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Would a Vote for a Member of a Cult to be President help Legitimise their Cult?
Amerisrael ^

Posted on 01/21/2012 7:44:29 AM PST by Amerisrael

That's probably a better question to ask than the one posed by George Handlery over at the Brussels Journal:

"Would a Mormon President Subvert American Democracy?"

Handlery writes the following:

["What follows below is not a Romney-fan’s propaganda. Actually, my favorite used to be another aspirant. The LDS affiliation of Mitt Romney exposes us again to the temptation to make religion into a criterion for picking a candidate."

"Now then, the theological validity of Mormonism’s version of Christianity is beyond my competence and my interest. To many, the implications of a President embracing that creed are of concern."

"However, American public life and her high-level politics have created indicators that Mormons will not kidnap America and replace its system with their theocracy."]

"...Mormons will not kidnap America and replace its system with their theocracy."]

Most likely not.

But is that why many would be concerned over voting for Romney?

Aside from Romney's Mormonism many question whether he is a valid conservative.

But back to the Mormonism.

It is most likely not out of a concern that America's democracy would be subverted , but perhaps instead, indirectly helping to legitimise a cult religion that is the cruxt of concern for many. 

Handlery concludes his article with this:

["...What matters to me now that a Mormon has become a candidate for the Presidency is that, the faith not only teaches values, its adherents live by them."

"Good Mormons work hard, try to measure up to constructive norms, and are reliable. That amounts to a strategy that results in worldly achievement."

"Even so, being a Mormon is a bad rationale to elect someone. However, LDS membership does not amount to a reasonable or a fair reason to deny such person one's vote...."]

"However, LDS membership does not amount to a reasonable or a fair reason to deny such person one's vote...."

Perhaps the reason why Handlery adapts that view is because of what else he wrote:

["Now then, the theological validity of Mormonism’s version of Christianity is beyond my competence and my interest."]

That's the problem Driscol puts a spotlight on:

In his blog article "Is Mormonism a cult?", Mark Driscol noted the following:

["... but in that it, Mormonism] claims Christianity while subtly subverting it in both practice and theology."

"Because it claims to be Christian, uses Christian language, but is antithetical Christianity, it must be labeled a cult theologically. "

"Of course, the trouble is that most people are not Christians, do not understand the differences between Mormon and Christian doctrine, and are therefore confused or upset to hear Mormonism labelled a cult, as it simply sounds cruel."

"What makes matters even worse is when presumably orthodox Christian leaders add to the confusion by essentially declaring Mormonism as a new form of Christianity."

"While it is understandable that the average non-Christian, and many Christians, don’t understand the ways in which Mormonism uses Christian terms while importing them into non-Christian meaning, it’s incumbent for Christian leaders to act like shepherds and warn the sheep about the wolves."

["... but in that it, Mormonism] claims Christianity while subtly subverting it in both practice and theology."]

Most Christians that are informed and studied about Mormonism, probably don't think Mormons are out to subvert American democracy. But rather Christianity. 

To that end, would the election of a Mormon to be President help to legitimise the Mormon cult?


TOPICS: Government; Miscellaneous; Politics; Religion
KEYWORDS: cults; mormonism; romney; romneybotzot; vote
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To: mc5cents
Mormonism was founded by a man, Joseph Smith who claimed to have had visions.

Islam was founded by a man, Mohammad who claimed to have had visions.

 

“I Will Be a Second Mohammed”

In the heat of the Missouri “Mormon War” of 1838, Joseph Smith made the following claim, “I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us—‘Joseph Smith or the Sword!’ ”[1]

It is most interesting that a self-proclaimed Christian prophet would liken himself to Mohammed, the founder of Islam. His own comparison invites us to take a closer look as well. And when we do, we find some striking—and troubling—parallels. Consider the following.

  • Mohammed and Joseph Smith both had humble beginnings. Neither had formal religious connections or upbringing, and both were relatively uneducated. Both founded new religions by creating their own scriptures. In fact, followers of both prophets claim these scriptures are miracles since their authors were the most simple and uneducated of men.[2]

  • Both prophets claim of having angel visitations, and of receiving divine revelation to restore pure religion to the earth again. Mohammed was told that both Jews and Christians had long since corrupted their scriptures and religion. In like manner, Joseph Smith was told that all of Christianity had become corrupt, and that consequently the Bible itself was no longer reliable. In both cases, this corruption required a complete restoration of both scripture and religion. Nothing which preceded either prophet could be relied upon any longer. Both prophets claim they were used of God to restore eternal truths which once existed on earth, but had been lost due to human corruption.

  • Both prophets created new scripture which borrowed heavily from the Bible, but with a substantially new “spin.” In his Koran, Mohammed appropriates a number of Biblical themes and characters—but he changes the complete sense of many passages, claiming to “correct” the Bible. In so doing he changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place. In like manner, Joseph Smith created the Book of Mormon, much of which is plagiarized directly from the King James Bible. Interestingly, the Book of Mormon claims that this same Bible has been substantially corrupted and is therefore unreliable. In addition, Joseph Smith went so far as to actually create his own version of the Bible itself, the “Inspired Version,” in which he both adds and deletes significant portions of text, claiming he is “correcting” it. In so doing he also changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place.

  • As a part of their new scriptural “spin,” both prophets saw themselves as prophesied in scripture, and both saw themselves as a continuation of a long line of Biblical prophets. Mohammed saw himself as a continuation of the ministry of Moses and Jesus. Joseph Smith saw himself as a successor to Enoch, Melchizedek, Joseph and Moses. Joseph Smith actually wrote himself into his own version of the Bible—by name.

  • Both prophets held up their own scripture as superior to the Bible. Mohammed claimed that the Koran was a perfect copy of the original which was in heaven. The Koran is therefore held to be absolutely perfect, far superior to the Bible and superceding it. In like manner, Joseph Smith also made the following claim. “I told the Brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding its precepts, than by any other book.”[3]

  • Despite their claim that the Bible was corrupt, both prophets admonished their followers to adhere to its teachings. An obvious contradiction, this led to selective acceptance of some portions and wholesale rejection of others. As a result, the Bible is accepted by both groups of followers only to the extent that it agrees with their prophet’s own superior revelation.

  • Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith taught that true salvation was to be found only in their respective religions. Those who would not accept their message were considered “infidels,” pagans or Gentiles. In so doing, both prophets became the enemy of genuine Christianity, and have led many people away from the Christ of the Bible.

  • Both prophets encountered fierce opposition to their new religions and had to flee from town to town because of threats on their lives. Both retaliated to this opposition by forming their own militias. Both ultimately set up their own towns as model societies.

  • Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith left unclear instructions about their successors. The majority of Mohammed’s followers, Sunni Muslims, believe they were to elect their new leader, whereas the minority, Shiite Muslims, believe Mohammed’s son was to be their next leader. Similarly, the majority of Joseph Smith's followers, Mormons, believed their next prophet should have been the existing leader of their quorum of twelve apostles, whereas the minority, RLDS, believed Joseph Smith's own son should have been their next prophet. Differences on this issue, and many others, have created substantial tension between these rival groups of each prophet.

  • Mohammed taught that Jesus was just another of a long line of human prophets, of which he was the last. He taught that he was superior to Christ and superceded Him. In comparison, Joseph Smith also made the following claim.

“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”[4] In light of these parallels, perhaps Joseph Smith's claim to be a second Mohammed unwittingly became his most genuine prophecy of all.


[1] Joseph Smith made this statement at the conclusion of a speech in the public square at Far West, Missouri on October 14, 1838. This particular quote is documented in Fawn M. Brodie, No Man Knows My History, second edition, (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1971), p. 230–231. Fawn Brodie’s footnote regarding this speech contains valuable information, and follows. “Except where noted, all the details of this chapter [16] are taken from the History of the [Mormon] Church. This speech, however, was not recorded there, and the report given here is based upon the accounts of seven men. See the affidavits of T.B. Marsh, Orson Hyde, George M. Hinkle, John Corrill, W.W. Phelps, Samson Avard, and Reed Peck in Correspondence, Orders, etc., pp. 57–9, 97–129. The Marsh and Hyde account, which was made on October 24, is particularly important. Part of it was reproduced in History of the [Mormon] Church, Vol. III, p. 167. See also the Peck manuscript, p. 80. Joseph himself barely mentioned the speech in his history; see Vol. III, p. 162.”

[2] John Ankerberg & John Weldon, The Facts on Islam, (Eugene, OR: Harvest House Publishers, 1998), pp.8–9. Eric Johnson, Joseph Smith & Muhammed, (El Cajon, CA: Mormonism Research Ministry, 1998), pp. 6–7.

[3] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.4, pp.461.

[4] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.6, pp.408–409.




81 posted on 01/22/2012 1:05:09 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: magritte

Ah, Maggie...

My favorite non-MORMON.


82 posted on 01/22/2012 1:07:02 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: raybbr
Attacking a candidate because of his religion wouldn’t look so great to Christians if their candidate was attacked simply for being a Christian.

Yup!

That attacking thing can get out of hand and cause pushback; or so I've heard...



Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
 
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses
, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).
 
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).
 
 
 
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
 
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
 
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
 
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

83 posted on 01/22/2012 1:09:39 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: raybbr
How can one ever claim his soul is secure. You know that you will never sin again?

By the AUDACITY of reading (and believeing) the BIBLE?


1 John Chapter 2

84 posted on 01/22/2012 1:14:39 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: raybbr
I posted to another who claimed his soul was "secure". I can't imagine how a person could claim that.

No need to imagine; just READ:

John 10:28

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


85 posted on 01/22/2012 1:17:16 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: greyfoxx39

I had to go back upthread and check out what I wrote that was so brilliant...

LOL


86 posted on 01/22/2012 1:22:55 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: magritte
Anonymous forums are always full of liars.


87 posted on 01/22/2012 1:26:12 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Bot
Mormons have a better understanding of Christianity than any other denomination, according to a 2010 Pew Forum poll:

HMMMmmm... a poll.

A supposedly random selection of people giving their OPINION on a matter.


I guess having a bunch of folks with the same OPINION is supposed to VALIDATE the thing opined about.

Try again.


Oh yeah - yer link don't work, either.

88 posted on 01/22/2012 1:30:45 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Jim Robinson

At this rate I’m going to have to shoot fish that are OUTSIDE the barrel!


89 posted on 01/22/2012 1:31:51 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: ejonesie22; magritte
Very odd that...

Not really; as M's religion is so, so... LIMITED.

Just barely a few steps above being an atheist.

90 posted on 01/22/2012 1:34:24 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: svcw
You claim to be a Christian and yet have no assurance of Salvation.

Oh?

I missed it!

91 posted on 01/22/2012 1:37:38 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: magritte
The Religion Forum is fascinating: chockful of liars, bigots, saints, the lost, the angry, the searchers, the self-righteous.

In which of these categories do you self identify?

92 posted on 01/22/2012 1:39:08 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: magritte

Hell!

Young people have distain for EVERYTHING!


93 posted on 01/22/2012 1:40:24 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: magritte
So; M; does such a thing as SIN exist in a Noahide world?


94 posted on 01/22/2012 1:42:31 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie
Just for you RF types...


95 posted on 01/22/2012 1:43:45 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: CodeToad
For a Mormon to say they have a faith and that faith does not conflict in practice with my faith, then I have no problem.

Problem is; it 'conflicts' in THEORY!


 
 
 
Romans 15:4
 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
 
 
Romans 16:17
   I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.
 
 
1 Corinthians 4:17
   For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.
 
 
1 Corinthians 11:2
 2.  I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings,  just as I passed them on to you.
 
 
Ephesians 4:14-15
 14.  Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
 15.  Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.
 
 
2 Thessalonians 2:15
   So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings  we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
 
 
2 Thessalonians 3:6
  In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching  you received from us.
 
 
1 Timothy 1:3-4
 3.  As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer
 4.  nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work--which is by faith.
 
 
1 Timothy 1:7
  They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.
 
 
1 Timothy 2:7
   And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle--I am telling the truth, I am not lying--and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.
 
 
1 Timothy 4:1-2
 1.  The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
 2.  Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
 
 
1 Timothy 4:6
   If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.
 
 
1 Timothy 4:11
  Command and teach these things.
 
 
1 Timothy 6:3-5
 3.  If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching,
 4.  he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 
 5.  and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
 
 
2 Timothy 1:13
  What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.
 
 
 2 Timothy 2:15-17
 15.  Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
 16.  Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.
 17.  Their teaching will spread like gangrene.
 
 
2 Timothy 3:16-17
 16.  All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
 17.  so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 
 
 2 Timothy 4:3-4
  3.  For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
  4.  They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
 
 
Titus 1:11
   They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach--and that for the sake of dishonest gain.
 
 
Titus 2:1
  You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine.
 
 
Titus 2:15
  These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.
 
 
 Hebrews 13:9
 Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings.
 
 
 2 Peter 2:1-3
 1.  But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
 2.  Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
 3.  In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
 
 
2 John 1:10
  If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him.



96 posted on 01/22/2012 1:46:15 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie; raybbr

Post #25


97 posted on 01/22/2012 1:46:42 PM PST by svcw (For the new year: you better toughen up, if you are going to continue to be stupid.)
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To: Jim Robinson

And miss all the cool commercials? ;^)


98 posted on 01/22/2012 1:47:37 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Bot
Mormons have a better understanding of Christianity than any other denomination, according to a 2010 Pew Forum poll:

Of COURSE they do!

Just looky HERE!!


 
 
Professor Robert Millet        teaching at the Mission Prep Club in 2004  http://newsnet.byu.edu/video/18773/  <-- Complete and uneditted

 
 
Timeline...    Subject...
 
0:59           "Anti-Mormons..."
1:16           "ATTACK the faith you have..."
2:02           "We really aren't obligated to answer everyone's questions..."
3:57           "You already know MORE about God and Christ and the plan of salvation than any who would ATTACK you."


99 posted on 01/22/2012 1:48:52 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: svcw

MY mistake.

I thought your reply was to BOT.


100 posted on 01/22/2012 1:52:46 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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