at an all time high. There is always going to be a certain segment of the population, that for what ever reason, take a self destructive path in life and have no intention of being a productive member of society. Whether its by using alcohol, pot, or some of the harder drugs they are going to flush their life down the toilet. To be honest I have no problem with them doing that. It's there life and if they want to ruin it fine, let them. I will keep working with them, and watching them kill themselves, because every once in a while, one of them turns a corner and decides that they don't want that life.
As for those who go out and manufacture and sell the drugs to these people. Well there are some very nasty prisons out there, and we can always build more.
The problem with drugs, (and I include alcohol and tobacco in that) isn't a legal issue, or in my opinion a moral issue. It's a matter of responsibility and facing up to the facts that life isn't fair and sometimes it sucks. You can deal with it or hide from it, but it's the truth. I don't buy the argument that people who are addicted are weak minded, some have reached a point of having no choice. I also don't buy the idea that it's a disease that they cannot control. It's a condition brought on by behavior. Just like the type 2 diabetes that I have, it's brought on by my past behavior, poor eating, sedentary life style, and being over weight. Lots of disease is brought on by behavior, but that doesn't mean that is can't be controlled. and changed.
The war on drugs is not a war that is going to be won anytime soon, or ever. But that doesn't mean we should surrender and allow every drug out there to be legal. That is a mistake that this country does not want to consider making.
My .02 worth
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