"COLD CASE" - TWA FLIGHT 800 Movement in D.C. on FBI cover-up

World Net Daily.com ^ | August 17, 2006 | Jack Cashill

[phoenix0468]

It's not like the plane was going mach 2 or outside the range of the stinger. Yes, it was at the limits, but definitely still within range. Also, I'm not sure that what the witnesses may have seen was some sort of flash coming off the aircraft after it exploded, and being confused later as to whether it was going up or down. Nighttime, relflections off the water, and big flashes of light can and will confuse any eyewitness. Therefore, my opinion is, if it were an attack, either an explosion on board the aircraft or very possibly a smaller plane flying into it.

[MindBender26]

You were going to tell us where in the NTSB report Boeing said the engines were producing no thrust......

[MindBender26]

You were going to tell us where in the NTSB report Boeing said the engines were producing no thrust......

[Swordmaker]

You were going to tell us where in the NTSB report Boeing said the engines were producing no thrust......

How long did TWA-800 remain in the air after the initiating event?

[Swordmaker]

I found some other people who have "Done the Math" including this one which, although he used a few different assumptions than did I, came up with the close to the same results I did... Stall within 2-4 seconds. It's heavy reading and the math is a bit hard to follow because it is all in text... but I find nothing wrong with his methodology. He concluded the Center of Gravity moved ~21 feet aft ward while I was more conservative, moving it only 12 feet (He did several models and one was 14 feet). The reason for the difference is that he concluded the lost nose weighed ~130,000 lbs while I used the amount Boeing calculated ~80,000 lbs.

I found one comment he made to be pertinent to your claiming a pilot would understand:

"The climb calculation will be counterintuitive for pilots, who know that they can zoom an aircraft by pulling all the way back on the yoke and letting the AOA drift up towards stall condition as the aircraft climbs. The problem is, very few pilots have pitched-up an aircraft, and fewer still are around to tell about it. The answer to the puzzle is in the swiftness of the pitch up and the lack of alpha control. The vertical velocity does not have a chance to build up very much prior to stall."

I also found this statement by a Boeing Engineer who worked on the 747:

"No aircraft as large as the B747 could have done anything but stall and descend, when confronted with the loss of its second most major aerodynamic section - the nose.

"There are two reasons for this.

"First, as others have aptly pointed out, the center of gravity would have shifted aft of the wings, causing the remaining airframe to compensate by rotating on that center to a tail down configuration.

"When that happened - as that happened - the engines would all have then gone into a compressor stall configuration, as the air would have been rushing past the inlets, causing air starvation or rarefaction in their compressor sections.

"Upon this stall configuration, there would no longer be any usable thrust, and quite likely one or more of the engines would have experienced a flame out condition, in consideration of both the current altitude, and attitude: the air at 13000 feet is nowhere as near as dense at sea level, and the recovery of a stalled engine would have required a more direct, head-on airflow, or one which benefited an increased airflow.

"The attitude alone would have slowed the airframe considerably, and have resulted in its eventual loss of altitude, simply because there was now no air under the wings. The wings are the prime surface which make an airplane fly. Merely pointing them in any particular direction will not make the airframe to which they are attached go in that direction.

"The attitude of the total airframe, in consonance with the thrust vector is what makes an airplane go in any particular direction. Depriving the airframe of that consonant quality, will lead only to failure.

"With a loss of thrust, the airframe would simply have begun to drop tail down, and proceeded to roll to one side, and have begun its descent.

"None of this mentions that the aircraft nose, having separated from the main section, would have taken all control of the engines - and every control surface - with it, and have posed an absolutely insurmountable aerodynamic quandary: Without the previous CG, and with no predetermined preset conditions governing the flight laws of the control surfaces, every aspect of flight would now be at the whim of whatever wisp of air happening upon the airframe.

"If, in the most propitious circumstances, the engines had all managed to default to a 'flight idle' condition, that is, about 30 percent thrust, there is no way on this earth that that 747 would have gone anywhere but straight ahead - assuming the ludicrous by neglecting the the extreme of air turbulence as a result of the open hole where the forward section was - or straight down."

Incidentally, I question the accuracy of your Adobe Acrobat PDF search because the word "idle" is definitely in there... once at least in Chairman Hall's opening statement where he decries "idle speculation" and another in the transcript of the CVR where the comment "idle detents" and "Check" were transcribed. However, I am not surprised that the Boeing statement about the engines reverting to idle is not in the NTSB report... there is a lot that isn't in the report. For example, Dr. Loeb's conclusion about the zoom climb being possible is in the report... but his proofs and math are not. The FBI's lab reports on the foreign bodies removed from the bodies of the passengers is singularly missing. (The FBI now claims they cannot find the reports!) The NTSB, the FBI, and the CIA have yet to release any of the data they used to make the famous zoom climb cartoons despite years of FOI lawsuits.

[Swordmaker]

Where did you ever get these 4000 fps and 2000 fps numbers. Completely bogus. Climb rates are completely driven by weight, temp, altitude, speed tradeoff (deltas) and other factors. There are conditions under which a 747 could be made to climb at a rate of 20,000 or 25,000 feet per minute for a few seconds.

Where did I get them? Boeing's web site on the 747... they are hard to find but if you persevere you can find the specs. They aren't bogus. I know about the "trade offs"... and that the figures I used are averages for altitude ranges. I could have posted the Boeing charts of altitudes and climb rates that show far more detail than any body needs, but the averages were just as useful in a discussion of this type.

By the way, you seem to have a problem with the rates.. those are feet per minute... not feet per second.

I would be interested in those "conditions under which a 747 could be made to climb at a rat of 20,000 or 25,000 feet per minute for a few seconds." Can you describe them?

[Swordmaker]

Very little credit, given the altitude at which TWA800 was flying.

The "fact" that a Manpads missile cannot reach an aircraft flying at 13,700 is a myth... a little research shows that there were Tier Two Manpads available in 1996 that could easily have hit TWA-800. Here is a post I put up

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To: Alberta's Child

More importantly . . . If a terrorist had any intention of shooting down an eastbound passenger aircraft flying out of JFK International Airport, he would not have bothered doing it at a point where the aircraft would be more than 16,000 feet overhead when he could as easily do it 25-50 miles further west where the aircraft would be flying much lower.

TWA-800 was at 13,800 feet when the Initiating Event (whether a missile or a spark in the Center Wing Tank) occured. 13,800 ft, is just at the outside range of several Russian made tripod mounted Ground to Air missiles.

A tripod mounted Mistral MANPAD missile, complete, ready to fire, was found set up and abandoned on a country road in Maryland two years before the TWA-800 disaster:

October 11, 1994 Associated Press report datelined 09/28 23:55 EDT V0009 (1994)
A State bomb squad destroyed a French-made surface to air rocket launcher armed with a live missile and explosives ....along a rural roadside in Westminster, Maryland.

The FBI and NTSB stated that there are no Man portable missiles that are capable of reaching that altitude... this is false. There are many that can.

The French made Mistral Missile is capable of reaching TWA-800s altitude (4-6km range) and is a fire and forget infra-red heat seeker. The Mistral is used in the militaries of 28 nations including several islamic nations. It is only one of several that have the range to reach TWA-800's altitude and still be effective.

The Mistral missile uses a two stage rocket propellant. The first stage ejects the missile from the launcher and spins the missile to provide stability in flight. The sustainer motor accelerates the missile to supersonic speed towards the target. The missile is equipped with an infra-red homing head supplied by SAT and based on an indium arsenide detector array operating in the 3 to 5 micron band of the infra-red spectrum. The missile has a 3kg high explosive warhead loaded with tungsten balls. The warhead is fitted with contact and proximity fuses.

Strangely, the coronor reported many of the bodies of the TWA-800 victims had small metallic balls in them...

The Mistral is a Tier 1 Manpad... but Tier 2 Manpads are also available. A Tier 2 Manpad could easily reach TWA-800 and knock it out of the sky:

Every one of the red dots on the plot is a location where a Tier Two Manpads could launch and hit an aircraft taking no evasive action at ~13,700 feet of altitude traveling at 370 knots.

In addition, at least 11 other airline crews reported missiles or missile like objects in near misses of their flights near Long Island in the months before and after TWA-800.

145 posted on 07/18/2006 9:07:08 PM PDT by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE is "AAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE!")

[Swordmaker]

More importantly . . . If a terrorist had any intention of shooting down an eastbound passenger aircraft flying out of JFK International Airport, he would not have bothered doing it at a point where the aircraft would be more than 16,000 feet overhead when he could as easily do it 25-50 miles further west where the aircraft would be flying much lower.

[A Balrog of Morgoth]

The "fact" that a Manpads missile cannot reach an aircraft flying at 13,700 is a myth... a little research shows that there were Tier Two Manpads available in 1996 that could easily have hit TWA-800.

Actually, a little research shows that nothing available in 1996 had a max altitude within 1,000 feet.

The French made Mistral Missile is capable of reaching TWA-800s altitude (4-6km range)

You're confused. The maximum range of the mistral is 6km. It's maximum altitude is 3km.

October 11, 1994 Associated Press report datelined 09/28 23:55 EDT V0009 (1994) A State bomb squad destroyed a French-made surface to air rocket launcher armed with a live missile and explosives ....along a rural roadside in Westminster, Maryland.

You are gonna have to do a little better then a cut-n-paste from one of four conspiracy websites. And you might want to check your citation. It references a French anti-tank missile. Which might explain the tripod.

In addition, at least 11 other airline crews reported missiles or missile like objects in near misses of their flights near Long Island in the months before and after TWA-800.

Did you get that from the same conspiracy site you pulled your AP citation?

Strangely, the coronor reported many of the bodies of the TWA-800 victims had small metallic balls in them...

Strangely, once again, we're just going to have to take your word for it. Now the coroners are in on the coverup as well? This thing is just growing exponentially.

The Mistral is a Tier 1 Manpad... but Tier 2 Manpads are also available. A Tier 2 Manpad could easily reach TWA-800 and knock it out of the sky:

The Mistral entered production in 1989. It's a Tier 2. Of course, you're having problems telling the difference between range and altitude.....

Every one of the red dots on the plot is a location where a Tier Two Manpads could launch and hit an aircraft taking no evasive action at ~13,700 feet of altitude traveling at 370 knots.

Every one of the red dots on the plot is a location where no MANPAD available in 1996 could hit anything at an altitude of 13,700 feet.

[A Balrog of Morgoth]

It's not like the plane was going mach 2 or outside the range of the stinger. Yes, it was at the limits, but definitely still within range.

It's the altitude that's the problem here, not the range.

[Swordmaker]

Did you get that from the same conspiracy site you pulled your AP citation?

More ad hominem argument... a logical fallacy

I know who the founding members of ARAP are... and I know who my father was... I don't know who you and Mindbender26 are.

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Associated Retired Aviation Professionals
Post Office Box 90, Clements, Md 20524; USA
E-Mail: ARAP
Membership

Admiral Thomas Moorer USN/(Deceased)
Admiral Moorer, is the former Chairman of the JointChief's of Staff
and the most Senior Retired Military Officer in the Group

Brig. General Ben Partin, USAF/Ret
General Partin was instrumental in developing continious rod-missile systems.

CMDR. William S. Donaldson USN/(Deceased)
Commander Donaldson is the former Officer-in-Charge of Carrier Battle Groups Air Traffic Control Center,
an air crash investigator and the author of the Interim Report to Congress on TWA Flight 800

Captain Al Mundo TWA/Ret
Captain Mundo is a retired TWA Pilot

Captain Howard Mann TWA/Ret
Captain Mann is a former TWA Pilot, an air crash investigator, participating in four air crash
investigations during his career and the most senior retired commercial pilot in the group.

Major Fred Meyer NYANG/Ret
Major Meyer is a decorated Vietnam Pilot and an eyewitness to the downing of TWA Flight 800.

Rear Admiral Mark Hill, USN/Ret
Admiral Hill, is the former Commanding Officer ofthe USS Independence and an Air Crash Investigator.

Cmdr. Bruce Valley, UNS/Ret
Cmdr. Valley is a retired Naval Aviator and currently President of GlobNet, Inc.

Dr. Gregory A. Harrison, P.E.
Dr. Harrison is a professional Fire Safety Enginneer with a Phd. in Safety Engineering.
He has extensive experience in fire investigations, flammable liquids and explosions.
Dr. Harrison is court qualified to testify on forensics in Md/VA/DC/NJ/PA/LA/TX and FLA.

Back to Flight 800 Main Page

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These are not wild eyed conspiracy theorists... they are well qualified people who, like me, found something suspicious in the TWA-800 investigation. Their experience provides a degree of confidence in their opinions about aircraft, military ordnance, and air crash investigation. They document their information.

I have independently calculated the physics of the flight... and found it confirmed by work done by others such as Dr. Thomas Stallcup (Physics). I provide links and examples of the math involved. I see you and mindbender26 making assertions ex-cathedra but little or no documentation to back up your claims... and certainly no math.

[MindBender26]

I'm sorry, but I'm simply not going to be beggared into an ongoing discussion where you do not understand the fundamental foundations of the issues involved.

I'm not attacking you personally, but you are making a classic mistake of logic. You are accepting a conclusion, looking for often disconnected facts to support that conclusion, and ignoring any fact that goes against. or even worse, disproves your conclusion.

In addition, I'm sorry, but you do not have the base of engineering or aviation knowledge to draw conclusions in this matter. I'll give you an example.

You quote rate of climb figures. Those are normal cruise-climb ROC numbers. They in no way describe a max effort climb, or take into account what the A/C could achieve in an atypical situation. They are simply target figures often used in performance and range/speed/distance projections, not engineering limits by any means.

Finally, the quotes from some so-called (but always unnamed "Washington Insider" or "some Boeing engineer." In 62 years of life, I have found such quotes to be made up or so greatly exaggerated as to be a distortion of facts by a quantum order of merit about 99.99% of the time. It's all very much like the "I know a guy who knows a guy whose brother-in-law worked for a guy who knew a woman who had the plans for the 100mpg carberatur, but GM, Ford and Exxon all threatened her with death if she ever revealed them" sort of BS.

Finally, I think it's very good that you are interested in this issue. We need informed, solid reasoning on issues such as this. Take some time. Take a few aeronautical engineering courses at a local college or university. Take a private pilot's ground course through a local flight school or FBO.

If, after you have the solid engineering and aviation knowledge about htis issue, then make money writing a book on this issue. The current ones are so devoid of facts or engineering/aviation basis that they are worthless, and cruelly laughed pay by pilots.

A physician friend who flies his own Citation II SP was interested in this issue, so he tried to read a few books claiming that the A/C was shot down. He never got past chapter three in anyone of them because they had all made such basis engineerng and fact errors. A simply one would be one prominent authors claim that on the night in question W-105 was "active" and thereby closed to aircraft. He didn't know, or want to know that Warning Areas such as W-105 never close an area to airdraft. Prohibited and Restricted airspace does that, but Warning areas are simply areas where increased vigilence of other traffic is suggested.

Dr. Phillips comment about the field of "experts" surrounding this reminded him of those "Philipine Pshchic Surgeons" who make a few hand covescover and depressing a patient's abdomen, puch into the soft large intestine area and claim to remove cangerous growths without ever leaving a scar. Of course, it's slight of hand magic that fools most onlookers, but every physician knows is BS from the moment they see the tape.

Be smart. Get an education in what really matters in an engineering evaluation aft nastire. Then write a great-selling book debunking the other phony books that make their con men authors millions. all on the back of the dead passengers who are the true tragic figures here.

This my last post on this issue, because trying to teach some logic to the "True Believers" is like tryimg to trash a pig to dance on two legs. All it goes in waste your time, frustrate you, an-danger the pig..

Sincerely, Good luck

[A Balrog of Morgoth]

More ad hominem argument... a logical fallacy

Nice try. Unfortunately, questioning a debater's inability to provide the wire service article and coroner's report he cites is not an ad hominem.

I see you and mindbender26 making assertions ex-cathedra but little or no documentation to back up your claims... and certainly no math.

We're not the ones trying to debunk a ten year old, high profile aircraft accident investigation. You are. Merely showing that an event was physically (and remotely) possible is only the first step you must take. And one hardly needs much math to determine that a missile can't hit a target above the missile's maximum altitude. Unless one uses the missile's max range as its altitude. Which is an odd sort of math

And speaking of math, we haven't even touched on the "math" involved in making a coverup this big happen. Or why such a coverup would take place.

[AnimalLover]

Did anyone happen to read Mr. Cashill's article today?

CNN and the disappearing zoom climb

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/printer-friendly.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51661

[AnimalLover]

NEVER FORGET


I would like to know who changed the Topics and Keywords
in my original post?

[ntnychik]

Have you read Peter Lance's book, Coverup?
It's a must-read for understanding Flight 800's destruction.

[AnimalLover]

Have you read Peter Lance's book, Coverup?

Thanks for the head's up - I hadn't heard of that particular book.

[ovrtaxt]

No, but thanks for the info. I just read the blurb about it on Amazon- published in 94, I guess it was too early to include info about Able Danger. But it all fits together.

[AnimalLover]

In your Post 135 you stated


Have you read Peter Lance's book, Coverup?
It's a must-read for understanding Flight 800's destruction


Strangest thing - look what showed up on World Net Daily
August 31

Burying the mistakes of 9/11
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51757