Free Republic
Browse · Search
Bloggers & Personal
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Smart Grid: What is the Cost?
Right Side News ^ | 9/22/12 | Rick Haymow

Posted on 09/22/2012 8:55:27 AM PDT by RightSideNews

The “smart” grid: What’s really at stake?

Look at British Columbia: Around the globe, citizens of all walks of life are invited to realize that we’re all now on the playing field of a corporate control end-game. Through power grid modifications and smart meter installations, monopolistic forces are currently implementing a highly-hackable “smart” system of wireless utility metering, monitoring, selling private data, and control of life in citizens’ homes.

(Excerpt) Read more at rightsidenews.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Government; Health/Medicine
KEYWORDS: agenda21; smartgrowth; smartmeter
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-52 next last

1 posted on 09/22/2012 8:55:32 AM PDT by RightSideNews
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: RightSideNews
"Smart grid" has UN Agenda 21 written all over it.

The goal of UN Agenda 21 is to abolish private property rights and impoverish and eventually starve anybody who is not a member of the global ruling-class so the global ruling-class can live in the Walden paradise that they deserve.

2 posted on 09/22/2012 9:00:13 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Government is the religion of the sociopath.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: RightSideNews

We have already decided to install an alternative electrical system.


3 posted on 09/22/2012 9:03:04 AM PDT by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: RightSideNews

Personally I like the monitoring aspect of “smart grid” technology - I’m able to see a real time use of electricity, and I don’t think I really care if someone sees my utility usage.

I do not want on the other hand, control or any restriction on my usage if I have the money to pay for it.


4 posted on 09/22/2012 9:08:40 AM PDT by mike_9958
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: RightSideNews
It's pretty clear this is a scare tactic without a whole lot of reality. Of the recently installed "smart meters" - abut 35 million across the United States, far less that 5% have "control" capability or bi-directional capability. The majority have the ability to send use to the utility with a guy walking or driving around to capture use. They can't control anything except to turn power off...which they had before.

I've seen a ton of hysteria about the smart grid which simply isn't true. It's main benefits are actually seen within the utility companies own infrastructure so they can be aware of constraints, outages, etc at their own transformers and substations.

And the reality of that is that the installations of that level are not prevalent. 40% of all power produced is lost through grid inefficiencies. The "smart grid" when it becomes reality will be used to reduce that.

If you want to be worried about anything, be worried about the reality of dynamic pricing or paying the TRUE price of energy without price controls that have been in pla for more than 20 years. Just go look at the real time pricing within PJM or other system operators.

5 posted on 09/22/2012 9:09:09 AM PDT by Solson (The Voters stole the election! And the establishment wants it back.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: RightSideNews

The primary reason for installing a smart grid is so you can read the meters without sending guys around in trucks to do the job every month. And as long as you’re gathering the data, why not gather it real time, rather than once a month?

Her in Vermont, our electric cooperative is putting in smart meters, but NOT wireless, because their hippie customers would be up in arms if they did that, fearful that all that wireless stuff would rot their brains. (And who knows, maybe it would?)

Not really much different from having a cash machine to replace a teller.

Primary purpose, to save money. Secondary purpose, to give you a detailed picture of your electric use.


6 posted on 09/22/2012 9:26:38 AM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Cicero

Oh, and also, in case of a power failure, it helps them to locate where the problem is a lot faster.


7 posted on 09/22/2012 9:27:13 AM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Solson
From what I've seen, my main concern is goblins hacking in and shutting down power at will. Why bomb the power plant when you can send malicious code from another country?

/johnny

8 posted on 09/22/2012 9:41:17 AM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: mike_9958

“I do not want on the other hand, control or any restriction on my usage if I have the money to pay for it”.

One of many reasons for smart grid tech. For our local coop, the ability to randomly shut customers down during high usage and thus high cost times should generate savings by shifting usage to low cost time of day versus high usage during high cost hours.

OTOH, if there was not a “war on coal” and other EPA stupidity, we wouldn’t have to worry about peak hours of usage for a while.


9 posted on 09/22/2012 9:42:35 AM PDT by wita
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Solson
"I've seen a ton of hysteria about the smart grid which simply isn't true."

You said it! Agenda 21 is a serious concern, but I can't figure out how it has been linked to smart meters. Pretty soon we'll have smart "everything", with sensors everywhere in our daily life and we'll have to deal with the security and privacy issues that go along with that. But a Luddite reaction to new technology just serves to undermine the attempts to stop Agenda 21.

10 posted on 09/22/2012 9:54:00 AM PDT by tentmaker (vote for John Galt)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: RightSideNews

I refuse to allow them to put a smart meter on my house.

I dare them to cut my service when my bills are paid on time, too.

Never EVER buy any electric appliance that has an “energy star” rating, either. They’re all able to “phone home” to the electric company.


11 posted on 09/22/2012 10:07:30 AM PDT by Emperor Palpatine ("On the ascent of Olympus, what's a botched bar or two?" -Artur Schnabel)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: RightSideNews

Implementing a **highly-hackable** system of wireless utility metering, monitoring, selling private data, and control of life in citizens.

1984


12 posted on 09/22/2012 10:08:39 AM PDT by Vaduz
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: wita

“For our local coop, the ability to randomly shut customers down during high usage and thus high cost times should generate savings”

I understand - but I’d rather control my energy usage during peak times rather than have it controlled for me. With smart grid tech they can bill me more at certain times of the day rather than shut me off.... my choice.


13 posted on 09/22/2012 10:27:27 AM PDT by mike_9958
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: RightSideNews; All
monopolistic forces are currently implementing a highly-hackable “smart” system of wireless utility metering, monitoring, selling private data, and control of life in citizens’ homes.

Sigh. Not this s**t again.

Look, I design wireless meter reading equipment and "smart meters" for a living. I hold a patent that is the basis for my company's "drive-by" system. I know a few things about them, OK?

They do not "control life" in citizens' homes. If you agree to have your pool pump or water heater shut down at peak demand times, you can always go and push the button and turn it back on. Demand response SAVES PEOPLE MONEY by avoiding power drain at peak times, when utilities have to bring expensive auxilliary generation on-line.

I guess you'd prefer rolling blackouts. Keep up the attacks on metering, and you'll have them soon enough.

These meters have so little memory in their little computers, there isn't room for surveillance or whatever you think they are doing. And if any of that kind of crap showed up at a software design review at my company, it would immediately be taken out, because that isn't the kind of junk we do.

And "smart grid" is just a method to re-route large electric transmission lines to meet demand and to overcome damage. If there was a severe solar storm, or God forbid, EMP, a "smart grid" might allow us to shut down in time to avoid damage.

And as to "hackable", I'd like to see any hacker try. Oh, wait, they did, and 256-bit AES encryption isn't breakable in a reasonable length of time. That's why the NSA and other government agencies use it for encryption of top-secret data.

I get so tired of these threads that bash American meter manufacturers who create thousands of high-tech jobs. There is plenty of Agenda 21 and other communist crap in government. Take the witch hunt ELSEWHERE.

14 posted on 09/22/2012 11:14:11 AM PDT by backwoods-engineer (My game is disruption. I will use lethal force --my vote-- in self-defense against Obama.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Emperor Palpatine
Never EVER buy any electric appliance that has an “energy star” rating, either. They’re all able to “phone home” to the electric company.

PROVE IT. Show me in the schematic of these appliance or in their firmware that they have a wired or wireless connection back to the utility company. You can't.

THAT IS A LIE, and you are scaring people by spreading it.

15 posted on 09/22/2012 11:18:16 AM PDT by backwoods-engineer (My game is disruption. I will use lethal force --my vote-- in self-defense against Obama.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: RightSideNews

Related article: “Risks of the Smart Grid”
http://tamarawilhite.hubpages.com/hub/Risks-of-the-Smart-Grid


16 posted on 09/22/2012 11:18:23 AM PDT by tbw2
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: mike_9958

“Personally I like the monitoring aspect of “smart grid” technology - I’m able to see a real time use of electricity, and I don’t think I really care if someone sees my utility usage.”

You’ll care when you find out your house was broken into during a vacation, because your ‘smart-meter’ ratted you out to a utility employee who told his not-so-honest buddy.


17 posted on 09/22/2012 11:55:54 AM PDT by BobL (You can live each day only once. You can waste a few, but don't waste too many.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Solson

“It’s pretty clear this is a scare tactic without a whole lot of reality.”

It’s ALWAYS easier to find out afterwards just what the implications of something is. That is the lazy way.

Yes, I have a smart meter. No, it doesn’t control my house. But yes, I may soon have pay HUGE AMOUNTS of money to operate my ac during the summer, during the hottest parts of the day, particularly if the wind isn’t blowing in West Texas.

You may want to next see what’s happening to appliances and other large power users. I value my privacy and ability to use my hardware when I want to without some ‘entity’ punishing me if I don’t do it by their rules - just like I value my freedom to drive when and where I want to, without some government person punishing me for driving at the wrong times, or on the wrong roads, by their standards...but I know that’s coming next.

It’s a shame others are so willing to simply give up their freedoms and privacy so easily.


18 posted on 09/22/2012 12:02:38 PM PDT by BobL (You can live each day only once. You can waste a few, but don't waste too many.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Emperor Palpatine

“Never EVER buy any electric appliance that has an “energy star” rating, either. They’re all able to “phone home” to the electric company.”

I don’t believe that’s the case now...but it will be soon. It won’t just be “Energy Star” it will be everything.


19 posted on 09/22/2012 12:04:42 PM PDT by BobL (You can live each day only once. You can waste a few, but don't waste too many.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: backwoods-engineer

“I guess you’d prefer rolling blackouts. Keep up the attacks on metering, and you’ll have them soon enough. “

Some of us prefer SUFFICIENT CAPACITY. But there is another story about 200 coal plants being shutdown. Yes, we can shut them down, as long as we control when people use power.

You may like that, being an insider and lining your wallet with it, but most people that I know don’t.


20 posted on 09/22/2012 12:06:59 PM PDT by BobL (You can live each day only once. You can waste a few, but don't waste too many.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: RightSideNews

Has anyone else seen those trucks with the giant pods in them?
I noticed a lot of them parked in front of the local Democrat office.


21 posted on 09/22/2012 12:07:33 PM PDT by Leep (I'm a Chic-Fil-- A-merican)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Leep

Carry the giant pods that is.


22 posted on 09/22/2012 12:08:14 PM PDT by Leep (I'm a Chic-Fil-- A-merican)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Leep

carrying..ugh


23 posted on 09/22/2012 12:21:31 PM PDT by Leep (I'm a Chic-Fil-- A-merican)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: RightSideNews

I live in a community of 1,300 people. When the so called smart meters where installed this summer within a week nearly half the businesses in town had terrible fires and many homeownersw did also. It was all due to low voltage conditions to older appliances. The State Fire Marshall has been investigating for nearly four months. What do you think the chances are that it will be a white wash?


24 posted on 09/22/2012 12:34:38 PM PDT by Patriot365
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: BobL

“You’ll care when you find out your house was broken into during a vacation, because your ‘smart-meter’ ratted you out to a utility employee who told his not-so-honest buddy.”

Yeah that is a small downside... but I do have an alarm, and the post office worker could do the same thing as well as a neighbor, office worker, etc.


25 posted on 09/22/2012 12:36:16 PM PDT by mike_9958
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: mike_9958

“Yeah that is a small downside... but I do have an alarm, and the post office worker could do the same thing as well as a neighbor, office worker, etc.”

Hopefully your neighbors and coworkers aren’t into those things. As for the PO, that’s a big risk, and, at least on this site, letting the PO know is very highly discouraged.


26 posted on 09/22/2012 12:41:45 PM PDT by BobL (You can live each day only once. You can waste a few, but don't waste too many.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: BobL
Poppycock! You will pay more because that is the market price! There is no invasion of privacy just because you have a meter that tells the utility company how much power you use and when. In fact, the grid doesn't work without it!

I know exactly what is happening with large power users, appliances, etc. it's called technology and people aren't investing in it because " it feels good " nor to gain private information. They're investing because people are interested in buying.

That cannot be said for some other areas of energy, like solar and wind being subsidized. But this "concern" over "smart grid" is typically from folks that know absolutely nothing about energy, the power grid, or what these meters can and cannot do.

Finally, if you're that concerned, take it with your states Public Utility Commission because utilities can't wipe without their approval. The energy markets should be deregulated completely and yes, users, residential, commercial and industrial should pay the market price. That would spur a TON of innovation, jobs, and stability.

27 posted on 09/22/2012 12:45:39 PM PDT by Solson (The Voters stole the election! And the establishment wants it back.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Solson

Since when did you big-government APOLOGISTS show up on this site?

On this site we value FREEDOM AND PRIVACY and most of us don’t mind if that requires a few more power plants or a few more highways lanes, so we can use our A/C when we want and drive where we want (and also when we want).

So, please, take your LIBERTARIAN ideas elsewhere. We don’t you guys using your ‘technology’ to help ‘transform’ this country into some demented vision of a small group of utopians. We were doing just fine with dumb meters and dumb highways.


28 posted on 09/22/2012 12:50:19 PM PDT by BobL (You can live each day only once. You can waste a few, but don't waste too many.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: JRandomFreeper
Meters just tell you the use after its been generated. That said, there is serious and real concern ain't hacking into a generation facility through networks. In fact it's quite easy and industry groups have been working to secure it for a few years now.

where it was compared To where it is now is a vast improvement but there is still a long way to go.

most network design with metering and field devices could be and are susceptible to a hack but the problems would be localized because of the distributed nature. It's akin to a virus on your On your home computer versus a DOS attack.

29 posted on 09/22/2012 12:52:41 PM PDT by Solson (The Voters stole the election! And the establishment wants it back.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: BobL
Are you really this benighted? You just complained about having to pay more to use electricity during peak times and then argue about big government? You're clueless.

Go ahead and explain how "smart meters" take away either your privacy or freedom. In case you didn't realize it, you BUY power from another company. You don't like it, don't buy it. No one is forcing you.

And no we are NOT doing just fine with "dumb meters" as it adds to the cost and results in more outages than a real time meter.

30 posted on 09/22/2012 12:58:01 PM PDT by Solson (The Voters stole the election! And the establishment wants it back.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: Solson
The "smart grid" when it becomes reality will be used to reduce that.

I2R
It's the law!

Regards,
GtG

31 posted on 09/22/2012 12:58:35 PM PDT by Gandalf_The_Gray (I live in my own little world, I like it 'cuz they know me here.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Emperor Palpatine

Your comment about “energy star” is an absolute lie. There are plenty of reasons to,oppose energy star, but they cannot phone home....at all.


32 posted on 09/22/2012 1:00:08 PM PDT by Solson (The Voters stole the election! And the establishment wants it back.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: backwoods-engineer

I’m in the industry as well. So tired of the lies and hysteria when it’s much better applied on real problems.


33 posted on 09/22/2012 1:01:20 PM PDT by Solson (The Voters stole the election! And the establishment wants it back.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: Solson

“That cannot be said for some other areas of energy, like solar and wind being subsidized. But this “concern” over “smart grid” is typically from folks that know absolutely nothing about energy, the power grid, or what these meters can and cannot do.”

By the way, people with your attitude of SUPERIORITY are not appreciated on this site. If we want to get talked down to, we’ll go on to the liberal sites - thank you.

And by the way, you have NO CLUE as to my background, just as I have no clue as to yours - that’s why we try to treat others with respect, at least on this site.


34 posted on 09/22/2012 1:04:31 PM PDT by BobL (You can live each day only once. You can waste a few, but don't waste too many.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Solson

“And no we are NOT doing just fine with “dumb meters” as it adds to the cost and results in more outages than a real time meter.”

We were doing JUST FINE without smart meters, at least in Texas. I don’t remember ANY problems with our grid, until the last few years when we stopped building power plants and only THEN started having outages.

I realize that everyone needs to make a living - it doesn’t mean what they’re doing to this country is good or right.


35 posted on 09/22/2012 1:06:56 PM PDT by BobL (You can live each day only once. You can waste a few, but don't waste too many.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: BobL

I’ve been here since the start so kindly shove it. If you don’t like “superiority” quit being paranoid about half-truths and lies.


36 posted on 09/22/2012 1:07:14 PM PDT by Solson (The Voters stole the election! And the establishment wants it back.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: Gandalf_The_Gray
Yep...but it can be reduced.

http://www.marineengineeringmanagement.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/USEnFlow01-useful.png

37 posted on 09/22/2012 1:09:09 PM PDT by Solson (The Voters stole the election! And the establishment wants it back.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Solson

“I’ve been here since the start so kindly shove it. If you don’t like “superiority” quit being paranoid about half-truths and lies.”

I didn’t start here yesterday either, but I don’t attack others just to line my pockets.

What have I said that are half-truths and lies? That the plan is to charge people for power dynamically? That FUTURE large energy consumers (appliances) will have a data link to something (smart meter, maybe something else). I can back up what I say - can you PROVE that what I say is wrong and will never be done.


38 posted on 09/22/2012 1:10:17 PM PDT by BobL (You can live each day only once. You can waste a few, but don't waste too many.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: Solson

...and by the way, if you notice, I had a much earlier post POLITELY telling the Energy Star guy that he was wrong (likely will not be wrong forever, but is wrong now).

We DO NOT bully people that disagree with us on this site, or at least haven’t until now.


39 posted on 09/22/2012 1:12:14 PM PDT by BobL (You can live each day only once. You can waste a few, but don't waste too many.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: Solson

“Go ahead and explain how “smart meters” take away either your privacy or freedom.”

...and, no, you won’t draw me into your little game by playing dumb. If you’re such an ‘energy insider’ you know EXACTLY how ‘smart meters’ will affect behavior. Otherwise, why have them?


40 posted on 09/22/2012 1:14:01 PM PDT by BobL (You can live each day only once. You can waste a few, but don't waste too many.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: BobL

I told you why the utilities are installing them. It ain’t about control just because you say they are. They have NO capacity to shut off your refrigerator, your phone, nor your TV. At all.


41 posted on 09/22/2012 1:16:04 PM PDT by Solson (The Voters stole the election! And the establishment wants it back.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: Solson

“I told you why the utilities are installing them. It ain’t about control just because you say they are. They have NO capacity to shut off your refrigerator, your phone, nor your TV. At all.”

You keep talking in the present tense. I’M NOT AN IDIOT. I know EXACTLY how my appliances work, I bought them, I installed them, I service them, and I fix them. I know that they have NO DATA LINKS AT ALL. I also know that all changes in 5 years (10 years at most) when people buy new appliances. That is my point - so don’t try the semantics trick on me.


42 posted on 09/22/2012 1:20:38 PM PDT by BobL (You can live each day only once. You can waste a few, but don't waste too many.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: BobL

And how are the future appliances talking to your smart meter? Does it involve a consumer choice at all? Yes, it does. There is no forcing. Period.


43 posted on 09/22/2012 1:23:07 PM PDT by Solson (The Voters stole the election! And the establishment wants it back.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: Solson

“And how are the future appliances talking to your smart meter? Does it involve a consumer choice at all? Yes, it does. There is no forcing. Period.”

Probably not, but when you have to pay 5 times as much to use your AC when you want to (as opposed to when it’s cheap), that’s equivalent to forcing 90% of the people...and that is my point.


44 posted on 09/22/2012 1:26:25 PM PDT by BobL (You can live each day only once. You can waste a few, but don't waste too many.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: RightSideNews
The item I keep running across on Smart Grid tech is that it requires a different type of connection then the standard copper wire. Supposedly it will be constructed via nanotech and be more like a mesh construction (Sorta reminded me of a really large chicken wire fence.)

The bottom line is its supposed to cut down on resistance (The electrical kind).

45 posted on 09/22/2012 1:28:40 PM PDT by Mad Dawgg (If you're going to deny my 1st Amendment rights then I must proceed to the 2nd one...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: BobL

The cost of using energy has NOTHING to do with a smart meter. Nothing. It has to do with the price of producing energy. Pricing at peak times is going to be higher. It’s supply and demand. It’s capitalism.


46 posted on 09/22/2012 1:38:45 PM PDT by Solson (The Voters stole the election! And the establishment wants it back.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: Solson

“The cost of using energy has NOTHING to do with a smart meter. Nothing. It has to do with the price of producing energy. Pricing at peak times is going to be higher. It’s supply and demand. It’s capitalism.”

AGAIN, most people ON THIS SITE are willing to pay a bit more per kWh to have the FREEDOM to use power when they want, without you guys using your new capability of driving them broke to match your ‘vision’. If you’re against that - fine, but you’re not on a friendly site for that.


47 posted on 09/22/2012 1:55:31 PM PDT by BobL (You can live each day only once. You can waste a few, but don't waste too many.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: BobL

You have the freedom to use as much as you want. And the company you buy it from has the FREEDOM to charge you for it. What do you NOT understand about a free market economy?


48 posted on 09/22/2012 1:58:03 PM PDT by Solson (The Voters stole the election! And the establishment wants it back.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: Solson

“You have the freedom to use as much as you want. And the company you buy it from has the FREEDOM to charge you for it. What do you NOT understand about a free market economy?”

So you’re good with Dynamic Pricing - that’s fine, just the wrong web site.


49 posted on 09/22/2012 2:07:23 PM PDT by BobL (You can live each day only once. You can waste a few, but don't waste too many.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]

To: BobL

Not at all. Dynamic pricing is market pricing. Just because you like the price controls that Carter and Obama support, doesn’t mean it’s a conservative approach.


50 posted on 09/22/2012 2:15:22 PM PDT by Solson (The Voters stole the election! And the establishment wants it back.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-52 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Bloggers & Personal
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson