[xzins]

Educational read.

[drstevej]

Xzins, a hypothesis:

When we (Calvinists) start to pin you to the wall on the doctrines of grace you try to shift the subject to eschatology hoping to get us to debate each other giving you cover for your strange (dead, deader deadest) and futile efforts to defend free choice.

This article is a cry for help, isn't it?

[RnMomof7]

LOL xzins...every time it gets hot in the doctrinal kitchen you run for the endtimes door..divide and conquer

Very transparent my man

[Jean Chauvin]

" And it is. Hoekema admits that a normal reading of Revelation 19 and 20 would not lead one to the amillennial position."

People who don't have a good argument often distort the words of others. Hoekema did ~NOT~ "admit" that a "normal reading" of Rev 19 and 20 would "not lead one to the amillennial position.".

Hoekema ~did~ say "If, then, one thinks of Revelation 20 as describing what follows chronologically after what is described in chapter 19, one would indeed conclude that the millennium of Revelation 20:1-6 will come after the return of Christ."

In other words. Hoekema is saying that if one assumes that Rev 20 chronologically follows Rev 19, then "one would indeed conclude that the millennium of Rev 20:1-6 will come after the return to Christ."

Hoekema is ~NOT~ saying this presumption of chronological order is the "normal reading".

Goodness, not even the Gospels, which are narrative historical accounts, are written chronologically!

Shame on the author for putting forth such a dishonest presentation!

Jean

[anncoulteriscool]

This is a really good website. Alot of John Macarthur sermons and stuff on here too!

[Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit]

I have a question that might make this thread a bit more interesting than a box of metamucial.

I always get agitated by accounts of time in the Bible. The primary reason for this is that the measurement of time is an invention of man, based on our relative position in the universe.

Since time is, in fact, relative,and God is a timeless being that exists on many planes, for Him, the human concept of time would be competely irrelavant. Thus, we cannot understand phrases in the Bible such as "six days" or "forty days and forty nights" or "1000 years" to be literal explanations of human time. Especially since the methods of keeping time have developed throughout human history. And, if one takes the creation story literally, before the creation of the earth and the sun, there would been no such thing as a "day", because that measure of the time is based on period of rotation of the earth.

These are just the thoughts that run through my head. Would love to har how others react to them.

[gdebrae]

...multiple New Testament passages which show that Satan is presently active and involved in deception. He is "the god of this world [who] has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ" (2 Corinthians 4:4). He is our adversary who "prowls about like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour" (1 Peter 5:8). In the church age he was able to fill the heart of Ananias (Acts 5:3) and "thwart" the work of God's ministers (1 Thess. 2:18). He is one for whom we must protect ourselves from by putting on the whole armor of God (Ephesians 6:10-19). Satan's influence in this age is so great that John declared "the whole world lies in the power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19).

Excellent point. Satan can only decieve those who are physically alive. He cannot decieve those who are physically dead. And the result of his decieving someone physically alive is that they are spiritual dead. Ephesians 2:1-6 makes that exceedingly clear.

Now what does that say about the meaning of the word "dead" in Rev 20:5 and 20:11-13. Since satan cannot decieve physically dead people, the decieved nations of Rev. 20 cannot be the physically dead in need of the resurrection of the body, but the spiritually dead in need of the new birth. Since the nations in verse 3 are not physically dead his binding does not and cannot result in the resurrection of the body.

John 5:24-29 clearly distinguishes between spiritual and physical resurrection.

Something to think about.

[WriteOn]

How do you interpret the fall of Satan?

Luk 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Luk 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

[winstonchurchill]

The amillennial view does not adequately do justice to the language of Revelation 20:1-3 According to the amillennial view, Satan is unable to deceive the nations as he did before the first coming of Christ, but he is still active and able to do harm in this age. His activities, then, have not ceased but are limited.27 This, however, does not do justice to what is described in Revelation 20:1-3. According to the text, Satan is "bound" with a "great chain" (vv.1-2) and thrown into the "abyss" that is "shut" and "sealed" for a thousand years (v. 3). This abyss acts as a "prison" (v. 7) until the thousand years are completed. The acts of binding, throwing, shutting and sealing indicate that Satan's activities are completely finished. As Mounce states: The elaborate measures taken to insure his [Satan's] custody are most easily understood as implying the complete cessation of his influence on earth (rather than a curbing of his activities)."

I hate to do this to you, because I realize that these discussions take on 'lives' of their own and wander far from the originally posted article. But in re-reading this, I felt the above-quoted comment raises two issues which I have been wanting to raise to you (and other premillenialists) on this issue.

1. I was recently reading in Matthew and came upon Jesus' interchange with the Pharisees over the source of His power to exorcise demons in Matthew 12:

"Then they brought to him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute. Jesus healed him so that he could speak and see. All the crowds were amazed and said, "Could this one be the Son of David?" But when the Pharisees heard this they said, "He does not cast out demons except by the power of Beelzebul, the ruler of demons!" Now when Jesus realized what they were thinking, he said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is destroyed, and no town or house divided against itself will stand. So if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? For this reason they will be your judges. But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has already come on you. How else can someone enter a strong man's house and steal his property, unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can thoroughly plunder the house."

Now I quote here 22 to 29 just to set the context. Here the Pharisees admit for the first time that Christ is exercising supernatural power, but they ascribe it to the devil. His response is to argue: (i) that to do so would place Satan against himself (thus defeating the argument that His power was from Satan) and then (ii)that no one could 'steal' the 'strong man's (Satan's) property' (i.e. the demononically occupied man) without first 'tying up' the strong man. This latter argument is essential to Jesus' case against the Pharisees because it is necessary to establish that the source of His power is that of the 'strong man's' adversary (i.e. God) and has the necessary effect of 'tying up' the strong man.

It seems clear to me beyond all doubt that the necessary predicate of Jesus' argument to the Pharisees here is that His (Jesus') power had the effect of 'tying up' Satan so as to allow Him to 'steal' Satan's property (the demoniac).

2. Now, if that be true, we have Jesus teaching that, at least in some sense, Satan was 'tied up' or 'bound' by Jesus. Now why should this control the interpretation of Revelation 20?

This brings me to my second, perhaps, controversial concept. There is, to me, a clear priority within Scripture. Even though I accept all Scripture as inspired, it is not all 'equal', i.e. the words of Christ, are more authoritative for interpretive uses than other portions and (you will love this), the very weakest of all are the flowery, dreamlike sequences of the last half of Revelation.

Our Calvinist friends would never admit that (at least in attempting to defend their construct) they filter all Scripture through the Pauline filter of Romans, but they (and many others) readily otherwise act as though Scripture verses (known to them as 'proof-texts') can be digitized and treated as stand-alone units. I think that most thoughtful students of Scripture agree that is improper.

But once we begin to approach Scripture as meaningful passages to be understood within their respective contexts and genres, we are left with apparent contradictions between blocks of meaning. I am quite confortable with a prioritization within the canon to resolve those dichotomies.

[Parenthetically, this also helps resolve some of the debates about 'this generation shall not pass away' (Christ's own words) versus some obscure prophecy of Daniel or dream from Revelation.] In short, the digital equivalency of Scripture verses is simply something that has been assumed by the participants in the current debate.

Now, I have stayed out of these debates, because I am tired of the Calvinist name-callers shouting 'heretic' and 'blasphemer' at everything which contradicts their construct. But I know you to be a thoughtful guy and I would invite your comments.

I also respect drstevej's thoughtfulness (when we are not discussing his favored construct -- which is not at issue here) and, accordingly, I would invite his thoughts as well.

Let me anticipate one last argument. I don't think this implicates the dctrine of plenary inspiration or 'inerrancy' but is rather more akin to what lawyers see in 'controlling interpretations' of superior (as opposed to inferior) courts. All courts are legitimate and exercise power in some sphere, but some have levels of authority to override interpretations given by others. That is the concept I posit (and try to apply).

[chance33_98]

to answer the question: No,I don't believe satan has already been bound.

[Starwind]

An hypothesis for fitting John 5:24-29 to Revelation 20.

For the record, this hypothesis is based on my literal interpretation of Rev 20 as well as John 5, all as noted throughout this thread. (Note: all cites are NASB)

In John 5:28-29, perhaps too much was made of the phrases 'an hour is coming and now is' and 'resurrection' (implying spiritual resurrections), and too little of 'coming forth' and 'of life vs of judgment'?

Jesus used the phrase 'an hour is coming and now is' in John 4:23 as well as John 5:25.

Jesus (in John 4:21) uses the phrase 'an hour is coming' in specific reference to when the Samarian woman at the well would no longer worship neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem, possibly alluding to when the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD would end Jewish worship as she knew it:

John 4:21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.

Jesus (in John 4:23) goes on to describe the central tenet of the church age (begun now with Jesus himself) that true worship will be in spirit (having resulted from salvation in Christ), and salavtion and its resulting true worship occurs on an individual basis, and this is ongoing to the end of the age - from an hour now through to an hour coming:

John 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

Jesus (in John 5:25) reuses "an hour is coming and now is" in John 5:25, when the spiritually dead will listen to Him (or the gospel), believe, and live eternally, and that this likewise begins now with Jesus and goes on to the end of the age - from an hour now through to an hour coming.

John 5:25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

(Yes, I'm quite aware I have interpreted transposing an hour 'now is' and' is coming' to fit this explanation, and arguably that would be an alteration of scripture. I'm not trying to slip this by anyone, but disclosing, attempting to find the most consistent interpretation of all scripture, including 1Thes 4:14-17 and all of Rev 20. So, indulge me momentarily).

Jesus (in John 5:28-29) then reuses "an hour is coming" again in reference to a specific future time when all will be judged according to their deeds. This is the white throne judgment.

John 5:28-29 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

We will all come forth to judgment at the white throne in a single hour, but we don't all come forth in resurrection in a single hour. The resurrection of life [zwhV <2222>] and the resurrection of judgement [krisewV <2920>] are two different resurrections:

2222 zoe dzo-ay' from 2198; life (literally or figuratively):--life(-time). Compare 5590.

2920 krisis kree'-sis decision (subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension, a tribunal; by implication, justice (especially, divine law):--accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.

All the saved who were in tombs (and alive) will come forth in a single hour in physical resurrection as well, but at the Rapture, before the white throne judgement. All the unsaved who remain in tombs will come forth in a single hour in physcial resurrection, but at the white throne.

And as they are two different resurrections, and the saved who have eternal life are resurrected prior to the white throne judgment (either at the rapture or the 1st resurrection); in this context 'an hour is coming' can not mean a single hour for two events but rather a single hour each for separate events; e.g. we all have our day in court, but each on separate days. And this contextual interpretation is further consistent with a physical thousand year millenium separating the resurrection of the saved to eternal life from the resurrection of the unsaved to eternal condemnation.

All will be judged according to their deeds (the saved and unsaved) and this judgement occurs in a single hour. All books are opened; the book of life as well as the books (of works or deeds). But the saved are in the book of life and the judgment of their good deeds results in their commensurate reward in heaven, whereas the unsaved are not in the book of life and the judgment of their deeds can not save them but only condemn them - their just reward as well for rejecting Christ.

Our reward in heaven likely varies by individual, based on our deeds (presumably as judged by Jesus and presumably at the white throne judgment):

Luke 6:35 "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.

1 Corinthians 3:8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

Colossians 3:23-25 Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve. For he who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong which he has done, and that without partiality.

2 John 1:8 Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.

Revelation 22:12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

So, I've tried to show the correspondence visually, but as implied above (and in light of my literal interpretation of Rev 20), I don't see much correspondence. Maybe someone can suggest improvements?

 

Sequence commentary	John chapter 5	Revelation chapter 20
Thousand years begin		2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
Judges on thrones and Tribulation Saints reign		4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
unsaved physcially dead stay dead		5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.
bodily resurrection of those saved after the Rapture		This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
people who believe unto eternal life should have been raptured prior to 1000 years - 1 Thes 4:14-17	24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Ongoing era of salavation when gospel is 'heard' 'spiritually dead' born anew into spiritual life. [the only dead in Rev 20 who 'hear' and live are the dead who stand (live) live at the white throne]	25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
	26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
Thousand years ends		7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
white throne judgment	27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.	11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
Singular event - physically dead in tombs	28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth;	12a And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life;
resurrection to life implies saved and raptured	29a those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life,
'dead' are judged on works	29b those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.	12b and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
		13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
		14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
		15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

Any and all, please do point out errors or omissions, or make other suggestions. I believe there a single consistent truth for all of God's word.

Thank you. Ok, so now let the "gotcha's begin.

[VOYAGER]

I am so aversed to the doctrine of amillennialism that even when the doctor wants to look at my throat and tells me to say 'ah' I refuse to.