Posted on 02/15/2010 10:49:42 AM PST by anotherview
The Washington Post had an article by Howard Schneider yesterday about the dispute over property in in Sheikh Jarrah, a small Arab neighborhood in eastern Jerusalem. I have no problem with an article that presents both the Israeli and Palestinian side of a story like this. I have a huge problem with asserting facts which simply are not in evidence and skewing the picture in favor of one side, in this case the Palestinians.
The article plays fast and loose with the facts. For example, it states that
"Israel asserts its jurisdiction over the entire city -- including Arab areas it captured in a 1967 war and annexed in a step not recognized by the international community."
First, the United States did recognize all of Jerusalem as part of Israel in The Jerusalem Embassy Relocation Act, passed overwhelmingly by Congress and signed into law by President Clinton. In addition there are several countries which do have embassies in Jerusalem. To say that the "international community" as a whole doesn't recognize Israel's sovereignty over eastern Jerusalem is inaccurate. The international community is not monolithic and is divided on this issue unless, of course, you don't consider the United States part of the international community.
Yes, the Obama administration has protested the eviction of Arabs from Sheikh Jarrah. They argue that any change of the status quo undermines the peace process. Never mind that the land was taken by force from Jewish owners in 1948. Never mind that the United Nations, which moved the original 28 Arab families into the neighborhood, never obtained or provided any title to the property. Never mind that the families would have had tenancy rights and could not be evicted under Israeli law if they paid rent to the rightful owners. Never mind that the issue was decided through a very long legal process, complete with appeals and due process of law. None of those facts matter. The Obama administration has decided, in advance of any negotiation, that Jerusalem will be divided again. Never mind that President Obama has no say in the matter whatsoever, has no jurisdiction over Jerusalem, and is in effect ignoring American law.
Yes, the article does mention the Jewish ownership but it assumes that "East Jerusalem" is rightfully somehow Palestinian. Please read my post on the relevant parts of the history of Jerusalem from 2007. One point which every article like this ignores:
What made east Jerusalem Arab? 19 years of illegal Jordanian occupation ending in 1967. In 1948 when Jordan captured the old, walled city they destroyed 58 synagogues. 58! I somehow don't think Arabs were worshiping in those synagogues. Yep, in 1948 there were still lots of Jews in "Arab East Jerusalem".
As the article correctly points out, Silwan, another eastern Jerusalem neighborhood embroiled in a property dispute, was a haven for Yemeni Jews in the 1800s. These were Jews escaping persecution in the Arab world. Why are changes which are a result of Jordanian occupation just fine while reversing those changes as a result of Israel capturing the eastern part of the city unacceptable? Somehow it's acceptable to ignore the fact that there were Israeli controlled enclaves in "East Jerusalem" between 1948 and 1967 and there never was a clean east/west division of the city.
Certainly the Obama administration is working under false assumptions when it comes to Jerusalem. The President of the United States should know better. Unfortunately, the position of his administration is nothing new. It is a continuation of misguided Bush administration policy. The last President who seemed to understand the history was Bill Clinton. How do those who claim that American Jews or a pro-Israel lobby have some sort of undo influence on U.S. foreign policy explain a decidedly pro-Palestinian position on an issue so critical not only to Israel but to Jewish identity as a whole?
The article assumes, like so many others, that "East Jerusalem" is Arab, period, end of story. To the Washington Post this clearly isn't open to debate. They even have the Office of the President agreeing with this incorrect assertion. History to the contrary is conveniently ignored. This is a sort of pernicious, almost hidden media bias in favor of the Palestinians and against Israel. Since the Washington Post is so well respected their assumptions become the assumptions of many in the American public. After all, who has the authority and credibility to challenge the Washington Post, especially when their misinformation is repeated at the highest levels of government?
I’ll point out that we Jews deny that Jesus was in any way a deity as well.
Religious arguments are irresolvable and don’t help make the Jewish case, IMHO. That’s why I don’t argue based on my own beliefs. Chana was very right to argue this based on history.
Psalms Chapter 2 1 Why do the nations rage, And the people plot a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, And the rulers take counsel together, Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying, 3 "Let us break Their bonds in pieces And cast away Their cords from us." 4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; The Lord shall hold them in derision. 5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath, And distress them in His deep displeasure: 6 "Yet I have set My King On My holy hill of Zion." 7 "I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. 8 Ask of Me, and I will give You The nations for Your inheritance, And the ends of the earth for Your possession. 9 You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel.' " 10 Now therefore, be wise, O kings; Be instructed, you judges of the earth. 11 Serve the Lord with fear, And rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, And you perish in the way, When His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.
Psalm 83 1 A Song. A Psalm of Asaph. Do not keep silent, O God! Do not hold Your peace, And do not be still, O God! 2 For behold, Your enemies make a tumult; And those who hate You have lifted up their head. 3 They have taken crafty counsel against Your people, And consulted together against Your sheltered ones. 4 They have said, "Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation, That the name of Israel may be remembered no more." 5 For they have consulted together with one consent; They form a confederacy against You: 6 The tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites; Moab and the Hagrites; 7 Gebal, Ammon, and Amalek; Philistia with the inhabitants of Tyre; 8 Assyria also has joined with them; They have helped the children of Lot. Selah 9 Deal with them as with Midian, As with Sisera, As with Jabin at the Brook Kishon, 10 Who perished at En Dor, Who became as refuse on the earth. 11 Make their nobles like Oreb and like Zeeb, Yes, all their princes like Zebah and Zalmunna, 12 Who said, "Let us take for ourselves The pastures of God for a possession." 13 O my God, make them like the whirling dust, Like the chaff before the wind! 14 As the fire burns the woods, And as the flame sets the mountains on fire, 15 So pursue them with Your tempest, And frighten them with Your storm. 16 Fill their faces with shame, That they may seek Your name, O Lord. 17 Let them be confounded and dismayed forever; Yes, let them be put to shame and perish, 18 That they may know that You, whose name alone is the Lord, Are the Most High over all the earth.
I would go one step further, and argue that any resort to "faith-based dogma" of any kind disqualifies any argument from a discussion in a news thread at any time.
Aren't there faith based rooms in FR where the people so inclined can beat their heads against the wall (or against each others') to their heart's content?
12/11/2009 | Jim Robinson
Posted on December 11, 2009 7:57:16 PM CST by Jim Robinson
Free Republic is a fringe right-wing Christian fundamentalist site... or so they say... and they might even be right.
We don't go for any of that godless left-wing big government socialist malarkey. And we do put our faith and trust in God, not government. We are pro-God, pro-Life, pro-Family, pro-Country and pro-Liberty.
We do not believe that government or science knows what's best for us or our children. We will make our own decisions thank you very much.
Every once in a while some group of posters get together and try to bend Free Republic to their will. Now, we tend to be pretty free-wheeling around here and will take a lot of guff and a lot of obnoxious insults from a lot of people, but eventually a breaking point is reached.
For example, when a group of RINO lovers recently banded together to try to force FR to accept an abortionist/gay rights RINO as our presidential candidate, they soon found themselves on the outs.
And a few years ago a group of evolutionists tried to force FR over to their way of thinking and they soon found themselves on the outs.
FR is a pro-God, pro-Creator, pro-Life, pro-Liberty site.
And now we have yet another group of Darwinists trying to have their Darwinist way with us. Well, as I've said before what doesn't kill us will only make us stronger.
Darwin Central has again declared war on FR. They have ping lists and email lists and will try to pull away as many FReepers as they possibly can. So be it. Those who would rather go with Darwin, please go. I sure as hell won't try to stop you.
FR will remain a pro-God, pro-Life, pro-Liberty, pro-Creator conservative site.
We wholeheartedly believe that our unalienable rights are a gift from God our Creator not from man or government. And no man, no government will ever deprive us of same.
Keep your powder dry.
So, does that mean that I, as a Jew, am not welcome here? Does that mean that Freepers are going to try and convert me? If so, I’ll disappear permanently.
So, does that mean that I, as a Jew, am not welcome here? Does that mean that Freepers are going to try and convert me? If so, I’ll disappear permanently.
You can always ask Jim Robinson, but if you go through that thread, you'll see what he said about that...
BUT the quick answer is, basically, no, that's not the case (as you imply)... However don't expect this site to conform to something else other than what was said there, even though many others are allowed to post here, and also have values that they work for in the same manner as Christians.
We're not going to get rid of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, out of these discussions or as the rationale behind discussing news articles or agree with atheists here or go along with Darwinism, when it disagrees with the Bible (and so on, as stated above)...
So don't expect that and don't go trying to change Free Republic to conform to some of these "Godless ideals" that are out there in the world.
Does that mean that Freepers are going to try and convert me?
Ummm..., I would expect so... but that's not so bad, is it? :-)
I mean, keep in mind the Muslims don't "dialog" -- they just blow themselves up and chop off heads, and threaten to drown Jews in the Mediterranean, and annihilate them...
You’d be hard-pressed to find better defense of Israel and conservative Jews than FR.
And I would go a bit further and say that in the Evangelical Christian block of voters and participants on Free Republic, you'll never find a stronger supporting group of people than those.
They'll basically all "go to the death" for Israel, because of what the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob says about Israel, in the Bible -- and they believe it, 100% and whole-heartedly.
There are a lot of Israeli leaders and others in Israel that realize that this one block of voters and/or people are the biggest supporters of Israel in the world (if not in the United States).
[But, for a "qualification" here, this doesn't pertain to all Christians, but to primarily to the Evangelical Christian block of believers and almost 100% in the Bible-believing, prophecy-teaching block, for sure...]
That's true for the most part, but when I suggested that the best to sell the idea of defending Israel is based on facts, not religion, I was treated to scripture and a post explaining that everything on this site is based on Christian religion. If that's true then I don't fit in at all. I was a Reagan Republican when I lived in the States. I thought that was good enough to be a Freeper.
The same American Jewish woman who wrote this piece also wrote an explanation of why so many American Jews voted for President Obama. This part is important for Republicans to understand:
Jewish Americans who aren’t wedded to the Republican Party or the conservative movement still distrust evangelicals with good reason. First, they seek tirelessly to convert us to Christianity and strip us of our Jewish religion, traditions, and culture. Second, for many evangelicals their support for Israel includes a prophetic view of the future in which the Jewish people either accept Jesus or are slaughtered in a coming apocalypse. Consequently they support the most right wing and intransigent forces in Israel who work against any hope of peace at any time in the future. Sorry, but to most American Jews these people are not our friends.
What she wrote is definitely not true of all evangelical Christians but it is true of some very vocal ones. This may make me unpopular on Free Republic to the point of having to finally leave but, honestly, she is 100% right. I deeply distrust SOME of the evangelical support of Israel.
YES! Jews do not believe in converting others. We also find proselytizing highly offensive. If you want to offend Jewish people just try and convert us. Works every time for about 99% of Jews.
All Muslims? Really? Some of my Israeli Arab Muslim neighbors would be shocked to learn that they have these views. The Bedouin who volunteer for service in the IDF and are our best trackers would be surprised to know they have such views. The Druze, who are historically loyal to Israel, certainly don't know this about themselves. Should I go on?
I like a fantastic Arab-owned restaurant. They've had many opportunities to poison me or kill me in some other way. They have mainly Jewish customers. They could kill many. Why haven't they?
You wouldn't want me to paint Christians with a broad brush, would you? You can't do that with Muslims either.
YES! Jews do not believe in converting others. We also find proselytizing highly offensive. If you want to offend Jewish people just try and convert us. Works every time for about 99% of Jews.
Well, I'm afraid you'll be offended then... but that's nothing new on Free Republic... people get offended here all the time... so nothing new there... LOL...
Ummm..., you have heard about your own country-men (not excluding the women here) who are called Messianic Jews, haven't you? I mean, Evangelical Christians would consider those Jews to be their "brothers in Christ"... so which are you offended more by -- them being Messianic Jews or Christians being their brothers in Christ -- or both together?
And then, you've got to remember, too... that Jesus was considered to be the Messiah of Israel by Jews themselves (the Gentile Christians came much later). And so, Jesus was a Jew, all His disciples were Jews, all the new converts in the beginning were Jews... and those "Jews" went out and got a bunch of "Gentiles" converted ... to boot.
So, I would say that this whole thing was the fault of the Jews -- in the first place... wouldn't you? LOL...
Messianic Jews are considered Christians by all of the streams of Judaism without exception. They are considered to have abandoned the Jewish faith. You’ll notice I said 99% of Jews would be offended. I guess they fall into the 1%.
Oh, and if those people preach Christianity here and weren’t born here they are considered to have made aliya under false pretenses and can be deported. Trying to convert Jews to Christianity is illegal in Israel. Part of being a Jewish state.
All Muslims? Really?
Of course not all Muslims... or else the Jews wouldn't be so effective in penetrating and gathering intel on them... :-) [they've got to have some cooperation with some Muslims, doncha know...]
I like a fantastic Arab-owned restaurant. They've had many opportunities to poison me or kill me in some other way. They have mainly Jewish customers. They could kill many. Why haven't they?
I have listened to Walid Shoebat who grew up a Muslim, and was a former terrorist against Israel, who is now a Christian. He speaks on that very thing you're talking about.
He mentions that Jews go into these kinds of restaurants (as you say) and everything is seemingly fine... great so far...
But, Walid Shoebat, being able to speak the language and having some Jewish friends with him (at a certain Arab-owned restaurant) managed to speak with the owner, and asked him why he was so nice and accommodating to the Jews (who were right at the table with Walid but didn't understand what he was talking about). Walid Shoebat quoted relevant parts of the Koran to them about the Jews and thus asked them why they treated the Jews so nicely. The answer he got back was revealing of the attitude.
They said, it will happen at the right time and then they will "take out all the Jews"... in the meantime, they are waiting.
Walid Shoebat, having grown up to be a man in "Palestine" (as he put it back then) and having been a terrorist, recruited by other terrorists (and he went to jail, too, in Israel), and knowing the people over there (in Israel and the territories), says that this is the attitude for the greater and majority part of the population over there. He says, make no mistake about it, for the most part, Muslims will kill the Jews when they get the chance, and follow according to what the Koran says...
And this is not Walid Shoebat's limited opinion, as there are other converted Muslims who speak to the same thing.
Another one who is a big spokesperson for the evils of Islam and what Muslims think, in general is Brigitte Gabriel. She tells what Muslims did to her country, when she was growing up as a child and teenager in Lebanon.
I wouldn't be trusting any Muslim any further than I could throw them... :-)
You wouldn't want me to paint Christians with a broad brush, would you? You can't do that with Muslims either.
Go ahead and "paint away"... I'll help out where I can. I've already made some distinctions up above, but I'm more than willing to make some more... :-)
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