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2 lawmakers spurn Muslim's prayer - Republicans step off House floor
Seattle Post-Intelligencer ^ | March 4, 2003 | ANGELA GALLOWAY

Posted on 03/04/2003 2:34:57 AM PST by sarcasm

OLYMPIA -- He prayed for the politicians, the state's prosperity and peace for all ethnicities and religions.

But when a Muslim cleric offered the opening prayer before the state House of Representatives yesterday, at least two lawmakers stepped off the chamber floor.

"It's an issue of patriotism," Rep. Lois McMahan, a conservative Republican from Gig Harbor, said of her decision to stand in the back of the room.

"The Islamic religion is so . . . part and parcel with the attack on America. I just didn't want to be there, be a part of that," she said. "Even though the mainstream Islamic religion doesn't profess to hate America, nonetheless it spawns the groups that hate America."

Rep. Cary Condotta, a Republican from East Wenatchee, also left the floor. He said the timing was not a coincidence, but he declined to comment further on why he left, except to say he was talking to another lawmaker and "let's just say I wasn't particularly interested."

A prayer is given at the beginning of each Senate and House session, and attendance is hit or miss, particularly on Mondays.

The interfaith organization Associated Ministries of Thurston County schedules the daily chaplain, said Cynthia Zehnder, clerk of the 98-member chamber. They have selected clerics representing a broad range of faiths, she said.

Imam Mohamad Joban, of the Islamic Center of Olympia, presented yesterday's brief opening prayer.

In part, he said: "We open this session of House of Representatives in the name of Allah the one God Abraham, God of Moses, God of Jesus, and God of Mohammed, peace be upon them all. . . . We ask Allah or God to bless the state of Washington so it may continue to prosper and become a symbol of peace and tranquility for people of all ethnic and religious backgrounds. We pray that Allah may guide this House in making good decisions for the people of Washington.

"At this time, we also pray that America may succeed in the war against terrorism. We pray to God that the war may end with world peace and tranquility."

Joban said the walkout was not hurtful, but ignorant.

"They're unable to distinguish between Islam as religion and way of life, and bad Muslims," said Joban, who has also given the opening prayer to the Senate. "They are easily able to distinguish between Christianity and bad Christians.

"They need to understand that like (President) Bush said . . . Islam is a peaceful religion."

Kathy Erlandson, director of Associated Ministries of Thurston County, found the small walkout disappointing, but not surprising.

"It makes me embarrassed to know that some of our legislators can't even treat someone with that common respect," she said. "He's an American citizen and he's praying for their work, then how can it be an act of patriotism to walk away?"

McMahan said she does not oppose having a Muslim cleric deliver the prayer.

Her departure was not a protest, but a personal decision not to participate because "the religion is the focal point of the hate-America sentiment in the world."

"My god is not Mohammed," McMahan added.

Joban said that if he were invited to give the opening prayer, he would do it again.

"Even if half of them leave it's OK for me," Joban said. "As a Muslim we have to respect what people believe and . . . we have to forgive something because of ignorance.

"The Holy Quran says that (one should) always respond to bad action with good and those who used to be enemies become friends."


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To: Kevin Curry
The same "Allah" that in the Q'aran commands the slaughter of Jews? The same "Allah" that inspired Muhammad to kill all the Jews of Medina?
I suppose Leviticus doesn't call out the death penalty for some pretty mild stuff. I suppose the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the Thirty Years War weren't inspired by faith.

-Eric

51 posted on 03/04/2003 4:53:28 AM PST by E Rocc
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To: Kevin Curry
I made that point in the email. In most Muslim countries we have NO tolerance for other religious faiths.

WE ARE BETTER THAN THEY ARE. Or at least, we ought to be.

52 posted on 03/04/2003 4:54:02 AM PST by Illbay
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To: Kevin Curry
My personal beliefs enter into it on FR. But if I were an elected official, I have no right to show disrespect to another religious faith in my elected capacity. I am a representative of those who elected me. No doubt there are Muslims among them.

Like I said, these people could have gone afterward and washed their mouths out with Scope. But standing in that chamber, they were obligated to show respect, representing the principles of the Constitution.

53 posted on 03/04/2003 4:55:52 AM PST by Illbay
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To: expatguy
I agree with you.

We are not fighting terrorism but a religion that will not stop until they will rule the world.

They are over six million in the USA. The World is blind to the Islam's clear teaching that all Muslims are commanded to kill the Infidels (Unbelievers) that do not submit to Islam.

All Countries that are ruled by Islam now were taken over by murdering their citizens.
Islam has spawned mass murder over the world in order to their Country. Allah commanded them to do it in the Koran.

Saudi Arabia has spent Many Billions of dollars in building Mosques
many in America and Europe. With the Imams trained at Al Akzar in Cairo, Egypt. Where all are trained to do anything and everything in anyway to take over the whole World.

All of the so called (Terrorists) have been spawned by Islam. Much of the News media in the USA and our President say Islam is a good and peaceful religion. You be the judge. Here are a few passages from the Koran

Sura… 5:51 O you who believe do not take the Jews and Christians for friends… Allah does not guide the unjust people…

Sura 9:5…Then slay the idolaters (That's all who do not believe in the Koran) wherever you find them and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush……

Sura …2:191 Kill them wherever you find them.

Sura 8:37 Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme…

Sura 4:74 When you meet the unbelievers on the battlefield strike of their heads……

All Countries that are now ruled by Islam were taken over by murdering their citizens.
Islam has spawned mass murder over the world



54 posted on 03/04/2003 4:56:23 AM PST by Giddyupgo
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To: nightdriver
[I]slam has been declared to be NOT under the purview of the First Ammendment of the Constitution by a Supreme Court ruling since 1892.

It's not fair to dangle that kind of bait.
Please supply a reference.

55 posted on 03/04/2003 4:56:52 AM PST by ppaul
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To: YOMO
How about praying for and instructing all RADICAL MUSLIMS to Disavow Terrorism and to turn in those who won't?

Sounds like quite a few of them are, in Guantanamo and "undisclosed locations outside the U.S."

56 posted on 03/04/2003 4:57:03 AM PST by Illbay
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To: kittymyrib
"The First Commandment: "Thou shalt have no other gods." That's a COMMAND, not a suggestion, from the Triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. No Christian should have stayed in his seat during the prayer to a false god."


Well said. All bible believing Christians know that we are saved by grace through faith in the blood atonement of God the Son at the cross of Jesus of Nazareth some 2000 years ago. Doctrinal Christians must come to God the Father through Jesus Christ ONLY BECAUSE HE ONLY PAID FOR MANKIND'S SINS and our sins are clensed by believing how that he died for our sins and rose the third day for our salvation; all mankind's sins were laid on the only innocent sinless man in history. Christians worship Jesus as the Christ of God and know that any other prayer to God other than through Christ is impotent and heresy.
These congress people did very well to leave. We tolerate other peoples views in our free society; neverthess we worship at the cross of Jesus Christ ONLY and not at any other.
57 posted on 03/04/2003 4:57:22 AM PST by wgeorge2001 (One God, one faith, one baptism. The Father,Son and Holy Spirit!)
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To: ppaul
I don't think that would be okay. It would not be appropriate to ask the Church of Satan to offer a prayer, nor would it be appropriate to have a Santeria priest make an animal sacrifice. Yes, there are limits, but those limits have been addressed ad nauseum in our jurisprudence.

A Muslim cleric is a far cry from a Satanist, no matter what some of you may think. I have ZERO consideration for Islam as a religion. But I have great consideration for the U.S. Constitution. Too bad these elected officials didn't.

58 posted on 03/04/2003 4:59:11 AM PST by Illbay
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To: Illbay
If a Rabbi had opened it in the name of Eloi would you have walked out?

I wouldn't have walked out... my Savior used that word himself.   How many times did He use Allah when calling on His Father?
59 posted on 03/04/2003 4:59:18 AM PST by GirlShortstop
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To: sarcasm
"As a Muslim we have to respect what people believe and . . . we have to forgive something because of ignorance."

Are you kidding?

60 posted on 03/04/2003 4:59:54 AM PST by DCPatriot
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To: Eaker
Why was the walkout not free speech?

It was. It was simply INAPPROPRIATE time and place for an elected official to demonstrate. What they did was just wrong, and it was an embarrassment to the Republican party.

61 posted on 03/04/2003 5:00:13 AM PST by Illbay
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To: Illbay; All
Simple question.

What do you do when a religion advocates the overthrowing of the government and constitution?

62 posted on 03/04/2003 5:07:19 AM PST by expatguy
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To: Illbay
And "Allah" is Arabic for the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

It is also the word Muslims use to refer to their moon god who Muhammad chose out of the pantheon enshrined in Mecca, just as the Mormons use the same word as Christians to refer to their "god", a man who came from the planet Kolob. Just because someone uses the same word for something, does not denote the genuine article, no more than calling a "Chevy" a "Ford" makes it a Chevy. Often times, spiritual counterfeits use words and names to deceive potential followers.

63 posted on 03/04/2003 5:10:01 AM PST by ppaul
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To: E Rocc
"Now you're saying that it meant the First Amendment didn't apply to non-Christian faiths? Are you including Judaism too?"

I'm not saying or including anything. I'm merely telling you what already IS. NYSSC, 1892. Immigration issue. Ruling on the meaning of "religion" in the First Ammendment. Look it up yourself.

64 posted on 03/04/2003 5:17:45 AM PST by nightdriver
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To: sarcasm
At least two recognize is-slime for what it truly is!
65 posted on 03/04/2003 5:20:25 AM PST by neutrino (1eV... and still able to zing along!)
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To: nightdriver
A Google search turned up nothing when I typed in your reference. Can you please provide more details?
66 posted on 03/04/2003 5:22:18 AM PST by ppaul
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To: Illbay
Ecumenicism between Islam and Christianity is akin to marrying a scorpion to a lamb.

Have the courage of your convictions, man. Peacefully converting Muslims to Christianity is an entirely different matter than accomodating Islam according to some bonehead notion of world religion ecumenicism doomed to destroy one or both participants in the unnatural act.

67 posted on 03/04/2003 5:22:47 AM PST by Kevin Curry
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To: Illbay
CORRECTION:

....no more than calling a "Chevy" a "Ford" makes it a Chevy Ford.

LOL


68 posted on 03/04/2003 5:25:46 AM PST by ppaul
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To: Alouette
The Christan God has a Son; the Muslim god does not. And they are emphatic about it; therefore, when we speak of God we are thinking of a different one than are they, and their use of the same names or derivatives of names does not imply that they adopted the same god others think of when using those names.

If a Christian Arab uses the term Allah, he's thinking of the same God as other Christians, in other words, the God who is a Father with a Son, and ONLY the Father who has a Son named Jesus. The god the Muslims worship, Allah, has no son, and according to their god's book, and so, according to Muslim belief, Allah says Jesus is merely a prophet and not his son. It's not just a matter of them not knowing of the Son, it is a matter of their deliberate worship of a god who has no son, no messiah. Clearly then, they worship something different, though they have appropriated the same names and their terminology may descend from both Christian and Jewish sources.

For example, if I said I am interested in cardinals, one group of people might assume I am a bird lover.

Another might assume I am a St. Louis baseball fan.

Yet another might assume I am an Arizona football fan.

But to know what I am referring to, what matters is what I am thinking when I say it, and the context in which I say it, not what others assume based only on what they personally think of when they hear the word "cardinals."

When I said "cardinals" I meant the baseball team. Baseball teams are not red birds, red birds aren't football teams, and football teams are not clergymen in red robes. Thus when I say cardinal in my context, and when the Pope says cardinal in his context, there is no reason to assume we mean the same thing. It doesn't matter that the baseball team was named after a bird whose color reminded someone of the robes of Catholic clergymen.

And it doesn't matter that Islam's Allah is an Arabic word derived from a Hebrew one for a Hebrew God, and that the Hebrew term El Shaddai is also one used in Christianity; the Islamic Allah is not the same as the Christian God, any more than my St. Louis baseball players are bright red birds. The Islamic god is a master of slaves; the Christian one and indeed the Jewish one has a relationship of Father to free people.

69 posted on 03/04/2003 5:26:36 AM PST by piasa (Attitude adjustments offered here free of charge.)
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To: Illbay
What they did was wrong, and it was embarrassing to Republicans everywhere.

This is still nothing more than a personal opinion.

I am a Republican. I am not embarrassed. We all complain about spineless RINOs. Here are a couple who are principled.

They only made a political statement which is what politicians tend to do. This new tolerance stuff is beyond reason.

70 posted on 03/04/2003 5:28:41 AM PST by Dataman
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To: E Rocc
I suppose the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the Thirty Years War weren't inspired by faith.

You aren't a history buff, are you?

71 posted on 03/04/2003 5:33:35 AM PST by Dataman
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To: sarcasm
In part, he said: "We open this session of House of Representatives in the name of Allah the one God Abraham, God of Moses, God of Jesus, and God of Mohammed, peace be upon them all. . . . We ask Allah or God to bless the state of Washington so it may continue to prosper and become a symbol of peace and tranquility for people of all ethnic and religious backgrounds. We pray that Allah may guide this House in making good decisions for the people of Washington.

What horsesh_t. I would have left myself. Allah has nothing to do with my G_d of the Old Testament. As Johnny Paycheck (RIP) might say: Take your moon god and shove it.

Christians have the same G_d I do and Muslims do not. Big difference. Islam looks upon itself as the completion of Christianity and Judaism. I outright reject this. Christianity also looks upon itself as completion of Judaism but this is not propagated with a vengeance in this day and age so it doesn't bother me. Many Christians are better supporters of Israel/Jersusalem/Temple Mount than are spoiled, liberal Jews.
 
 

72 posted on 03/04/2003 5:34:28 AM PST by dennisw ( http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/weblog.php)
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To: libertylover
A little quiet respect and tolerance is all that's asked in both situations.

Sorry, but you are wrong! The only reason this was even reported was because it had to do with Islam!

If two or more legislatures walked out during a prayer given by a rabi or a priest, this would be NO NEWS!

The question is not "tolerance" but one of forcing us to believe something which is patently untrue. Islam is NOT a religion of peace, it never has been and never will be.

73 posted on 03/04/2003 5:36:19 AM PST by An.American.Expatriate
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To: expatguy
Well, there is a significant number of U.S. Congresspersons--the Socialist Caucus--that advocates the same thing. What do you do about that?
74 posted on 03/04/2003 5:36:33 AM PST by Illbay
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To: All
Everybody, let's sing along with Illbay:

Allah rowed the boat ashore
Hare Krishhhh-na
Allah rowed the boat ashore
Hare Kri-ish-na . . .

Illbay: "I don't hear a single Muslim, Christian, or Hindu singing! All I hear are the feminists and Unitarians. The rest of you are all bigots!"

75 posted on 03/04/2003 5:37:40 AM PST by Kevin Curry
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Comment #76 Removed by Moderator

To: Kevin Curry
This isn't "ecumenism." The government has no busy concerning itself with "ecumenism" or any other question of religion. It is a question of the CONSTITUTIONAL recognition that the government is neutral in matters of religion.

The legislature of this state represents Muslim, Christian, and Jewish constitutents, among others. They have no constitutional right to show preference.

If this is such a problem, then stop having prayers at all.

77 posted on 03/04/2003 5:40:37 AM PST by Illbay
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To: piasa
The Christan God has a Son; the Muslim god does not.

Neither does the Jewish. Would you have supported the walkout had this been a rabbi? Or are you ready to admit that this is a POLITICAL and not a religious gesture?

78 posted on 03/04/2003 5:42:00 AM PST by Illbay
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To: sarcasm
How come a Hindu isn't giving a prayer for the Senate? Hindus are not on a Jihad so they are much better candidates. I very much resent this lame-o Muslim prayer that tries to put Islam on the same level as Judaism and Christianity. A Hindu or Buddhist prayer would not be offensive since they don't seek to rip off or play mind games with my religion.
79 posted on 03/04/2003 5:43:18 AM PST by dennisw ( http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/weblog.php)
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To: newgeezer
Politicians with nards bump.
80 posted on 03/04/2003 5:44:12 AM PST by biblewonk
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To: Illbay
The fact is, these are elected officials. THey have a responsibility to act accordingly in their office. This was simply WRONG.

You are right. I disagree only with your thinking that they should resign. It's not a grievous error, IMO.

81 posted on 03/04/2003 5:44:14 AM PST by arasina
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To: Dataman
This "tolerance" that you are sneering at happens to be enshrined in our Constitution.

I've noticed that some who consider themselves "conservatives" are somewhat ambivalent about constitutional protections.

82 posted on 03/04/2003 5:44:23 AM PST by Illbay
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To: Illbay
What a doofus you are


I think you're a doofus pal...a big time doofus
83 posted on 03/04/2003 5:46:04 AM PST by dagoofyfoot
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To: An.American.Expatriate
The only reason this was even reported was because it had to do with Islam!

You REALLY THINK that it wouldn't have been reported if the walkout had occurred, regardless of who was praying?

I disagree. And further, it would have been JUST as odious had it been a Leftist Democrat atheist walking out on a Christian minister.

Personal beliefs have no place in this action, no more than they would when a judge was considering a case in law. When you are standing in your place as an elected official, you represent that office, not yourself.

84 posted on 03/04/2003 5:47:02 AM PST by Illbay
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To: Illbay
Well, there is a significant number of U.S. Congresspersons--the Socialist Caucus--that advocates the same thing. What do you do about that?

Thank goodness they don't have a militant wing as Islam does.

85 posted on 03/04/2003 5:48:31 AM PST by expatguy
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To: Illbay
Neither does the Jewish.

Ooh. Good one.

86 posted on 03/04/2003 5:49:45 AM PST by far sider
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To: arasina
I guess my opinion that they should resign is because they were showing disrespect for their elected office. When you are an elected official, there are often times when you have to put aside personal beliefs, and stand in that office. If you can't do that, you shouldn't be in the office.
87 posted on 03/04/2003 5:49:56 AM PST by Illbay
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To: Illbay
From the article:

A prayer is given at the beginning of each Senate and House session, and attendance is hit or miss, particularly on Mondays.

I guess this means that the legislators who are not present / walk out for "business" or any other reason on any other day all also Bigots? I assume that you, Illbay will also call for thier resignation?

The only "tolerance" garenteed in the constitution is that: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; ". This does not force us to listen to them, only to allow them to beleive what they want to. That is true tolerance, both sides tolerate each other!

88 posted on 03/04/2003 5:51:32 AM PST by An.American.Expatriate
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To: expatguy
Thank goodness they don't have a militant wing as Islam does.

Who do you think it was tearing up Seattle a couple of years ago? If we go to war, the same bunch has threatened to "shut down" San Francisco.

How do you figure they're not "militant"?

IMO those people are a far greater domestic threat than American Muslims.

89 posted on 03/04/2003 5:51:33 AM PST by Illbay
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To: Illbay
Take your Ritalin chill pill!
90 posted on 03/04/2003 5:51:35 AM PST by dennisw ( http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/weblog.php)
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To: An.American.Expatriate
Your argument is spurious. But it brings up a point: Why couldn't these legislators have just been inconspicuously absent on that day?

I suspect it is because they wanted to stage their bigoted bit of performance art.

91 posted on 03/04/2003 5:53:19 AM PST by Illbay
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To: Illbay
The only reason this was even reported was because it had to do with Islam


I don't really give a rats behind why it was reported. God help the first islamic loser that tries to shove this crap down my throat. I wouldn't have walked out, I would have thrown him out!
92 posted on 03/04/2003 5:53:35 AM PST by dagoofyfoot
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To: Illbay
re-read the article. Attendance is "hit and miss". Walking out is probably also common. There is nothing in the consititution which would force me to listen to the religious views of someelse, regardless of my office. That is the "tolerance" the constitution provides for.

IMHO, you are being intolerant of someone who believes it is improper to listen to a prayer offered to (in thier opinion) a false god.
93 posted on 03/04/2003 5:55:28 AM PST by An.American.Expatriate
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To: sarcasm
Islam is a peaceful religion

And the 50-year old skanky whore standing found on a street corner in a metropolitan cesspool is a virgin

94 posted on 03/04/2003 5:55:44 AM PST by Mulder
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To: Illbay
Who do you think it was tearing up Seattle a couple of years ago?

Actually, those were gov't operatives. The troublemakers, dressed in black ninja gear (who else do we know that has a black ninja gear fetish?), were allowed to ransack businesses and property while the police literally stood by and watched.

The next day, this group was out of sight and the police decided to crack down on the peaceful protestors.

Alex Jones has done a documentary on this, and the evidence is very compelling.

95 posted on 03/04/2003 5:59:07 AM PST by Mulder
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To: An.American.Expatriate
...you are being intolerant of someone who believes it is improper to listen to a prayer offered to (in thier opinion) a false god.

Not at all. In fact, I would make sure that I, as a PRIVATE CITIZEN, would not be present to hear such a prayer.

But we're not talking about "private citizens," we're talking about elected officials. They have no right to such personal expressions when they stand in that office.

96 posted on 03/04/2003 6:00:15 AM PST by Illbay
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To: sarcasm
Maybe they just walked out because they thought that the "prayer" would involve sniffing each other's butts as they are fond of doing in turd-world moslem countries.
97 posted on 03/04/2003 6:00:36 AM PST by Mulder
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To: Illbay
I said:

"From the article:

A prayer is given at the beginning of each Senate and House session, and attendance is hit or miss, particularly on Mondays.

I guess this means that the legislators who are not present / walk out for "business" or any other reason on any other day all also Bigots? I assume that you, Illbay will also call for thier resignation?

The only "tolerance" garenteed in the constitution is that: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; ". This does not force us to listen to them, only to allow them to beleive what they want to. That is true tolerance, both sides tolerate each other! "

You said:

"Your argument is spurious."

spu·ri·ous ( P ) Pronunciation Key (spyr-s)
adj. Lacking authenticity or validity in essence or origin; not genuine; false.

Please tell my which parts of my post were "spurious".

You sir, do not like facts and, when confronted with them chose to hide from them instead of confront them!

98 posted on 03/04/2003 6:04:23 AM PST by An.American.Expatriate
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To: Illbay
But we're not talking about "private citizens," we're talking about elected officials. They have no right to such personal expressions when they stand in that office.

Where is it written that an elected official gives up his/her right to religious freedom when they are elected?

99 posted on 03/04/2003 6:06:12 AM PST by An.American.Expatriate
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To: Illbay
But I have great consideration for the U.S. Constitution.

Really? coulda fooled me.

100 posted on 03/04/2003 6:06:42 AM PST by thepitts (We The People)
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