Posted on 11/16/2013 5:37:57 AM PST by ClaytonP
One of the more common refrains in the “Where have all of the good men gone!” lament is men’s increasing unwillingness to court women the way women expect to be courted. This is almost always framed as either a great mystery or a case of weak men screwing up feminism (or both).
Examples of this concern abound, from Aunt Haley’s last three posts, to the divorced single mother who found out men weren’t willing to spend very much to court her, to the woman in Vox’s recent post lamenting that her 59 year old friend was only offered half a sandwich by a recent date. Commenter Tom H weighed in with the same concern the other day about his two 30ish career women daughters who struggle to find men who will date them without “pushing for sex”.
How did we get here?
To better understand why men are withdrawing from courtship we need to consider the roles men and women play in the process and how the sexual revolution has impacted the landscape. Men foot the searching costs in the marriage and sexual marketplace (MMP & SMP). This means bearing most of the risk of rejection and expending the bulk of the resources to facilitate the process of meeting and getting to know one another. As the ones who bear the costs of courtship, men have a strong incentive to minimize the number of women they court and the overall duration of time spent in the process. However, as the consumers of courtship, women have an incentive to draw the process out as long as possible and to receive courtship from as many men as possible.
Over the last few decades the expectation that men bear the bulk of the costs and risks of courtship has remained relatively constant, but the time period women expect to be courted has expanded dramatically.
As recently as 1980, the median age of marriage for women in the US was 22. By 2011 this was 26.5, but this signifigantly understates the nature of the change since it doesn’t account for the rapidly expanding group of 30 something women who haven’t been able to marry. A full 25% of all US White 30-34 year old women have yet to marry, and these aging would be brides are the loudest voices complaining about the lack of courtship.
The problem with women’s complaints about courtship is easier to understand if you consider the needs of the man. He needs to manage risk vs reward. When courting, there are two fundamental risks. These are the risk of wasting resources on the wrong women, and the risk of rejection harming the man’s reputation/MMV.
Risk of wasting resources on the wrong women.
There are three subcategories of resource risk:
Risk of rejection harming the man’s reputation/MMV.
This basic risk can in turn be broken down into two subcategories:
For the ladies reading who might be offended at this, I’ll frame it differently. Picture your ideal husband. Do you want him to propose to you after having been rejected by numerous other women? Of course not. You don’t want to feel like the consolation prize, and you don’t wan’t to marry a man whom other women are known to have rejected. In order to avoid this, the man you ultimately marry must be careful with how freely he expresses interest in women who aren’t signaling an interest in him.
On the question of wasting resources, do you want your future husband to divide his courtship resources between you and many other women? Or do you want all of his available courtship investment to be devoted solely to you?
What does a woman’s age have to do with courtship?
For a man who is managing the risks of courtship outlined above, the age of a woman is very important. The older a woman is, the more likely it is that she is very picky and/or not seriously looking for a husband. Older women also are less attractive from a courtship perspective because they have used up more of their most attractive/fertile years, and while their attractiveness for marriage has declined their expectations for courtship have only increased. In short, the older a woman gets the worse a bet she becomes (on average) when it comes to courting her.
There is another impact of women increasing the time period they expect courtship, and this is on men’s willingness to court younger women. Consider the 25% of current early thirties White women who still haven’t married; unless they are terminally unattractive an awful lot of courtship has almost certainly been wasted on them. They aren’t just bad bets for courtship today, but (in retrospect) they clearly were bad bets for courtship for the last 15 years. Even more telling, just shy of half of all late twenties White women have never married, which means five years ago 50% of early twenties White women were a complete and total waste of traditional courtship risk and resources. Given the direction of the trends over the last five years, the risk is even higher today.
Put simply, the extended delay of marriage by women has placed marriage minded men in a dilemma; older women are (generally speaking) known bad bets for courtship, but half of early twenties women are also poor bets for courtship. And this is before the man in question starts to consider which of the good bets for courtship (in general) would be a good bet for him personally to court.
It is also worth noting that it isn’t just in delaying marriage that women are extending the period of expected courtship. Women are also driving our divorce revolution, and even with a track record of being the worst possible courtship risk (the kind who marries and then gets unhaaaapy) they still expect to be courted all over again.
The logical adjustment by men.
There are only two logical ways men can respond to women’s extension of courtship. The first logical choice is to recognize that these women are debasing marriage, and decide to “court” for sex and not marriage. For most late teens and early twenties women, this is the only form of courtship which makes sense. This is true in even higher percentages for women in their late twenties or higher. For women looking to soak up courtship in today’s hookup culture there is another serious problem; when courting for sex it is in a man’s best interest to greatly limit the amount of resources he spends before getting sex from a woman. This allows him to cast a wide net while keeping his expenditures down. Ironically, as we have learned from Game a man’s chances of receiving sex from a woman are actually higher when practicing the skittles method of courtship (crass site warning).
But while “courting” for sex is a logical choice, it is not a moral choice, and we still do see men courting for marriage. For these men, having a fairly low age cutoff makes a great deal of sense. A woman in her late twenties who claims to be serious about traditional marriage is far less believable and attractive than a woman who indicates the same thing in her late teens or early twenties. Admittedly few women in their early twenties are believably signaling an interest in marrying soon, but this is a plus when trying to minimize spreading courtship resources around too freely. There are of course a number of other markers a man should consider when determining if a woman is a good bet for marriage, which will narrow the field down further. Making things worse for women looking to soak up “traditional” courtship, the logical strategy for traditional courtship isn’t that different than the strategy for men courting for sex; logically speaking, traditional men should keep courtship expenditure to a minimum until a woman has indicated a fairly strong interest in marrying him. Given the large numbers of women not actually interested in marrying at any given time and the opportunity cost of focusing on a non serious candidate, traditional men will do best to greatly limit their courtship efforts and expenditure until around the time of an engagement, and if they are smart they will also insist on keeping the length of the engagement as short as logistically possible.
ROFLMAO!!!
You might just be on to something here!
The reason a lot of men have bitterness over the "bad boy" is because the "bad boy" is the guy who succeeds with women time after time after time by doing things and treating women in ways that polite society, conventional wisdom, our mothers, and other women in our lives specifically tell us we are NOT supposed to do. Basically, you have to be a complete and total d-bag, and the chicks come running, but this is not in most guys DNA anymore, we get confused and angry. It took me years to figure this out, and I still have trouble and guilt actually pulling it off even though it works, so the anger is understandable.
It pretty much illustrates what you're saying. (lol)
I used to understand the occasional use of the term “bad boy” when used to describe high school dating, but on this thread and on some others, it seems that to some, it merely is an expression of jealousy, revenge of the nerds stuff, there are some very angry posts on this thread, as though the scars of jealousy and envy run deep.
It occurred to me yesterday that Jack Nicholson, is an example of the “bad boy” personality with females.
man...with your warm personality maybe you are better off solo honey
life is too short to be so sharp pointed
im not even going to look but your hear me roarness has to be yankee
course you can claim to be anyone
fembot stridency is not a conservative value but by all means suit yourself
you can as you say...do as you please
You may need a metaphorical exorcism Clayton
Might I suggest the bars along lower McKinney on Friday nite...bring yer wallet...its a cornucopia of great Texican DNA
Bars? seriously?
You mean where the women spend their 20s hooking up with dozens of different men and then expect a guy to marry them in their 30s?
man ...some freepers are sour...I was talking about female enjoyment...not necessarily marriage
sorry...live your life as you like...I got variety outta my system before marrying in my 30s...
I did fine..see my homepage
neither of us were vestal virgins but I got no complaints
just seems to me the nice parts of Big D got some babes galore...good southern girls and some fairly hot latinas too
You claim you don’t generalize yet you have a hard on for men after your crappy ex husband dear.
You do practically all the bad manners you detest in us...men...your own self.
I got burned by an ex wife....a real harridan...I mean Joan Crawford stereotype...that wild scared horse eyes look
I got up...dusted myself off , gave her all the money..it was easier and she had primary residential custody which is of course the big hammer but I kept on looking and loving women till I found a better mate..still do..same one 20 years..a fine Charleston/Nashville gal who likes being a mom, wife and female without all that competitive distraction
and no short bobs and gray hair or mandals..lol
girls are frustrating God knows at times but they are still best thing going...men and wimmin are just truly distinctly different even to the point of stereotyping despite culture’s best efforts to eradicate what is natural
even you darling..you just need someone be good to you...but you gotta let em
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I’m late to this thread but all I can say is, last weekend my 4th child (out of 5), a daughter, came home from college and seemed quiet and sad. She told me the story of how her boyfriend of 4 months broke up with her because she wouldn’t have sex with him.
There are still decent girls and guys out there, it’s just difficult to match them up. I told my daughter to keep her standards high, how would she feel if she had slept with the jerk and he broke up with her because that’s obviously all he wanted. Chalk it up to an important lesson learned and move on.
Wow. Way to put relationships in terms of a business marketplace.
That’s a huge part of the problem right there.
“Your average courting-age woman spends more on clothes and makeup and hair salons and nail salons, etc., etc.—let alone the time costs of putting it all together—than a man does in picking up a few checks.”
Costs born in this regard are costs that would have already be incurred REGARDLESS of courtship considerations.
My wife wouldn’t walk into Macy’s to return a dress without being showered, in makeup, and dressed in something other than sweats. She was that way before she knew me, and is that way today.
We are under NO illusion that the efforts a woman makes to look good is because of concern for her mate. Please.
If that were the case, there’d be a lot more women out there with long hair.
You are right, but most women don't get that. They really do think that the clothes and make-up will impress the men.
I tell ya, men today are SOOOO impressed by women sporting tattoos, dressed all in black like Albanian mafia widows, yapping incessantly on their smarttelephones..
It sounds like my life.
We had one of those kinds of antennas in the attic, and although he never re-did the transmission in the bathtub, I find my oven constantly being used to dry projects and set epoxy for the latest repair job.
You and mr. mm would get on great.
You must live in the PacNW.
My wife runs a department full of women, and SHE complains of the crazy.
She keeps hoping they’ll hire a male math teacher just to cut through the estrogen.
A little help with the housework can go SOOOOO far.
It's not a matter of her not being able to do it but it's an acknowledgement of the effort she puts into running the house. A husband who comes home at night, eats dinner, watches TV or gets on the computer, and then crashes and spends no time with his wife is telling her by his actions that she is unimportant to him.
And when he expects a warm welcome in bed just because he wants sex and is acting like he's doing her a big favor by offering it to her, he ain't going to get it. Women whose husbands are not interested in them except for sex are sending their wives the signal that they are just using them and no woman wants to feel like she's being used, even by and especially by, her own husband.
AFAIC, keep the flowers, the candy, the dinners, and just spend time with me. Without the investment in time together, I see all that other stuff as just buying my favor or appeasing me.
Kids never entered into the discussion because kids don’t seem to be a priority to women anymore.
Nothing is more anti-kid right now that the USA. There is ZERO premium right now on preserving the family.
Indeed, even this new Obamacare crap makes it CHEAPER TO LIVE AS A DIVORCED COUPLE than remain a family.
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