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To: onja

"the Carthaginians were not so arrogant and were easily allyable with barbarians. The Romans were the mortal enemies of them which caused (eventually) their downfall."

The Carthaginians were barbarians in Roman eyes, but to say the Carthaginians weren't arrogant while the Romans were isn't discussion.

Also, the Romans had fully half their army made up of auxiliary units which were non-Roman, and after Rome got to be a big deal (and the Senatorial corruption undermined incentives for citizens to serve in the Roman army) even the regular legions were not all that Roman. The Roman empire was a "barbarian" empire.

Sounds like your big time bias toward Carthage is moving off toward disorder. Ancient people were just people, no matter who they were, and shouldn't be idealized.

The Carthaginians/Phoenicians were renowned as sailors and merchants. The Periplus of Hanno (used to be a thread about that on FR) describes a Carthaginian expedition along the Atlantic coast of Africa as far south (at least) as Mount Cameroun. Herodotus (a Greek writer, who was born in a Carian town) records the story of an Egyptian pharaoh who hired Phoenicians to depart the Red Sea and circumnavigate Africa.

On a more poetic note -- in an old (1974 I think) issue of National Geographic, the cover story is "The Phoenicians". The article begins near ancient Tyre in Lebanon, where the fishermen are hauling back their nets, chanting "el-leee-sah". One of the sources interviewed by the author of that story is quoted as saying, "If you ask them why they do it, they can't tell you. They don't know... Elissa, Princess of Tyre..."


14 posted on 07/26/2005 7:17:52 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated by FR profile on Tuesday, May 10, 2005.)
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To: SunkenCiv

Yeah. The Cathaginians weren't perfect. Still, other than religion wise(killing children), they seem to be a very good society. The Carthaginians were a very cultured society and had many of the Roman ideals. But I think(not sure) the Carthaginians were liked better because they treated barbarians moreso(not completely) like equals.


19 posted on 07/26/2005 7:29:15 AM PDT by onja ("The government of England is a limited mockery." (France is a complete mockery.))
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To: SunkenCiv

The article begins near ancient Tyre in Lebanon, where the fishermen are hauling back their nets, chanting "el-leee-sah". One of the sources interviewed by the author of that story is quoted as saying, "If you ask them why they do it, they can't tell you. They don't know... Elissa, Princess of Tyre..."

She must've been quite a babe to be remembered for over $2,000 years. There's a preserved 'tall ship' named Elissa at Galveston.

Makes you wonder if 2,000 years from now, people will be chanting: Jay...Lo. Somehow I doubt it.


32 posted on 07/26/2005 8:56:45 AM PDT by wildbill
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