Posted on 06/24/2005 7:13:06 AM PDT by hispanichoosier
I need help with LOTR. Two friends and I were discussing the books and movies last weekend. Friend 1 observed that the relationship between Frodo and Sam (in the movies) had homosexual overtones. Friend 2 retorted that the relationship is based on the master/servant relationship of old England and that Friend 1 was looking at it through American eyes, where rugged individualism is more prized. I--caught in the middle--had to admit that I thought that Sean Astin overplayed Sam at times but was great overall.
So, was Friend 1 right about the gay overtones, or was Friend 2's explanation correct? I'm rather at a loss over the whole debacle.
I nominate this as post of the thread! Well Put.
The scene does come directly from JRRT's Frodo's encounter with Galadriel at the Mirror. The haughty Noldorian princess, related to but not controlled by Feanor, came to Middle Earth in the first place to set up her own kingdom and rule it to her pleasure--so that scene meant a lot when she suddenly became fragile, humbled and "diminished" after playing Lady Frankenstein. I think it works. "I'll remain Galadriel..."
I agree that all the actors gave excellent performances with the roles they were given. However, many of the movie characters were significantly different in personality and motivation from the characters Tolkien created - some so much so that they were different people with the same names.
How much one is bothered by the alterations of plot and character made by Peter Jackson is, of course, a personal matter. It bothered me a lot!
I know the scene had to be there. I just think it was a bit over the top in the way it was done...
Faramir is the one that bugs me the most. The extended editions made him a little closer to how he really is in the books...but only a little.
Sam & Frodo have a relationship that would look very, very odd for almost any two men to go thru today. But in the context of the book and the movies, it's not gay. At all. It works for what it is.
"I think the simple 'rustic' love of Sam and his Rosie (nowhere elaborated) is absolutely essential to the study of his character, and to the theme of the realtion of ordianry life (breathing, eating, working, begetting) and quests, sacrifice, causes, and the 'longing for Elves', and sheer beauty."
-JRRT, Letter to Milton Walman, probably written late 1951
(The Letters of JRR Tolkien, ed H. Carpenter, Houghton Miffin 2000)
Heh... I think the visuals in the Galadriel Halloween scene were just a little over the top is all ;~D
I think it's easy to be too hard on the films for not showing something exactly like we pictured, or not showing the full depth of all the characters found in the books. We've certainly gone round and round about changes and omissions and additions to the plot. But after all that was over, it is a pretty good work of film.
I think it was, without exception, perfectly drawn in the films... the art and set were perfect. I also think it was perfectly cast, but some might disagree around the fringes.
I thought it was more of an older brother/younger brother, but you are right, they did reverse the ages in the film. In the book, Sam is younger than Frodo (who is about 50 in hobbit-years, which would be ~ thirtysomething in human years)
I think you're probably closer on that ... my boys are all still at the "fight like wolf puppies" stage, so I wasn't thinking of brothers :-).
I completely missed the whole gay hobbit aspect of the movie.
I have at six male friends that I am very close to and have known for over 20 years. I don't consider my relationship to any of them to be of a homosexual nature. They are like brothers, for which I would help in any way I could. As long as they didn't ask me to be gay! : )
The change that offended me most was making Gimli into a buffoon.
I kind of liked Elrond as "young Sam Neill with post-traumatic stress," though. I thought he was a bit bland in the books :-).
I saw Frodo and Sam as about the same age in the film... and saw Frodo as being more sophisticated, undoudedtly assisted by my mind's eye background of what they should be from the books. I loved Elijah Wood's portrayal of Frodo. He can communicate more with his eyes than some actors can with great dialogue.
Heh... well, they are going on four years ago now ;~D
you're absolutely right! My previous post to you was a waste of time in and of itself!
Veritas Vos Liberabit
I could live with his changes - Elrond, I mean. Though he wasn't NEARLY that grumpy and cynical in the books...
Some of the other elves didn't fare so well, though. Haldir - ugh! I know he's just a minor character, but that bothered me just the same.
And, as Mamzelle said, Aragorn's being so unsure of himself and kinda hiding from his duties irked me, though I've kind of gotten used to it. It bothered me most when I first saw FOTR.
You may think it is "fighting" but to wolf pups, it is playing.
My boys are grown up now, and can look on their "wolf puppy" days with fondness and nostalgia. They still tease their sisters, though.
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