Fastest M-4gery in the East (Friday Night Gun Thread)

Travis McGee | June 18, 2010 | Travis McGee

[Travis McGee]

Okay, this wasn't a bench-by-bench comparison. But I did shoot one rifle last week at my range, and the other rifle today at a guest range. Both ranges are in Florida, if you care, on opposite coasts.

Both rifles were comparable M-4gerys. Top end or close to to top end. (Not junk.) Similar stocks, barrels, etc. I'm not going to mention the makes, because it's not the point of my essay tonight. Trust me, both are fine, fine rifles that are capable of greater accuracy than I ever will lend to them.

Okay. Rifle #1 sports a 1 power EOTech sight and a compensator/muzzle brake. The EOTech's 1X aiming point is a one minute of angle red dot, surrounded by a red circle. If you have read this far, you already know this.

Rifle #2 sports a 4X Trijicon ACOG and a flash suppressor. The ACOG's reticle is an orange triangle, the aiming point is the top tip. In both cases I was shooting from a bench and offhand at 100 yards at standard 100 yard NRA targets. These are about 2 feet square, with about a 10" black bullseye graduated with rings. I wasn't counting scores, but initial sighting-in groups, and then offhand effectiveness.

Impressions: the Trijicon is the finest sight I've ever shot on a combat carbine, period. Bar none. Better by far than my EOTech, Aimpoints (4 minute of angle red dots) and various other optical and electronic sights I have used. Off a rest, the Trijicon was shooting a sub 2" group, and I suck at bench rest shooting. I cannot get my EOTech to shoot that well, even though it has a 1 MOA red dot, mainly because my "over 50" eyes are starting to slip, maybe. The best bench groups I could get with the EOTech were about 4". The 4X Trijicon brought that 10" bull in sharp and clear. The triangle top reticle is like a surgeon's scalpel. Sub 2" bench groups were easy. Yet it's also bright and fast and "intuitive."

Bench rest verdict: Trijicon wins, hands down.

Standing, offhand. To get a little realism into the comparison, I shot identical NRA targets offhand, "semi-rapid fire." A combat carbine is about shooting with speed while running around and trying not to get shot. Bench rest performance is just step one. Standing offhand with both rifles/sights, I could really kill that 10" bull at 100 yards. The 1 MOA EOTech is easily centered. Offhand, both rifles and scopes were far better than the shooter, me. But to be truthful, semi-rapid fire standing, and going through entire 30 round mags to simulate realistic fatigue, I found it much easier to stay "all in the black" with the Trijicon. That 4X triangle is just so damn good. And it has built-in stadia steps under the triangle for 400 and 600 yards. I'd hate to be a Taliban with ten Marines chasing me with M-16 A3 mounted with Trijicons!

Offhand accuracy at 100 yards: Trijicon wins again.

Second discussion: flash suppressor vs. muzzle brake. One area where I must give credit to my own M-4gery with the EOTech is due to its brake/compensator. Yes, the 5.56mm "mouse gun" does not have much recoil. Yes, your ten year old little sister can shoot it without crying. BUT, my muzzle brake/compensator makes a fast rifle even faster. The Trijicon with the flash suppressor was more accurate, but just a bit slower than the EOTech with the brake. The Trijicon/flash suppressor would jump off of the target just enough between semi-rapid fire shots to force you to "re-acquire" the bull on the triangle.

But my EOTech with the compensator (no holes on the bottom, for zero "muzzle flip" means that my 1moa EOTech red dot stays dead-tits on the center of the bull between shots. If the ranges allowed true rapid fire, I'm sure that's when the brake would really shine. (No 'one second per shot rule'.) With the brake you can just nail your target all the way through a magazine, with both eyes open, never ever losing your point of aim even for a nanosecond.

But with no magnification, the EOTech just could not maximize the accuracy the way the Trijicon did.

My recommendation for the deadliest combo? Put a Trijicon on top of your M-4gery, and a muzzle brake/compensator on the front. Then you will be able to attack targets like a damn sewing machine! Who needs full auto, when you can just DRILL a target at 100 yards as fast as you can shoot?

I wish I was still out west at a "free range" gravel pit where I could put this theory to the test. But our Eastern RSO's just don't like hearing 30 round mags go out in under 30 seconds.

Now, everybody enjoy. I'm going out to dinner with my wife.

[Charles Martel]

Patrick McManus worked that into one of his humor articles in either Outdoor Life or Field & Stream. Something about how as a kid, he had to borrow hunting rifles. One such example was something "...left over from the Indian wars..." which, when test fired, vaporized a fence post and moved Pat's nose to the unoccupied space above his left eyebrow. Where it would thereafter be safe.

McManus probably wrote that, knowing that a bunch of newbie hunters would appreciate the tale due to the real-life thumpings they received from Nagant "deer rifles".

[300winmag]

My recommendation for the deadliest combo? Put a Trijicon on top of your M-4gery, and a muzzle brake/compensator on the front. Then you will be able to attack targets like a damn sewing machine! Who needs full auto, when you can just DRILL a target at 100 yards as fast as you can shoot?

You can't go wrong with an EOtech, ACOG, or Aimpoint, which is what our troops are proving every day. It boils down to personal preferences, and individual situations. For the 5.56mm round, I also like the Leupold CQB.

I also tend to play "musical optics" until I find the combination of scope and weapon that seems best to me. Between the brands of optics mentioned, and M-faux, Sig 556, FN FS2000, and HK SL8, there are enough permutations to provide plenty of trigger time for evaluations. Differences in shape, eye relief, mounting options, etc. all come in to play.

The 4x Trijicon works well out to 600 yards. Beyond that, I'm more concerned with the terminal ballistics of the round, rather than the rifle/scope/shooter combo being able to deliver consistent hits. So I did some research, and elementary gunsmithing, and came up with a handy little piece to fill the gap between mouse gun and series rifle.

The only thing un-handy about it is that it still weighs 12 pounds empty. But M118 match ammo speaks with authority.

[Chode]

question... my M1-A/SOCOM-16 has a forward mounted scope rail and i've never shot anything with a scope mounted so far forward, do you have any experience with said set up and is so, what do you think if it???

[Chode]

sweeeet... who makes the stock???

[Cold Heart]

One thing I learned, which I strongly resisted for years, it really is OK to buy a scope that costs more than my rifle:)

[300winmag]

question... my M1-A/SOCOM-16 has a forward mounted scope rail and i've never shot anything with a scope mounted so far forward, do you have any experience with said set up and is so, what do you think if it???

I had an Aimpoint CompM4 on that barrel-mounted rail because it's so far forward only a 1x optical device could provide enough eye relief. I can't think of any magnifying device that could provide over 12 inches of needed eye relief, so a 1x device with super-wide field of view is the only thing that will work.

When I wanted to get away from the Aimpoint (it will go back on something intended for more in-close work), I had to start thinking about a standard scope mount for the M1A/M14. There are lots of great, but expensive, M14-type scope mounts that bring the scope back to your eye, over the bolt. But that to me meant I couldn't have enough rail length to handle some sort of scope that I hadn't even picked out yet.

Troy Industries came to the rescue with their aluminum M14/M1A stock chassis. Miles of rails (more than I can ever use), including the top rail that goes from where the rear sight was, all the way to the front edge of the handguard.

The other bonus was that the Troy Industries chassis ends with the same type of threaded hole the M16/M4 lower receiver does. That means any form of M16 stock, or anything else that can thread in that hole, can be used for a stock. I just bought the bare chassis from Troy, and the parts for a folding stock from ACE Ltd. Since there are no mechanical devices to the rear of the trigger guard, the stock can be empty, and therefore foldable.

It ain't cheap, but the base M1A isn't either. The finished product is still something I would trust with my life without hesitation.

The scope is an Elcan 3x which I grabbed when on sale. With the ARMS "riser" I was able to have a super-low BUIS on the rear, a Docter red dot in front of the Elcan, and still have the Troy Industries folding front sight.

There's more to my ongoing M1A project, including some cosmetic goodies, but overall I'm quite happy on putting the M14 action into a 21st century setting.

[Joe Brower]

Travis has been having fun, methinks. $:-)

[Chode]

thx much...

[stevie_d_64]

;-)

TFF

[stevie_d_64]

Man, I’ve been wanting to get an ACOG for years...just a bit too pricy for the wallet these days...

But I did manage to get myself an EOTech, and I do not believe that was a mistake either...So the combination of that optic and rifle have been exactly what I want for what I want it to be utilized for...

Anything outside of 200-250 meters is going to have to be dealt with by other means...

And yes, it is annoying to not be able to send 30 downrange in the fun and fast way...

And to tell you the truth, I am still an old “iron sight” afficianado myself...I’ll turn the EOTech off, and flip up “ole reliable”, and go to work...

BTW, good review, and undoubtably you had a good time!!! Thats what counts..

[Chode]

what is your model number??? i like the front hand grip but i can't seem to find that model on their site...

thx...

[bayouranger]

BUMP!

[Travis McGee]

It was a great day at the range, thanks!

[Travis McGee]

I have a BUIS behind my EOTech, but honestly, at least with my old and getting older eyes, I think that with the irons I’m at a serious handicap.

[wastedyears]

You call that just a little more magnification?

[50cal Smokepole]

Comes in handy when banging gongs at 300 meters. Not to mention coyotes.

[Noumenon]

Great review and commentary. Makes me re-think me long-held doctrine of iron sights only. The idea being, can I throw this rifle on hard ground, pick it back up and still have the same working sight picture?

That tends to eliminate most of the optics out there. So, in terms of durability and mounting systems, how do the Trijicon and Eotech products hold up? Given their service history, I’d have to think - pretty darned good.

[gundog]

Are you aware of the Mark 4 forgeries on the market?

[Lurker]

Makes me re-think me long-held doctrine of iron sights only.

I think of them as a 'bonus' system myself. I've got the Aimpoint and it works wonderfully. I did the 25 meter zero with it so I know where it should be at 50, 100, and 200 yards pretty much within a couple of inches. That's 'minute of bad guy' in my book.

The Aimpoint is pretty rugged but does require special batteries, which is a drawback IMO. Make sure you've got spares for whatever system you acquire.

I've banged my Aimpoint around pretty good and it seems to hold zero pretty darned well. IMO you'd be well served by any of them but as Travis has shown the ACOG is clearly the superior item if you can afford it. They are NOT inexpensive by any stretch of the imagination.

Of course one shouldn't become dependent on any Optical system as they can and do fail, become damaged, or just get the hell knocked out of their zero.

I've had my Aimpoint for about 4 years or so I guess and I have no complaints about the quality, functionality, or workmanship of it. It's top drawer. For the record I've got the ML2 model. It really gets my 50 year old eyes on target quickly.

You might want to think about a couple of the lower cost Bushnell red dots. I bought three of them a few years ago and IIRC they were $50 or so each. The logic was I can put them on Mrs. L's Mini-14 and another on the Mossberg and still have a spare when one of them fails.

They ain't Aimpoints or ACOGS, that's for sure but I file them under "BTN" (Better than nothing). LOL. For the price they're pretty much disposable, too.

L

[Jack Black]

Thanks! That’s news I can use. One of these days I’ll break down and buy a .223. My last rifle was a Remington .270 and I’m still enjoying the hell out of it.