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Fastest M-4gery in the East (Friday Night Gun Thread)
Travis McGee | June 18, 2010 | Travis McGee

Posted on 06/18/2010 5:25:32 PM PDT by Travis McGee

Okay, this wasn't a bench-by-bench comparison. But I did shoot one rifle last week at my range, and the other rifle today at a guest range. Both ranges are in Florida, if you care, on opposite coasts.

Both rifles were comparable M-4gerys. Top end or close to to top end. (Not junk.) Similar stocks, barrels, etc. I'm not going to mention the makes, because it's not the point of my essay tonight. Trust me, both are fine, fine rifles that are capable of greater accuracy than I ever will lend to them.

Okay. Rifle #1 sports a 1 power EOTech sight and a compensator/muzzle brake. The EOTech's 1X aiming point is a one minute of angle red dot, surrounded by a red circle. If you have read this far, you already know this.

Rifle #2 sports a 4X Trijicon ACOG and a flash suppressor. The ACOG's reticle is an orange triangle, the aiming point is the top tip. In both cases I was shooting from a bench and offhand at 100 yards at standard 100 yard NRA targets. These are about 2 feet square, with about a 10" black bullseye graduated with rings. I wasn't counting scores, but initial sighting-in groups, and then offhand effectiveness.

Impressions: the Trijicon is the finest sight I've ever shot on a combat carbine, period. Bar none. Better by far than my EOTech, Aimpoints (4 minute of angle red dots) and various other optical and electronic sights I have used. Off a rest, the Trijicon was shooting a sub 2" group, and I suck at bench rest shooting. I cannot get my EOTech to shoot that well, even though it has a 1 MOA red dot, mainly because my "over 50" eyes are starting to slip, maybe. The best bench groups I could get with the EOTech were about 4". The 4X Trijicon brought that 10" bull in sharp and clear. The triangle top reticle is like a surgeon's scalpel. Sub 2" bench groups were easy. Yet it's also bright and fast and "intuitive."

Bench rest verdict: Trijicon wins, hands down.

Standing, offhand. To get a little realism into the comparison, I shot identical NRA targets offhand, "semi-rapid fire." A combat carbine is about shooting with speed while running around and trying not to get shot. Bench rest performance is just step one. Standing offhand with both rifles/sights, I could really kill that 10" bull at 100 yards. The 1 MOA EOTech is easily centered. Offhand, both rifles and scopes were far better than the shooter, me. But to be truthful, semi-rapid fire standing, and going through entire 30 round mags to simulate realistic fatigue, I found it much easier to stay "all in the black" with the Trijicon. That 4X triangle is just so damn good. And it has built-in stadia steps under the triangle for 400 and 600 yards. I'd hate to be a Taliban with ten Marines chasing me with M-16 A3 mounted with Trijicons!

Offhand accuracy at 100 yards: Trijicon wins again.

Second discussion: flash suppressor vs. muzzle brake. One area where I must give credit to my own M-4gery with the EOTech is due to its brake/compensator. Yes, the 5.56mm "mouse gun" does not have much recoil. Yes, your ten year old little sister can shoot it without crying. BUT, my muzzle brake/compensator makes a fast rifle even faster. The Trijicon with the flash suppressor was more accurate, but just a bit slower than the EOTech with the brake. The Trijicon/flash suppressor would jump off of the target just enough between semi-rapid fire shots to force you to "re-acquire" the bull on the triangle.

But my EOTech with the compensator (no holes on the bottom, for zero "muzzle flip" means that my 1moa EOTech red dot stays dead-tits on the center of the bull between shots. If the ranges allowed true rapid fire, I'm sure that's when the brake would really shine. (No 'one second per shot rule'.) With the brake you can just nail your target all the way through a magazine, with both eyes open, never ever losing your point of aim even for a nanosecond.

But with no magnification, the EOTech just could not maximize the accuracy the way the Trijicon did.

My recommendation for the deadliest combo? Put a Trijicon on top of your M-4gery, and a muzzle brake/compensator on the front. Then you will be able to attack targets like a damn sewing machine! Who needs full auto, when you can just DRILL a target at 100 yards as fast as you can shoot?

I wish I was still out west at a "free range" gravel pit where I could put this theory to the test. But our Eastern RSO's just don't like hearing 30 round mags go out in under 30 seconds.

Now, everybody enjoy. I'm going out to dinner with my wife.


TOPICS: Education; Miscellaneous; Outdoors
KEYWORDS: acog; banglist; emcha; eotech; m4; trijicon
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1 posted on 06/18/2010 5:25:32 PM PDT by Travis McGee
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To: Joe Brower; Eaker; Squantos; hiredhand; CodeToad; Lurker; DuncanWaring; archy; Jack Black

A few more thoughts: If I knew I’d only be using my rifle from point blank to 200 yards, I’d say my EOTech would be great. Maybe even quicker under 100 yards with no magnification.

But from 100 to 600 yards, the Trijicon would win hands-down, no comparison. Zero. None.

And up close, there are those who say that the Trijoon acts like an “occluded eye gunsight” while you are swinging onto the target with both eyes open. That is, the left eye sees the target, the right eye sees that BRIGHT orange triangle. As you put them together and steady on target, the right eye comes into focus, and there you are, on target. I have not had a chance to test this (no free range gravel pits nearby) but it sounds like it would work.

Both are damn fine sights, but the Trijicon ACOG is hands down better.

Put a brake/comp in front, and you would have a seriously deadly off-hand running-around-and-shooting killer carbine.


2 posted on 06/18/2010 5:31:27 PM PDT by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: Travis McGee

TTIUWP


3 posted on 06/18/2010 5:32:07 PM PDT by mnehring
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To: Eaker; afnamvet; AK2KX; Ancesthntr; An Old Man; ApesForEvolution; aragorn; archy; ArmedSkeptic; ...

Friday Night Gun Thread


4 posted on 06/18/2010 5:34:50 PM PDT by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: Travis McGee

The Trijicon Accupoint triangle reticle is great in hunting scopes too. I don’t buy cheap optics, but their hunting scopes will set you back about $800.


5 posted on 06/18/2010 5:38:42 PM PDT by umgud (Obama is a failed experiment.)
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To: Travis McGee

6 posted on 06/18/2010 5:40:21 PM PDT by umgud (Obama is a failed experiment.)
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To: Travis McGee

Self ping to lurk and learn....

Thanks for the ping!


7 posted on 06/18/2010 5:41:03 PM PDT by Las Vegas Ron ("Because without America, there is no free world" - Canada Free Press - MSM, where are you?)
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To: Travis McGee

By the way, the Mosin Nagant fired just fine.
I love it!


8 posted on 06/18/2010 5:41:49 PM PDT by humblegunner (Pablo is very wily)
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To: Travis McGee
I just received my TA31RCO-M4CP for my Daniel Defense M4v3 and can't wait to get out to the range to try it out!
9 posted on 06/18/2010 5:44:05 PM PDT by Pox
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To: Travis McGee

The Bindon concept does work with the Trijicon 4x32 for up close work, but if a person has a very strong dominant eye it can be a problem.

Lotsa practice solves it. It took a while for me to figure it out. But then , I have a hard head.


10 posted on 06/18/2010 5:49:54 PM PDT by ex 98C MI Dude (Alea Iacta Est)
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To: Travis McGee

I’m not sure the Tijicon has BDC built in to that reticle?

Am I wrong? EOT’s do.


11 posted on 06/18/2010 5:50:19 PM PDT by Pavegunner72
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To: Travis McGee
Thanks Travis. I've wanted someone to do a head to head between these two optical systems.

As you know I've got an Aimpoint. How much fun would it be to have all three platforms on the same range at the same time?

12 posted on 06/18/2010 5:55:34 PM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: Pavegunner72

No BDC if you mean an external dial/control of the reticle. It has a series of stadia steps under the triangle for 200, 400 and 600 yards.


13 posted on 06/18/2010 5:55:42 PM PDT by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: Travis McGee; humblegunner

Good review Matt.

Informative yet simple enough for humblegunner to understand parts of it!


14 posted on 06/18/2010 5:57:29 PM PDT by Eaker (Pablo is very wily)
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To: Lurker

It would be fun. But there’s just no way the EOTech or the Aimpoint would be in the game much past 100 yards. They just wouldn’t. Fast, yes. Fast and accurate? Not like the Trijicon.

I almost feel sorry for any Talibans caught in a firefight with ACOG-equipped American troops out in the open.

Put a comp on that ACOG scoped rifle and I don’t see how you could get it any better. The only down-side to the ACOG was its flash suppressor that allowed a bit of muzzle jump between shots. My EOTech/Comp combo just has zero recoil or jump. Zero. It’s right where it was between shots. Your eye never loses the aimpoint even for a blink.


15 posted on 06/18/2010 5:59:16 PM PDT by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: Lurker
How much fun would it be to have all three platforms on the same range at the same time?

Now you're talking!

16 posted on 06/18/2010 6:00:11 PM PDT by Eaker (Pablo is very wily)
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To: Eaker; humblegunner

A Nagant is also fine for long range shooting.

It also works well as a tent-stake hammer, canoe paddle and CQB club.


17 posted on 06/18/2010 6:00:59 PM PDT by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: Travis McGee

Bullet drop compensation. sounds like it has it. good deal.


18 posted on 06/18/2010 6:02:25 PM PDT by Pavegunner72
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To: ex 98C MI Dude

I don’t see why it wouldn’t work, for folks as you say who can use the Bindon concept.

But I would have been persona non grata at my visiting range if I’d started swinging my barrel around before shots.


19 posted on 06/18/2010 6:03:04 PM PDT by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: Travis McGee
OK now you're making me feel bad I didn't orginally acquire one of them. I think I've told you that when I bought my M4gery all that was available in a reasonable time frame was the Aimpoint.

At the time every one of them was spoken for by Uncle Sugar.

So now I'll put my nose to the grindstone and work until I can pay for one of them.

Thanks, pal.

L

20 posted on 06/18/2010 6:10:58 PM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: Las Vegas Ron; Travis McGee

“Self ping to lurk and learn....
Thanks for the ping!”
-
What he said...


21 posted on 06/18/2010 6:14:07 PM PDT by Repeal The 17th (If November does not turn out well, then beware of December.)
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To: Travis McGee

But the 5.56 sucks!!! Or not...

Wish I could try an ACOG. I figure the EOtech on my M4gery is a 200-250 yard low light gun. Folding irons add options. That will work around here, other options if I have to leave.

Thanks!


22 posted on 06/18/2010 6:16:33 PM PDT by MileHi ( "It's coming down to patriots vs the politicians." - ovrtaxt)
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To: Travis McGee

I’ve tried both and agree with your evaluation. I’ve been looking at the Leupold Mark 4 CQ/T. I’ve looked through them but never shot ‘em. They seem like they might be best of both worlds, tube red dot like the aimpoint and 3X magnification.


23 posted on 06/18/2010 6:17:19 PM PDT by Eagles6 ( Typical White Guy: Christian, Constitutionalist, Heterosexual, Redneck.)
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To: mylife

EOTech ping


24 posted on 06/18/2010 6:25:00 PM PDT by 50cal Smokepole (Effective gun control involves effective recoil management)
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To: Travis McGee

Uhhh...

You left out “spear”...bayonets remember? Also, I’ve used my mauser as a door stop and as a door brace(jammed against a closed door so no one can kick it open). It can also be used as an exercize dumbell and as a fire poke. Really good hands can twirl it like a baton in a marching band.


25 posted on 06/18/2010 6:36:24 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
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To: Travis McGee
You can have my Trijicon when you pry it from my cold dead hands. Great optic!

LLS

26 posted on 06/18/2010 6:41:00 PM PDT by LibLieSlayer ( WOLVERINES!)
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To: Travis McGee

I havn’t tried out my theory...but I think the ideal M4gery would be a carbon fiber jobby from bushmaster with an oil filled recoil spring/plunger gizmo. Add light weight to the low recoil concept!


27 posted on 06/18/2010 6:41:05 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
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To: Travis McGee
I concur with your assessment of the brake/comp. My Stag Arms AR-15 carbine does a fine job with one. I use a holo sight on mine, as it's intended for close in work. Very easy to stay on target. For long range shooting, I switch uppers and use a little more magnification.


28 posted on 06/18/2010 6:59:36 PM PDT by 50cal Smokepole (Effective gun control involves effective recoil management)
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To: Travis McGee

Yes, the range master takes a very dim view of people who don’t religiously follow range rules (up and down range).

But the desert is a very big place. So I had lots of places to screw up before figuring it out. Hope the illegals had fun dodging 5.56x45mm though. that thought gives me a warm and fuzzy.


29 posted on 06/18/2010 7:01:34 PM PDT by ex 98C MI Dude (Alea Iacta Est)
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To: Travis McGee; 300winmag

Told ya......:o)

The eotech shines in transition from bright sunlight to darkened room. Minute of torso is fine for the eotech when clearng structures yet my TA31D with the Docter on top is my favorite.....

Very fast for 3 gun.


30 posted on 06/18/2010 7:06:13 PM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet)
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To: Travis McGee

I consider the Aimpoint a maximum 200 sight for an M4. For longer range work, I have a sweet little accurized rifle with glass and shooting the 77gr SMK, the Mk262/0, it nails anything I can see.

I chose the Aimpoint for its brightness and toughness. I didn’t want magnified optics on an M4 as I consider that rifle a vehicle weapon used in urban combat for situations closer than 200 yards.


31 posted on 06/18/2010 7:09:10 PM PDT by CodeToad
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To: Lurker

Agree. My Comp M is a very good optic. It works perfect with ANPVS14. Dial it down an coyotes cry.

I want to try the 3 against each other.

We need to set a list of conditions to evaluate em shy of destruction or abuse as I can’t afford such.

I can borrow an EOtech from work or drop some coin on one. Whch one is the question.


32 posted on 06/18/2010 7:15:37 PM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet)
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To: Travis McGee
We need to get a EOTech with a flip-to-side 4x magnifier for you to try.

I have that rig on my SOCOM II with custom rails.

Come to think about it after one gets an EOTech and the 4x magnifier and the quick mounts, you have spent enough money to buy the Jesus Sight.

33 posted on 06/18/2010 7:24:18 PM PDT by The Theophilus
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To: Travis McGee; Eaker
It also works well as a tent-stake hammer, canoe paddle and CQB club.

I'm told that if you can get a prosthetic limb to chamber it'll fire that as well.

I like it.

34 posted on 06/18/2010 7:25:45 PM PDT by humblegunner (Pablo is very wily)
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To: humblegunner; Travis McGee
The Mosin really is cool.

Practically recoiless too.


35 posted on 06/18/2010 7:30:41 PM PDT by Eaker (Pablo is very wily)
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To: 50cal Smokepole

You should really change your dryer venting to rigid 4” pipe. Flexible dryer pipe tends to tear and accumulates lint faster than aluminum or galvanized pipe and in many municipalities it is a code violation.


36 posted on 06/18/2010 7:36:05 PM PDT by Sawdring
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To: Sawdring

Gee, thanks for the advice, ;)


37 posted on 06/18/2010 7:48:23 PM PDT by 50cal Smokepole (Effective gun control involves effective recoil management)
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To: Travis McGee

maybe next year...
38 posted on 06/18/2010 7:49:27 PM PDT by Chode (American Hedonist *DTOM* -ww- NO Pity for the LAZY)
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To: 50cal Smokepole

Oh, but the gun is very nice also!


39 posted on 06/18/2010 7:49:33 PM PDT by Sawdring
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To: Eaker
Practically recoiless too.

Right up till you fire it. ;-)

I've heard one can use the recoil to correct shoulders dislocated by previous shots!

40 posted on 06/18/2010 8:27:24 PM PDT by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: Still Thinking; Eaker
Patrick McManus worked that into one of his humor articles in either Outdoor Life or Field & Stream. Something about how as a kid, he had to borrow hunting rifles. One such example was something "...left over from the Indian wars..." which, when test fired, vaporized a fence post and moved Pat's nose to the unoccupied space above his left eyebrow. Where it would thereafter be safe.

McManus probably wrote that, knowing that a bunch of newbie hunters would appreciate the tale due to the real-life thumpings they received from Nagant "deer rifles".

41 posted on 06/18/2010 9:21:43 PM PDT by Charles Martel ("Endeavor to persevere...")
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To: Travis McGee
My recommendation for the deadliest combo? Put a Trijicon on top of your M-4gery, and a muzzle brake/compensator on the front. Then you will be able to attack targets like a damn sewing machine! Who needs full auto, when you can just DRILL a target at 100 yards as fast as you can shoot?

You can't go wrong with an EOtech, ACOG, or Aimpoint, which is what our troops are proving every day. It boils down to personal preferences, and individual situations. For the 5.56mm round, I also like the Leupold CQB.

I also tend to play "musical optics" until I find the combination of scope and weapon that seems best to me. Between the brands of optics mentioned, and M-faux, Sig 556, FN FS2000, and HK SL8, there are enough permutations to provide plenty of trigger time for evaluations. Differences in shape, eye relief, mounting options, etc. all come in to play.

The 4x Trijicon works well out to 600 yards. Beyond that, I'm more concerned with the terminal ballistics of the round, rather than the rifle/scope/shooter combo being able to deliver consistent hits. So I did some research, and elementary gunsmithing, and came up with a handy little piece to fill the gap between mouse gun and series rifle.

The only thing un-handy about it is that it still weighs 12 pounds empty. But M118 match ammo speaks with authority.

42 posted on 06/18/2010 9:25:18 PM PDT by 300winmag (Overkill never fails)
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To: Travis McGee
question... my M1-A/SOCOM-16 has a forward mounted scope rail and i've never shot anything with a scope mounted so far forward, do you have any experience with said set up and is so, what do you think if it???
43 posted on 06/18/2010 9:40:51 PM PDT by Chode (American Hedonist *DTOM* -ww- NO Pity for the LAZY)
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To: 300winmag
sweeeet... who makes the stock???
44 posted on 06/18/2010 9:45:59 PM PDT by Chode (American Hedonist *DTOM* -ww- NO Pity for the LAZY)
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To: Las Vegas Ron

One thing I learned, which I strongly resisted for years, it really is OK to buy a scope that costs more than my rifle:)


45 posted on 06/18/2010 10:16:28 PM PDT by Cold Heart
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To: Chode
question... my M1-A/SOCOM-16 has a forward mounted scope rail and i've never shot anything with a scope mounted so far forward, do you have any experience with said set up and is so, what do you think if it???

I had an Aimpoint CompM4 on that barrel-mounted rail because it's so far forward only a 1x optical device could provide enough eye relief. I can't think of any magnifying device that could provide over 12 inches of needed eye relief, so a 1x device with super-wide field of view is the only thing that will work.

When I wanted to get away from the Aimpoint (it will go back on something intended for more in-close work), I had to start thinking about a standard scope mount for the M1A/M14. There are lots of great, but expensive, M14-type scope mounts that bring the scope back to your eye, over the bolt. But that to me meant I couldn't have enough rail length to handle some sort of scope that I hadn't even picked out yet.

Troy Industries came to the rescue with their aluminum M14/M1A stock chassis. Miles of rails (more than I can ever use), including the top rail that goes from where the rear sight was, all the way to the front edge of the handguard.

The other bonus was that the Troy Industries chassis ends with the same type of threaded hole the M16/M4 lower receiver does. That means any form of M16 stock, or anything else that can thread in that hole, can be used for a stock. I just bought the bare chassis from Troy, and the parts for a folding stock from ACE Ltd. Since there are no mechanical devices to the rear of the trigger guard, the stock can be empty, and therefore foldable.

It ain't cheap, but the base M1A isn't either. The finished product is still something I would trust with my life without hesitation.

The scope is an Elcan 3x which I grabbed when on sale. With the ARMS "riser" I was able to have a super-low BUIS on the rear, a Docter red dot in front of the Elcan, and still have the Troy Industries folding front sight.

There's more to my ongoing M1A project, including some cosmetic goodies, but overall I'm quite happy on putting the M14 action into a 21st century setting.

46 posted on 06/18/2010 10:35:50 PM PDT by 300winmag (Overkill never fails)
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To: harpseal; TexasCowboy; nunya bidness; AAABEST; Travis McGee; Squantos; wku man; SLB; ...
Travis has been having fun, methinks. $:-)

Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!

47 posted on 06/19/2010 12:28:51 AM PDT by Joe Brower (Sheep have three speeds: "graze", "stampede" and "cower".)
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To: 300winmag
thx much...
48 posted on 06/19/2010 4:45:56 AM PDT by Chode (American Hedonist *DTOM* -ww- NO Pity for the LAZY)
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To: Eaker

;-)

TFF


49 posted on 06/19/2010 5:45:57 AM PDT by stevie_d_64 (I'm jus' sayin')
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To: Travis McGee

Man, I’ve been wanting to get an ACOG for years...just a bit too pricy for the wallet these days...

But I did manage to get myself an EOTech, and I do not believe that was a mistake either...So the combination of that optic and rifle have been exactly what I want for what I want it to be utilized for...

Anything outside of 200-250 meters is going to have to be dealt with by other means...

And yes, it is annoying to not be able to send 30 downrange in the fun and fast way...

And to tell you the truth, I am still an old “iron sight” afficianado myself...I’ll turn the EOTech off, and flip up “ole reliable”, and go to work...

BTW, good review, and undoubtably you had a good time!!! Thats what counts..


50 posted on 06/19/2010 5:56:15 AM PDT by stevie_d_64 (I'm jus' sayin')
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