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To: rcofdayton
That is false. There was no secession from the Union when the government was changed. The Articles stated in many places that the Union was PERPETUAL. It never claimed the government was perpetual.

Those attempting to deceive the unaware conveniently forget there is a difference between a nation and a government. Wonder why?
110 posted on 06/12/2003 12:31:39 PM PDT by justshutupandtakeit (RATS will use any means to denigrate George Bush's Victory.)
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To: justshutupandtakeit; Non-Sequitur
And, the motto "E Pluribus Unum" -- Out of Many, One -- was adopted by the United States Government several years PRIOR to the Constitution.
117 posted on 06/12/2003 12:33:53 PM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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To: justshutupandtakeit
The Articles stated in many places that the Union was PERPETUAL. It never claimed the government was perpetual.

And the Constitution never once referenced said Articles nor mentioned perpetual. So it must have been a different form of government established, a voluntary one. Hmmmm....

147 posted on 06/12/2003 6:30:09 PM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: justshutupandtakeit; rcofdayton
That is false. There was no secession from the Union when the government was changed. The Articles stated in many places that the Union was PERPETUAL. It never claimed the government was perpetual.

Those attempting to deceive the unaware conveniently forget there is a difference between a nation and a government. Wonder why?

The Articles of Confederation, at Article 13, states:

"Every State shall abide by the determination of the United States in Congress assembled, on all questions which by this confederation are submitted to them. And the Articles of this Confederation shall be inviolably observed by every State, and the Union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them; unless such alteration be agreed to in a Congress of the United States, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures of every State....".

Representatives of 12 of the 13 members of said perpetual union got together in Philadelphia (Rhode Island refused to send a representative), proposed an entirely new government, and The Constitution, at Article 7 states:

"The ratification of the conventions of nine States shall be sufficient for the establishment of this Constitution between the States so ratifying the same."

June 21, 1788: New Hampshire (57-46) was the ninth state to ratify
June 26, 1788: Virginia (89-79) ratified.
July 26, 1788: New York (30-27) ratified.
Eleven states had ratified.

March 1788: Rhode Island (232-2,708) rejected the Constitution.
August 1, 1788: North Carolina (88-188) rejected the Constitution.

30 Apr 1789 - George Washington inaugurated

After 30 Apr 1789, 11 states had formed a new nation. George Washington was the first president of that new nation. Clearly, North Carolina and Rhode Island could not then have been states under the Constitution. They voted to reject it. It was some considerable time after Washington's inauguration before those two states ratified.

21 Nov 1789 - North Carolina (193-75) ratified
29 May 1790 - Rhode Island (34-32) ratified

The Articles of Confederation establish that they could not be changed except upon approval of the legislatures of all 13 states. Clearly, that had not happened.

While the Constitution asserts that it is effective upon the ratification of 9 states, it does not assert that the Articles of Confederation are abolished by that action.

If the union formed by the Articles of Confederation was perpetual and unbreakable, what union existed immediately after Washington was inaugurated?

Rhode Island and North Carolina had already voted not to accept the Constitution.

If the 11 states lawfully seceded, (subsequently followed by the last 2), then certainly they could lawfully form any new government they desired, in any manner desired.

However, if they did not secede, how did they lawfully change so much as one word of the Articles of Confederation while two states had voted to reject the change?

166 posted on 06/12/2003 11:51:48 PM PDT by nolu chan
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To: justshutupandtakeit
That is false. There was no secession from the Union when the government was changed. The Articles stated in many places that the Union was PERPETUAL. It never claimed the government was perpetual.

Good point.

E PLURIBUS UNUM was adopted in 1782, and so it has remained unbroken since that time.

Walt

177 posted on 06/13/2003 7:50:17 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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