Posted on 03/28/2012 8:52:15 AM PDT by kathsua
There were many sins in Sodom, but there can be no doubt that sexual perversion was a big part:
Jude 1:7
“just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.”
2Peter 2:7-8
“and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds)”
Oh please Republican give more to charity than anyone else it is the forced taking of things we are against.
Sleight of hand. Government wants to raise taxes because it wants to increase the reach of government. Repubs oppose the increase of taxes because they seek to limit the reach of government. Since explaining the whole notion of classic liberalism and limited government is complicated, the whole argument winds up being about tax cuts.
I’ve often made the comment myself that Repubs have to make the whole limited-government argument, they have to make the whole classic liberal case again and again, they can’t rely on some kind of short-hand argument about tax cuts, because half the people in America don’t pay income tax anyway, and aren’t going to get it.
Dems want to extend the reach of government into every aspect of your life, and keep jacking tax rates to pay for it even though raising taxes (and micromanaging the economy) suffocates the economy and pushes people out of work thus creating more poor people as you well should know.
If we push back on taxes, they say, what, you don’t like poor people? Or they’ll add program after program and if you push back on taxes they’ll threaten to lay off police and teachers. What, you don’t like teachers? No, we want to roll back the other programs that have extended the reach of government where it doesn’t belong.
Sleight of hand. You oppose running a $4 trillion dollar budget with $2 trillion in income. What, you don’t like poor people? What, are you a radical libertarian who doesn’t pay his taxes? We oppose looting social security and Dems accuse us of hating old people. Its a con game.
Pro 29:14 The king that faithfully judgeth the poor, his throne shall be established for ever.
Dan 4:27 Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor; if it may be a lengthening of thy tranquillity.
Jer 22:15 Shalt thou reign, because thou closest [thyself] in cedar? did not thy father eat and drink, and do judgment and justice, [and] then [it was] well with him?Jer 22:16 He judged the cause of the poor and needy; then [it was] well [with him: was] not this to know me? saith the LORD.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil. Rom 13:5 Wherefore [ye] must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. Rom 13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute [is due]; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
While rulers can be evil and such rulers have to be dealt with. Generally scripture clear supports rulers and tells us to pay tributes and dues. It does not say that such taxes are theft.
When such taxes are duly voted upon by the elected representatives of "We the People", how do people accuse those whom scripture calls God's ministers of theft?
Pro 29:14 The king that faithfully judgeth the poor, his throne shall be established for ever.
Dan 4:27 Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor; if it may be a lengthening of thy tranquillity.
Jer 22:15 Shalt thou reign, because thou closest [thyself] in cedar? did not thy father eat and drink, and do judgment and justice, [and] then [it was] well with him?Jer 22:16 He judged the cause of the poor and needy; then [it was] well [with him: was] not this to know me? saith the LORD.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil. Rom 13:5 Wherefore [ye] must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. Rom 13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute [is due]; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
While rulers can be evil and such rulers have to be dealt with. Generally scripture clear supports rulers and tells us to pay tributes and dues. It does not say that such taxes are theft.
When such taxes are duly voted upon by the elected representatives of "We the People", how do people accuse those whom scripture calls God's ministers of theft?
I agree with you that there is a constant battle for balance, with the left trying to use the poor to overextend government, and the right trying to restore balance.
But there is some in the GOP, which I believe the article was addressing which claim that government has no business helping the poor. The scriptures in the article and the scriptures I posted indicate that is indeed a proper governmental role. It does not negate the mandate for individuals to help the poor. The mandate to government is in addition to the individual mandate and the church mandate.
Christian Republicans need to recognize that abortion and sexual morality aren't the only moral issues in politics. Mistreatment of the poor and how the rich acquire wealth are at least as important. Christians need to move away from the greedy Republicans who believe the rich should escape the taxes needed to fund government.
Unlike the author of those words, Christian Republicans can separate out the role that we might expect from society as a whole, in all its elements, and the role of government.
The politicized benevolence of government is not Christian charity, and its not even about giving. Its about taking; that is taking from your neighbors what you think they don't deserve to fund the benevolence that is of your choosing.
Being a democracy does not take away the fact that it - government benevolence - is a taking. It's still 51 out of 100 telling the other 49 what will be done whether they like it or not. Nothing Christian or charitable about that.
Luke and other gospels carry a statement by Jesus about the problem facing the rich. " Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God." Luke 18:24-5
The moral lesson in those verses is not that the problem is the fact that the rich man is rich, or even that he should not have become so rich. The moral lesson is that the wealth of the rich man can be a moral hazard for the rich man. He can buy immunity from the law from corrupt officials. He can try to buy love. He can betray love, using his wealth escaping into depravity. He can act, throug his wealth, in dozens of ways where with his wealth he may behave as if he is "getting away" with things that morally even he knows are wrong; things a man of low means would not even think of attempting. The moral lesson about the rich man is that his riches can tempt him in ways that only riches can. The rich man has more temptations put in front of him. His life is filled with many more opportunities for temptation to steer him to do wrong. It is harder for the rich man to get into heaven NOT because he is rich but because the opportunity to give into temptation is greater in his life. That's what those verses are about.
Ignorant Liberals preach about some "lower tax" not taking enough from someone, someone they think "deserves" to pay more.
They are ignorant, because if the effort is for greater revenue, for whatever purpose, they would learn the lessons from economists who demonstrate that "higher" taxes most often do not generate higher revenue (no matter how much "more" they think they're taxing someone) and "lower" taxes quite often do generate more revenue.
> Why do Christians support Republicans who don’t believe in helping the poor?
What an IDJIT!
Helping the poor must be done by GIVING, NOT BY GOVERNMENT CONFISCATION BY THREAT OF FORCE!!!
What is it about the difference between Charity and Theft that these LOSERS just don’t understand?
“Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.”
~ 2nd Corinthians 2:9
“And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw [good].”
It was their moral abominations that caused Sodom's demise.
The grevious sin of Sodom was deviant sexual sin:
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of the eternal fire. (Jude 7) "Sodomy and beastiality."
The sin which we see exhibited in Genesis 19 is not "mistreatment of strangers and travelers". Rather the sin is the attempted sodomite gang rape of the two angels who visited Lot at Sodom:
The men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: And they called to Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. (Genesis 19:4-5)Lot offered them instead his two unmarried virgin daughters, but the sodomites wanted the men and promised "deal worse with thee (Lot), than with them" (19:9) and were about to break through the door, when the men were struck blind.
Though many of its stories and aphorisms criticize the accumulation of wealth and even appear to condemn the wealthy, the Bible has plenty of counter-examples.
My favorite is the parable about the Good Samaritan. The only reason we know about the Good Samaritan is that he had the wherewithal to assist the injured man who had been left for dead alongside the road to Jericho. The Good Samaritan was not only wealthy enough to pay for the man’s immediate room and board at an inn. Indeed he was so wealthy that his credit was good at the inn, which was not common in the days before Visa and American Express.
Two other men saw the injured man before the Good Samaritan. The first was a certain priest who saw him and passed by on the other side. The next was a Levite came and looked on the victim and then passed by the other side. No doubt the priest and the Levite had deep feelings about the injustice served to the victim and thought that society should right such injustices. The Good Samaritan actually did something with his own resources of time, money, and credit. And he could only have done that by previously creating the wealth sufficient to afford spare time and money, and to demonstrate creditworthiness, all of which were exceeding rare in a 1st Century Roman colony.
Other counter-examples abound: Abraham was the richest man on the eastern Mediterranean and is counted as the father of all believers; Job was “the greatest of all the men of the east” and was described as “perfect and upright”; Solomon was “passed all the kings of the earth in riches” and wrote part of the Bible itself. Regarding wisdom, Solomon wrote, “Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour.” He also noted that “He becometh poor that dealeth with a slack hand: but the hand of the diligent maketh rich.” But he puts this in perspective later on: “Riches profit not in the day of wrath: but righteousness delivereth from death.” and “He that trusteth in his riches shall fall; but the righteous shall flourish as a branch.”
Directly relevant to topic at hand is Solomon’s aphorism, “He that oppresseth the poor to increase his riches, and he that giveth to the rich, shall surely come to want.” On that count, politicians of all stripes are at fault. Democrats serve their rich contributors and interests just as much as Republicans. For every Republican tax loophole, bailout, or subsidy, there is a Democrat tax loophole, bailout, or subsidy.
On the other hand, Exodus 23:2,3 commands “Do not follow the crowd in doing wrong. When you give testimony in a lawsuit, do not pervert justice by siding with the crowd, and do not show favoritism to a poor person in a lawsuit.” [NIV]
This whole topic of the Christian attitude about wealth and poverty can be nuanced and sophisticated, but it can be distilled simply in the 10th Commandment: “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.” It pretty well describes the organizing principle of the Democratic Party.
“I see in scripture a mandate to individuals, churches, AND governments to help the poor and needy.”
The scriptural references regarding individuals and churches are so abundant that there’s no need to provide any citations.
Care to give any chapter-and-verse citation to support your assertion regarding the mandate for governments to help the poor and needy? Seriously, I want to know what you think.
Because I think that the state has nothing — absolutely nothing — to offer in this area, and I find no scriptural justification for coercive wealth redistribution.
When the state interferes in this regard, it not only harms the poor but also deprives the well-off of the joy of helping others. It impoverishes us all.
“how do people accuse those whom scripture calls God’s ministers of theft?”
Simple. When they steal, it’s theft.
I already have see post 45.
The claim that the state aiding the poor denies the individual the opportunity to do so is utter nonsense. Neither does the church aiding the poor deny the individual the opportunity to do so either. There is no shortage of needs for individuals and churches to meet, due to the state’s involvement.
And at what point does the collection of taxes levied by laws passed by fairly elected representatives of a free people, become theft?
The left lacks the moral acuity to distinguish charity from redistribution. The first depends upon the liberty of individuals to share their property with the less fortunate, and the latter depends on government’s control of individuals, diminishing their liberty.
Ezekiel 22:12 - “you take interest and make a profit from the poor. You extort unjust gain from your neighbors. And you have forgotten me, declares the Sovereign LORD.”
Could there be a better description of liberalism or Socialism? The left feeds on the poor, profiting the Democratic Party, so it can extort money from one group of people to give to their constituents. They have indeed forgotten God.
“Amos 4:1 - “Hear this word, you cows of Bashan on Mount Samaria, you women who oppress the poor and crush the needy and say to your husbands, ‘Bring us some drinks!’”
Sounds like Hillary and Pelosi. Certainly there is nothing here that might be used to slander charitable Republican women.
“Amos 5:11 - ‘You levy a straw tax on the poor and impose a tax on their grain. Therefore, though you have built stone mansions, you will not live in them; though you have planted lush vineyards, you will not drink their wine.’”
Of course, this isn’t talking about Republican Americans, because the poor aren’t taxed, unless it is by local political bodies, the worst of which are Democrats.
“Luke and other gospels carry a statement by Jesus about the problem facing the rich. “ Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.” Luke 18:24-5”
Notice how Jesus is in no way advocating that the government take riches away form the rich man. Jesus had told him to give his belongings to the poor, and follow him, literally becoming a disciple, as all Christians are to do, even though we now are to follow Christ in the Spirit. You might also notice that there were people of prominence and wealth who were Christians, such as Joseph of Arimathea. The deeper message here is one of “where the heart is.” The rich man was a good man who obeyed the law, but he wasn’t willing to go the extra distance in following Christ. There are many poor people who do no more, and they have less in personal cost and sacrifice stopping them. I would add that there are many Democrats who fail the test.
“Christian Republicans need to recognize that abortion and sexual morality aren’t the only moral issues in politics. Mistreatment of the poor and how the rich acquire wealth are at least as important.
This is more screed defending redistribution of wealth, which is plundering the wealthy, or a legalized theft. It isn’t charity, nor is the so called, “mistreatment of the poor” a practice reserved for Republicans, or even the Rich. Christians need to move in their own hearts to be charitable, and away from those who propose political solutions that absolve them form their responsibilities as Christians. The same immoral lack of principles that allow the taking of innocent life through abortion, “expediency,” is what governs collective politics. The poor are much better off in a wealthy system where they have a chance to move up, as opposed to being in controlled system where they lose the power to do so. ...This kind of leftist rhetoric is no different than what was used by the socialists who gave us the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, fascist Italy, Mao’s China, or any of the totalitarian states that have decided the best thing to do with the unproductive poor is to get rid of them. The writer of this screed would have Christians join the plantation owners. God forbid.
And at what point does the collection of taxes levied by laws passed by fairly elected representatives of a free people, become theft?
Pretty much whenever such laws involve coercion to deprive an individual of his rightful property. The fact that a majority of citizens “fairly elect” representatives to enact laws which take property by force from its rightful owner does not give that taking moral justification.
Isn't that all taxes? What tax doesn't meet that definition?
When scripture says pay taxes, what taxes meet your non-theft criteria?
Post 45 contains three exhortations for the king to deal with the poor with justice and mercy. None of the three citations mandates that the king collect taxes for the purpose of wealth redistribution.
The 4th citation in Post 45 is Paul’s instruction to “Let every soul be subject to the higher powers” and its elucidation. That is an instruction for individual behavior, and has nothing to do with wealth redistribution.
Certainly you can do better than that!
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