Posted on 01/20/2012 10:57:39 AM PST by GregNH
oh, and let’s not forget the much vaunted here Ark case:
Justice Morrow
“But the supreme court has never squarely determined, either prior to or subsequent to the adoption of the fourteenth amendment in 1868, the political status of children born here of foreign parents. In the case of Minor v. Happersett, 21 Wall. 168, the court expressly declined to pass upon that question.”
Also indicating the passage was DICTUM.
But they DO explicitly reject the 14th amendment as defining "natural born citizen" and therefore the only remaining definition wins by default.
To restate, if you have a choice between this and that, and the court says it cannot be "this" then the only surviving definition is "that." They define it as "that" because they explicitly rejected "this." (the 14th amendment)
‘I respectfully disagree. It’s NOT losing GA that matters; it’s how the liberals are going to explain that 0b0z0 couldn’t “prove his eligibility” in court!
This will embolden the cowards of all stripes to ask “WHY COULDN’T HE PROVE IT?????”’
Fwiw, Mel, I bring you a report from the embarrassingly, infantilely infatuated Obamaphiles at befogged. They are perfervidly speculating that it would actually be to Obama’s advantage to be stricken from the GA ballot. They appear to labor under the belief that the order will read: ‘Obama ineligible due to mixed racial ancestry’. Iow, to them it’s all about race, as usual. They are obsessed w skin color. If they were conservatives, that would make them r-a-c-i-s-t-s. Since the are ‘progressives’, it just means they are ‘better-than-everybody-else’. (Just ask them.)
We can only hope Obama & co. are as deluded as the foggers. Given Obama’s pathological self-infatuation, there’s a chance they could be. Consider these two bizarre delusions on which O and the befogged agree: (1) Obama is the hardest working president ever, and (2) Obama has a powerful charisma which enables him to overwhelm even women who despise everything he stands for. [They fantasize that if O bats his eyes at Orly she will fold weak-kneed to the courtroom floor. Projection of this strength is technically called “industrial”. (Infatuation of this degree is technically called “insane”. These people have no idea how creepy their Obama-crush looks to 99.9 percent of us. They probably imagine he performs brain surgery in his spare time...if you get my drift.)]
Obama too believes he is a singularly hard working POTUS, and that his charm is universal and irresistible. This makes Obama, his WH fanny smoochers and the foggers the only three people/groups in the world besotted/benighted to such a degree. [Even the DUers have awakened from their O-worship, such that it keeps Skinner hopping 24/7 to keep a lid on their anti-Obama sentiments. Move over DU; the competition for the moonbattiest site on the Web just got A LOT stiffer.] Perhaps the fog of such powerful delusions will lead to a titanic miscalculation, and O will simply opt off the GA ballot. Again, we can only hope.
All this proves something I started noticing ~four years ago. I.e.: if a liberal falls emotionally prey to the calculated charms of a non-white sociopath, they can only perceive two types of people: (1) those equally smitten w the sociopath, and (2) racists. That is the foundation of a mental disorder in and of itself. It’s certainly as detached from reality as a person walking around believing he’s a poached egg, anyway. Hmm. Something to think about.
Take heart, Mel et al. With the most feared site on the Web [another of their bizarre delusions] too blinded by an epic Obama-crush to think straight, mistakes are bound to be made. The next several mos will be very interesting indeed.
So, let’s say no one shows up with documents the judge ordered and the judge decides to keep Obama off the ballot.
Wouldn’t they just judge shop and have a higher judge reverse the decision?
——————————————————————————————On what grounds could they reverse? If O can't produce the necessary documents in the first place, what would be the legality of reversing. Another question...If O is found ineligible in GA, what state can justify putting O on their ballot? If he's ineligible...he's ineligible. Hillary is waiting for that “3am phone call”.
Let's say Stanley Ann was legally married to BNO Sr. but had an affair with Frank Marshall Davis and put Davis on the BC. Would Barry be an NBC?
IMO, no because the legality of the marriage governs the legal paternity of the child of the marriage for citizenship in the US and UK. Barry would be a dual citizen US and UK subject even though his biological father and the father on the BC was US citizen Frank Marshall Davis!
In the Minor case the Court only distinguished between NBC’s and children of aliens. then the Court said maybe some of the children of aliens might be citizens, though clearly were NOT NBC, IMO.
But SCOTUS in Minor was talking exclusively of NBCs and alien children established by legal marriage to an alien father, IMO. SCOTUS in Minor was NOT explicitly considering as aliens the children of unmarried US citizen mothers, nor foundlings who might be children of aliens.
"Born in the country to parents who are citizens" COULD be ruled by this SCOTUS to include children of single US citizen mothers despite the plural "citizens," IMO, because such children are clearly not legally the children of aliens or foreigners and have US citizenship but both blood and soil. We just won't know until there is a ruling.
Correct Bluecat.
W@e know that his mother removed him from her passport because he was an Indonesian citizen. So the state department probably had some document with this data.
He needs to exit Indonesia, but he legally can’t.
Either the family comes up with the idea to affirm his kenyan citizenship or a lawyer insists it must be done to get him back to the USA. So they call Obama Sr. and he gets the boy a Kenyan passport and possibly a court order from a Kenyan court. He wants his Kenyan boy out of Indonesia, and legally demands it.
*************************************************************************
I have read the Indonesian law on this. A woman married to a Indonesian citizen and her children became citizens of Indonesia under their law. Since the DAD and Lolo were married for 2 years prior to going to Indonesia they probably go everything taken care of before leaving to ensure the family would be properly papered in Indonesia. And thus the US probably recognized the entire Soetoro clan as Indonesian citizens in 1967 before they left.
Now in 1971 things are getting real unstable in Indonesia and its time get Obama II out of there for his own safety. But he is an Indonesian Citizen and his mother is still considered an Indonesian Citizen by Indonesia law AND she is planning on staying in Indonesia for now. So though Indonesia would not recognize her US citizenship she could invoke after being stateside - but her and Lolo had to get Obama declared as an indonesian citizen in 1967 or earlier.
Now, there is always the claim that a child’s parents can not forsake their child’s US citizenship. THAT IS WRONG.
A parent can do such a thing. HOWEVER, a child can reclaim their citizenship if they have not done anything that would nullify their citizenship in the US.
The Nationality Act of 1940, revised 1952, Section 318(a) “A former citizen of the United States expatriated through the expatriation of such person’s parent or parents and who has not acquired the nationality of another country by any affirmative act other than the expatriation of his parent or parents may be naturalized upon filing a petition for naturalization before reaching age of twenty-five years and upon compliance with all requirements of the naturalization laws with the following exceptions:
(b) No former citizen of the United States, expatriated through the expatriation of such person’s parent or parents shall be obliged to comply with the requirements of the immigration laws, if he has not not acquired the nationality of another country by any affirmative act other than the expatriation of his parent or parents, and if he has come or shall come to the United States before reaching the age of twenty-five years.
(c) After his naturalization such person shall have the same citizenship status as if he had not been expatriated.”
So in reality a parent CAN renounce their child’s citizenship, HOWEVER, the child can get it back - AFTER naturalization - resulting the ‘same citizenship status’.
Notice that (c) creates a problem for those who say only two status - natural born and naturalized. (c) certainly shows that there are multiple types of citizen status.
So to clean up the recognized and valid and legal adoption of Obama by Soetoro Obama Senior is needed. Indonesia will nullify the adoption and citizenship of an adopted child whose natural father claims him. And that is what was likely done. And at that point Obama is Kenyan, 100% Kenyan, not Indonesian, not American - Kenyan citizenship. It must be this way to completely and cleanly nullify Indonesia’s claim on Obama II.
Now the question is - how does a child who is considered a Kenyan citizen legally immigrate to the US? Probably through a refugee sponsorship. Obama Senior does not want the kid and just wants to dump him after he is used to spring him from Indonesia. So the child is registered as a refugee with a Catholic organization - based in.....CONNECTICUT! Gran and Granddad are the sponsors. But the process takes time. So when he needs a SS Card - he gets through the refugee function based in Connecticut. This ties into some posters (I am sorry forget right now who that is) that indicates the SS number came from a refugee function in Connecticut.
Then he finds out he can get a good scholarship as a foreign refugee. It has been documented by the LA Times that he was at Oxy “on a full scholarship.” So he leverages that for Oxy. This ties into Huckabee’s comments about attending college as a foreign student.
But now he has problems when he decides or needs to stay in the US and be recognized as a US citizen.
From above:
“...if he has not not acquired the nationality of another country by any affirmative act other than the expatriation of his parent or parents, and if he has come or shall come to the United States before reaching the age of twenty-five years.”
He did acquire his Kenyan nationality through an action other than expatriation of his parent or parents. So it is probably problematic. And he has probably leveraged his ‘foreignness’ to get a scholarship to a US University after the age of 18 - essentially declaring he is not a US Citizen.
Maybe he later fully naturalized - properly and legally - maybe he did not. The records show that......oh, yeah - no records....
‘natural born Citizen’????
If half of this scenario is correct this is a case study of international citizenship laws, allegiances, identities and naturalization requirements. Not a very clean situation to meet the simple criteria of being a ‘natural born Citizen’.
So in summary:
1961 - Born in - who cares. I go with Washington, Canada or Hawaii. Citizenship - US.
1964 - Divorce and Obama Senior INS filing acknowledge birth child of Obama II. Establishing him as a UK Overseas Citizen - from birth.
1965 - Mother marries Lolo Soetoro.
1967 - Family moves to Indonesia. Between 1965 and 1967 Obama is considered Lolo Soetoro’s child by Indonesia AND the US. Citizenship - Indonesian (only)
1971 - Obama Senior legally claimes Obama II. Thus, Indonesia recognizes birth father claim and terminates Obama II’s Indonesian citizenship. Citizenship - Kenyan (note: NOT UK at this point).
After 1971 - US Citizenship gained through naturalization (????) If so when, where, how?
Multiple skull fractures , etc.. Stomped, beaten, kicked for being white.
They don't need BO to be disqualified to kill. They are doing it now anyway. They already have excuses. A white person can not walk alone in Philadelphia. Period. A young white male was was literally beat to death in front of independence hall just a week ago. Beat to death, last weekend. The perps escaped. The only clue is they are dark skinned. If you want to go to Philly to see where the founders created this country, see the liberty bell, or just have a beer, you are literally risking your life. The racial beat downs in Philly have been getting worse and more frequent since we elected a Kenyan citizen. This past summer, a white guy riding a bicycle was punched in the face so hard, it fractured his skull. This was in broad daylight, black yoots, just having fun. A white girl was beat bloody in front of city hall, by two lovely black girls last summer ... just for sport, just for being a white woman. Tell these people that we fear riots.
“...I think there is a STRONG possibility that all he has on file is an affidavit of birth which was written and signed by his Grandmother. If this is the case, it will not be perceived as strong proof that he was actually born in this country. It will in fact, inflame his critics and arouse suspicion from the entire electorate.
...”
Bingo! We have a winner !
And he has played fast and lose with where his actual citizenship lies whenever it was to his advantage.
Played foreign student when that was to his advantage then US citizen when that was to his advantage.
That ruling is 99% Dictum. And nauseating dictum at that. That judge could should apply to a job at CRS.
Here is the point I have made from the very beginning and still maintain today.
It is NOT settled law. No one knows how Scotus would rule- and some even argue that SCOTUS has no authority to make the decision.
All you really have to do is listen to the oral arguments Nguyen case to see that it is up in the air.
NO ONE KNOWS THE DEFINITION.
It could very well be two US citizens born on US soil. Ginsberg doesn’t not hold with that theory - at least it seems she didn’t in the oral argument.
Personally, I don’t think a court would rule that way today but that is a personal opinion.
Those that go around claiming that this is set in stone are wrong.
There is a very interesting exchange about the Word Naturalized in the oral argument. . Does the term Naturalized encompass natural born citizens. Rogers V Bellei suggest that it does according to the lawyer.
http://www.oyez.org/cases/2000-2009/2000/2000_99_2071
“As for Minor, it did not rule on ANYTHING other than what was relevant to that case...and it clearly stated there was no question that a person born here of two parents is an NBC - as to any other definitions IT REFUSED TO DISCUSS BECAUSE IT WAS NOT RELEVANT.”
IMO, the Minor Court did not “reach” the question of whether the child of a legally single mom was NBC because Mrs. Minor was the legal child of two US citizens and was not the child of legally alien or foreign parents. Nor did the Minor court “reach” the NBC status of foundlings who were not presumed to be the child of aliens or foreigners, IIRC, but presumed to be citizens.
... upon the denial of Mr. Obama’s Motion to Quash the subpoena.
Thanks. I just sent back.
There are two pieces of evidence not yet entered into the public realm. Page 11 of the divorce decree and a BC from where ever he entered this world.
I like the idea that it was reversing the adoption by Soetoro or establishing legal paternity in the first place, but until HI comes clean we are in the dark. That place is a Demo cesspool and fortress despite occasional RINO governors.
Even if they had given an explicit definition of NBC as the ONE AND ONLY definition - it still would have not been relevant to the case and could have been stripped away as dictum.
If Santorum’s father became a US citizen before Rick was born, then Rick qualifies as NBC. Assuming his mother was also a citizen before his birth.
Your reasoning is a contortion of that case.
That said, legal arguments are based on trying to contort things to fit an argument.
It might succeed. It might not.
But your contortion doesn’t make it law at this point. It’s only an argument that might or might not succeed. Great chance that it would be a failure.
I saw in a thread, around 2008 -2009, there was a document from California. I think it listed a count of all foreign citizens, by country, of citizens going to school in California colleges in 1980. As I remember it, It had at least one Indonesian. I can’t remember if it had Kenyan.
But it seems clear he was representing himself as kenyan. Too many news articles Identify him as a Kenyan citizen. It worked for him. It made him exotic, rare, special. The goofball Islamic name wasn't enough. I'm sure he had a Kenyan passport.
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