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Defense team wants rape evidence quickly
Herald Sun (Durham NC) ^ | May 15, 2006 : 10:56 pm ET | By Ray Gronberg : The Herald-Sun

Posted on 05/16/2006 4:39:46 AM PDT by Perdogg

DURHAM -- Lawyers for accused Duke lacrosse player Reade Seligmann want a judge to hold hearings Thursday on whether to compel police and prosecutors to turn over the evidence they've compiled while investigating the alleged gang rape.

The motions have to be heard now because there's a risk that evidence that could exonerate Seligmann "will spoil if not preserved properly," lawyers Kirk Osborn and Ernest Conner said. They said that could happen due to political pressure Durham officials might be putting on investigators.

Seligmann's defense team

(Excerpt) Read more at heraldsun.com ...


TOPICS: Chit/Chat; Local News
KEYWORDS: duke; dukelax; durham; lyingwhores; railroaded; shafted
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To: FlowJo

IIRC, she had severe financial troubles. That would supply the motive to try and get some money from some "rich" Duke students. She took on far more than she realized she was.


101 posted on 05/16/2006 12:14:31 PM PDT by twigs
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To: GAgal

Yes, if the report shows live sperm in the vaginal swab, it's only a few hours old. So, I guess the report says that, based on the defense comments.


102 posted on 05/16/2006 12:44:48 PM PDT by ltc8k6
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To: baltodog

I believe he is innocent, too. For pragmatic reasons. Why would such a handsome, intelligent, virile, athletic,young man want to engage in forced sex with a skanky, cruddy, drunk (and probably diseased) whore, when he could have his pick of many willing coeds on the Duke campus?


103 posted on 05/16/2006 12:51:27 PM PDT by Palladin ("Governor Lynn Swann."...it has a nice ring to it!)
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To: Howlin
the SANE report is a subjective report....it is something that can't be verified nor replicated....

and most importantly, you can't DATE when injuries occur, unless there is fresh bleeding....but I don't think that's the case here....

104 posted on 05/16/2006 1:01:48 PM PDT by cherry (.)
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To: Palladin
I believe he is innocent, too. For pragmatic reasons. Why would such a handsome, intelligent, virile, athletic,young man want to engage in forced sex with a skanky, cruddy, drunk (and probably diseased) whore, when he could have his pick of many willing coeds on the Duke campus?

Because "rape is about power, not sex"...so say the feminist anyway.

A large part of this debacle in Durham is due to propaganda replacing common sense.

105 posted on 05/16/2006 1:08:44 PM PDT by Publius22
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To: js1138
"The real problem here is that the accuser stands a good chance of losing her children. Now prior to this situation she has not been a model citizen, but she has not exactly been a minion of Satan either. Basically she gets into trouble and lies. This is really a classic case of a lie told to get out of trouble causing enormous pain for lots of people. Hollywood used to make movies out of situations like this, but I bet they pass on this one."

Wow you hit it right on the head. No tin foil hats needed, just a lie gone bad.

I maintain that Nifong is the real villain of the piece, she's just a stupid ho who tried to save her own butt (or her kids) and it got out of control because of Nifong's political needs.
106 posted on 05/16/2006 1:12:44 PM PDT by don'tbedenied ( D)
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To: cherry

I wonder if the SANE report comes in or not? If the DA introduces the SANE report, then he opens the door to the DNA found on her.

If the DA does not mention the DNA found in her nor injuries, then the other man is not involved. If he mentions the DNA found in her or claims injuries, he has openned a door he may not wish to open.


107 posted on 05/16/2006 1:30:48 PM PDT by JLS
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To: JLS
If the DA does not mention the DNA found in her nor injuries, then the other man is not involved. If he mentions the DNA found in her or claims injuries, he has openned a door he may not wish to open.

what you say doesn't make sense. The defense would get it admitted in any trial.

108 posted on 05/16/2006 1:35:30 PM PDT by connectthedots
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To: connectthedots

Not with most rape shield laws. I don't know the details of the NC law, but I suspect the only way the other man gets in is if the prosecution tries to show injuries or mentions DNA on her.

The defense will of course point out that no DNA from the lacrosse players was found in or on her.


109 posted on 05/16/2006 1:43:53 PM PDT by JLS
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To: Howlin
For weeks, defense attorneys have stood in front of TV cameras and granted countless interviews to eagerly pronounce the innocence of Duke University lacrosse players accused of rape.

Meanwhile, the man charged with prosecuting the case has remained largely silent, apparently even to those defense attorneys.

I am speechless.

Do these people really think we are that stupid????? I am so mad about those 2 paragraphs, I cannot get past them.

110 posted on 05/16/2006 1:45:58 PM PDT by Protect the Bill of Rights
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To: GAgal

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/main/index.cgi?7580

Number 5 is so good I am going to post all of it--so much of it affirms things we have said.
Damn, we are smart!



Legal Response #5 5/15/2006
I am a professor of law and I divide my time between the University of Maryland School of Law and a graduate program in legal and ethical studies at the University of Baltimore. Criminal law is one of my teaching interests. Before I began teaching, I worked in the Criminal Appeals Division of the Maryland Attorney General's office. I have been posting on the bulletin board under the name Thurber Whyte. You already have a crack legal team assembled there and I hope some of them will weigh in here as well.

You ask about Mr. Elmostafa's arrest and Nifong's conduct generally. As to Mr. Elmostafa's situation, a warrant is an order to all peace officers to take some particular action. They have an affirmative duty to obey that order. The claim by police that they were just doing their duty by executing the warrant ordinarily would be quite plausible.

However both the timing and circumstances make are suspicious and do seem to indicate that the warrant was executed to at least discredit Mr. Elmostafa or, worse, to intimidate him.

First, it is true that police do routine background checks on witnesses to see who they are dealing with. However, Mr. Elmostafa has been known to police for quite some time and was interviewed by them shortly after his account of Seligmann's cab ride was published. The police would have or should have discovered his outstanding warrant at that time. If duty we calling them, it would have done so at that time, not several weeks later. Second, it is also probably not a coincidence that his arrest occurred on the very same day that the Nifong and/or the police leaked information about results of the second dna test. The theme for Thursday seemed to be 'The Empire Strikes Back.�

I also find it suspicious that Mr. Elmostafa was arrested by not one, but two persons identified as the same detectives working on the lacrosse case. Serving a warrant does not require any investigation and is usually done by ordinary police officers or, in many jurisdictions, sheriff's deputies. I sincerely doubt that these detectives were trying to finally get to the bottom of The Great Hecht's Shoplifting Caper of 2003.

Naturalized citizens and resident aliens are particularly vulnerable to threats of prosecution. Conviction, even for a minor offense is grounds for loss of citizenship and deportation. Thus, the police have even more leverage to use on Mr. Elmostafa.

Attempting to alter the testimony of a potential witness or discouraging a witness from appearing at trial is obstruction of justice. If Mr. Elmostafa's account is accurate, that the investigators asked him if he had anything new to say about the lacrosse case and when he said 'no,� took him to the magistate, then the police detectives involved committed a felony.

Finally, I would like to know what kind of warrant this was. If this was a bench warrant for failure to appear in court at the appointed date, then it might very plausibly have gone unnoticed or unacted upon. However, if this warrant was issued at the outset of the case and not executed because the police investigated the matter and, on the basis of their investigation, decided that Mr. Elmostafa was not in any way complicit with the person who did the shoplifting, then their failure to execute the warrant was a conscious decision on their part. If so, that decision would make a mockery of their claim that they were doing their duty by executing the warrant. Because all charges in the case were resolved against the principals, I suspect that the latter scenario was the case. I would very much like to see what is in the police report. If the police had decided not to pursue charges against Mr. Elmostafa or execute the warrant, that fact would have been indicated in the report and would have been seen by the police when they did their background check.

As to Nifong's conduct generally, it is both unethical and unprofessional. Because you are soliciting legal opinion, I want everyone to know that not only are you correct in assuming the worst, but that the more you know the worse Nifong's conduct appears.

Without getting into too detailed of a bill of particulars, he has violated, not one but likely, several ethical rules. There is little doubt at this point as to his egregious and systematic violation of the rule against publicly commenting on matters likely to be tried in court. Not only is he tainting the jury pool by trying the case in the media, he is using the opportunity to do so to make arguments to the jury pool that he could not make in court. Calling the defendants 'hooligans,� suggesting that innocent people do not need lawyers and inviting the inference of guilt from the silence of the accused are things that would bring instant and vigorous rebuke if uttered in open court and could potentially be grounds for mistrial or contempt of court.

The preamble to the rules of ethics used in North Carolina states that Lawyers should 'cultivate knowledge of the law beyond its use for clients, employ that knowledge in reform of the law, and work to strengthen legal education.� Although this is established as an ideal rather than a rule, it, nevertheless, provides another lens through which to these arguments. By making these sorts of arguments and generally acting as a demagogue, Nifong has done the opposite. He has spread misinformation about the law and sought to undermine its most cherished values, such as the equality of all persons before the law, the right to and importance of assistance of counsel and that the accused should be tried in a manner that respects their fundamental rights. Such statements also bring the profession into disrepute.

How serious are these matters? I handled a case on appeal where Mike Nifong's counterpart in a local county referred to the defendants as 'mutts� (as in Mutt and Jeff) in closing argument. This was fairly innocuous, but still out of bounds. I conceded the wrongfulness of this type of argument, but the case was still a clear winner for the state because the error was harmless given the overwhelming evidence of guilt. Ordinarily a case like this would be submitted on brief without argument. However, the Chief Judge of the Maryland Court of Special Appeals scheduled the case for oral argument and assigned it to his own panel so he could personally yell at me as the representative of the state and let me know that, even though the conviction had to be affirmed in that particular case, he would not tolerate this sort of conduct. There was no other argument or any questions from the panel. It was that important to the Chief Judge. I called the state's attorney and ! tell him that the Chief Judge had a message for him.

Nifong also likely violated the rule against directly contacting persons represented by counsel when police went to interview the team members at their dorm. A basic legal principle is that a person cannot do through the use of an agent what he himself cannot do personally. Caselaw I have seen suggests that this is the principal applied where a prosecutor uses or encourages police to question suspects represented by counsel. The circumstances suggest that Nifong sent officers to get information he desperately needed in order to go forward with his indictments. Indeed, Nifong himself has been quick to tell us that he is the one directing the investigation, not police. This conduct is a serious matter and typically leads to reprimand or sanction in the state where I live.

Nifong, also likely violated the rule that requires prosecutors to pursue charges only were they personally believe that the accused has committed a crime and not simply because they believe they can secure a conviction. Many prosecutors try to avoid this duty by being agnostic or simply not thinking about it. However, Nifong went beyond that and took a position of willful ignorance by refusing to consider or even look at the exculpatory evidence presented to him by defense attorneys. Willful ignorance is not a defense to any guilty act and, even if the defendants did commit a rape, Nifong violated the rule by consciously shielding himself from any evidence that might have made him think twice about his decision to prosecute.

The worst part about Nifong's unethical conduct is that he knows better and that the conduct is willful. When called on these matters, he becomes indignant and treats them as his entitlement.

Mike Nifong also comes up woefully short in terms of his professionalism. At the outset, he stated that this case was so important to him that he was assigning it to himself. Published reports seem to indicate that Nifong had a solid reputation as an effective advocate. The operative word there is 'had.� Nifong has not tried a felony case in several years. Moreover, rape cases are extremely tricky to try. Without getting into a lot of detail, juries hate hearing rape cases involving acquaintances and, worse are prone to apply their own questionable standards rather than the legal ones they are told to apply in order to acquit. Downtown juries are usually the worst in this regard. Having experience trying rape cases is absolutely vital. Most district attorney's offices in a city the size of Durham would have one or two prosecutors who specialize in sexual crimes. If Nifong were truly serious about winning this case and, according to his lights, seeing justice ! done, he would never in one million years have assigned this case to himself.

Nifong was hasty in bringing the indictments. His timetable for doing so was apparently driven entirely by his election needs. The police still have not completed their investigation. As I write, the second round of dna tests have just been returned. First, he ordered the police to violate their own standards for photo identifications and those accepted as critical for proper identification just so he could generate some names to insert in his bill of indictment rather than wait for other evidence. Second, if other evidence does identify another person or persons who can be tried, Nifong has potentially undermined that case by linking it to the fortunes of cases cases against two men who may have solid alibis.

I do not believe that Nifong is an incompetent attorney. However, he has manifested an inclination to take risks in order to advance his own interests and, in doing so, to act in a manner contrary to the interests of the community that he is purporting to serve.

Remember when I told you that rape cases are difficult to try? One of the reasons is that jurors often come to court with the belief that women typically make false allegations for a variety of reasons, particularly vindictiveness. If at the end of this process, the complaint in this case does turn out to be false, Nifong has set public attitudes towards rape back 50 years by embracing the media attention that came with the case rather than quietly getting all of the facts and filtering this case out of the system.

In my time, I have worked with or had the opportunity to observe local prosecutors of varying levels of competence. Many of them were extremely zealous advocates. However, the overwhelming majority of them were highly ethical and professional in their outlook and approach to their work and generally good folks. I say that not because I worked on the prosecution side. If anything, I have an extremely low tolerance for this sort of foolishness because, as an appellate attorney, I was the one who had to try and clean up after inept or overreaching prosecutors. Aside from a couple of prosecutors in the federal system, I have never heard of anyone as unethical and venal as Mike Nifong.

I hasten to add that I am not expressing an opinion at this point as to the guilt or innocence of those accused or any others likely to be indicted. The evidence that has been made public so far does indeed caste serious doubt on the allegations. However, the prosecution may have more evidence that they are not disclosing at the moment. The actual truth cannot be determined until all facts are known and weighed together at trial. Your query was about Nifong's conduct. Of that I am quite certain, however.

Jason Trumpbour, Trinity 88, Law 91


111 posted on 05/16/2006 2:07:17 PM PDT by Protect the Bill of Rights
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To: GAgal

Thanks.
Nifong really is a pussy. And pussies with power are truly frightful.


112 posted on 05/16/2006 2:10:05 PM PDT by Mad-Margaret
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To: FlowJo

I had a different impression.
Mama looks like she has had a hard, hard life. She is in her 60's and looks 20 years older than my Mama who is 71.

I think she got there by way of the fist or the bottle. I did feel sorry for her. She works in a paper mill and Dad does not work. Who looked healthier?

Travis looked as mean as a snake to me. I looked at his face & his affect and had to trouble believing his fist ruled that house.


113 posted on 05/16/2006 2:17:28 PM PDT by Protect the Bill of Rights
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To: twigs

I must be hard hearted....Am I the only one who thinks the father could be violent?


114 posted on 05/16/2006 2:27:46 PM PDT by Protect the Bill of Rights
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To: Protect the Bill of Rights; All

Interesting.....I just saw them once and would love to see the interview again so I could pay attention to some of the things everyone here has brought up.


115 posted on 05/16/2006 2:28:04 PM PDT by FlowJo
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To: FlowJo

I had to pull it up
Go to:
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml

then put Duke in the search box

Parents video is #8 in the result list.

BTW- about 1 minute into the video,look at Travis's right pocket--see if that looks like the handle of a pistol.


116 posted on 05/16/2006 2:39:32 PM PDT by Protect the Bill of Rights
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To: Protect the Bill of Rights
Thanks so much! The answer to your question about the right pocket, it sure does look like a gun. Another observation, Travis can't look into the eyes of the reporter, he keeps looking down to the ground. The mama (I feel sorry for her) seems sincere. The african/american writer/activist is a jerk. His comments in the end, "This must go to trial, the african/american community is watching. We want justice because the justice system has failed us." I thought that O.J. was payback. Now we need to hang these boys to pay for our sins??? This is obscene! Also, it is fine with the black community to go to the house where the boys lived and point fingers and hold a rally? They have already been convicted by these people. Finally, I love all the church folks praying and all, but they don't seem to care a bit that this stripper takes her clothes off in front of men. She's a good girl!
117 posted on 05/16/2006 3:02:11 PM PDT by FlowJo
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To: JLS

Rape shield laws do not trump the U.S. Constitution

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=US&navby=case&vol=000&invol=04-1327

The defense will get it in. No question about it. this is especially true because she had sex with someone very close to the time she alleges she was raped. He sexual history for six months or six years ago might be excluded, but not sexual activity within a day or two of the alleged incident.


118 posted on 05/16/2006 3:04:55 PM PDT by connectthedots
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To: connectthedots

That case does not seem relevant to me.

1. In the current case a woman is claiming rape and named certain people.

2. Sex that she has had with others is generally not germane.

3. Only if the DA introduces injuries that might have come from sex, ie the SANE report, will this come in in my view.

Are you saying a judge will say that the defense can claim this was a case of mistaken identity and she was really raped by her boyfriend? I doubt it UNLESS they can say she was crying rape for fear of her pimp hurting her and as the racists she is she cried rape against her white clients not her black clients? The case you linked was about claiming someone else was guilty of the crime. I am not sure how that fits in here.


119 posted on 05/16/2006 3:18:59 PM PDT by JLS
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To: JLS

You apparently don't know all that much about criminal or constitutional law.


120 posted on 05/16/2006 3:24:23 PM PDT by connectthedots
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