Apple CEO lambasts teacher unions

Austin, Texas, Star-Telegram ^ | 02/16/2007 | April Castro

[Swordmaker]

Could be his Prostate Cancer diagnosis that's changed his reality.

Actually, it was even worse... it was Pancreatic Cancer... very rare and usually fatal. He apparently did win the battle.

[gas0linealley]

democrat, or republican, Jobs is right. the schools are screwed up, and the unions as a whole have outlived their usefulness.

What do you think made unions usefull?

[gas0linealley]

If it were easier to fire teachers, what guarantee would there be that the best would be retained? Who would judge them, and on what basis? How many good, experienced, but higher paid older teachers would be fired to make way for less costly, less experienced, and untested beginners?

[television is just wrong]

well, not a lot.

[gas0linealley]

Not a lot? You wrote that unions have outlived their usefulness, but you can't say what that usefulness was, other than: "Not a lot".

Not much in your hand.

[television is just wrong]

just that they serve no useful purpose.

at one time they may have, better working conditions, etc, but they are useless, nothing more than political machines.

Not sure that they really ever were worth the dues the workers paid in for representation.

[gas0linealley]

Do you think that working conditions, that are now enjoyed in the US, just... happened? A study of history will reveal that they were fought for, by organized labor.

Your reasoning reminds me of a man who hired a security guard to stop the thievery that was going on at his property. The thievery stopped, so he fired the guard.

[television is just wrong]

oh, come on, it is getting late, I'm, not in the mood to argue.
Whatever.

[Barney59]

Thanks for the clarification AND good news on his progress!

B59

[SunkenCiv]

http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a395a075c1aab.htm#23

[SoCal Pubbie]

"Do you think that working conditions, that are now enjoyed in the US, just... happened? A study of history will reveal that they were fought for, by organized labor."

WRONG! Please cite any proof of your statement so I can shot it down.

[SoCal Pubbie]

I'll save you the trouble. Aside from the 8 hour work day, which unions fought for since the early 1800's in Britain, few if any "benefits" were the result of unions.

The 40 hour work week and the concept of a minimum wage began with Henry Ford. Overtime pay was a creation of the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938, as was the elimination of child labor. Medical coverage began as a way for employers to circumvent government wage regulations during WWII.

Now, some credit can go for unions demanding paid holidays, however even non union employees almost universally get normal paid holidays. Unions are more know for demanding company killing clauses like trying to keep firemen on locomotives long after diesels were introduced, and the firebox was long gone.

[gas0linealley]

You must think that Congress was in a gift giving mood one day and decided to bestow gifts on American workers, things of which the workers themselves had never dreamed.

Had it not been for the political power of unions, Congress would not have given working conditions a second thought.

As far as your example of locomotives is concerned, there were good reasons to have two men in the engine, that had nothing to do with feeding a boiler.

[SoCal Pubbie]

"You must think that Congress was in a gift giving mood one day ...

Uh, no. First, let's strike off medical benefits, that had nothing to do with Unions and only relates to Congress at all in a tangential way, as in going around it.

Second, a shorter work day. Yes, unions fought for it. For their own members only. The changing conditions of the industrial revolution drove a general demand in society at large for a shorter working day. The United Mine Workers won an eight hour day for their workers in 1898 but Ford's still worked nine as late as 1914 when Henry Ford HIMSELF, without a union, raised pay and shortened hours to keep better workers. This is a phenomenon that would have occurred with or without Unions. Better companies would find success with better employees making higher wages and working fewer hour more efficiently.

Third, paid holidays. Yes, Unions fought for them. They always fight for less work and more pay. But paid holidays are, and have been, almost universal. I've never belonged to a Union and I get them off too. Or I used to. I work for myself now.

Fourth, child labor was outlawed not because of Unions but because the Great Depression had made people so desperate for work that adults would work for child wages rather than starve.

Finally, you should go back a read a little about Unions and the railroads. The 1937 Diesel Agreement specified a fireman on every locomotive over 90,000 pounds. If the reasons to keep a fireman were so good, why would the extra weight matter, and why had the Union ignored streetcars and light rail locos before then? Why did railroads have to permanently attach extra diesel units rather than use couplers? To stave off Union demands that each B unit, though controlled in the A cab, was a separate locomotive. That would have meant EIGHT engineers and firemen in a four diesel lash up in place of the two employees in the Mallet the diesels replaced.

Now why, a few years later, did the Unions start demanding TWO engineers and TWO firemen in each unit? Feather bedding, of course, which the Unions excel at. It took TWENTY SEVEN years for the fight to end with a Supreme Court decision in March 1963.

"Since the original 1937 agreement, four fact-finding boards and a presidential commission had studied the request for an extra fireman. All had found no need for one fireman on a diesel, let alone two."

- Professor Maury Klein

If the reasons were so good how come no one screams for them now?

[gas0linealley]

Strike off medical benefits? My experience is that, in general, organized workers get them, while other do not.

As for unions' fighting for improvements for their own members only, what do you expect? We pay our dues and expect our unions' staff to work for us, not for those who don't join us.

You brought up shorter work days and paid holidays and then admitted that union workers were the first to get them. Do you think that nonunion employers would have felt pressure to follow suit if it hadn't been for the precedent established by unions? Not very likely.

Child labor existed long before the Great Depression.

Why would locomotive weight matter? Because the bigger engines are used to pull passenger and freight trains on mainline service, unlike the yard and local duties performed by smaller engines.

In mainline service it is imperative that the trains keep rolling and adhere to timetables, yet, as with operating an aircraft, there must be provision made for the operator to attend to bodily needs, such as taking food, having a nap, or using a toilet, therefore an engineer needs a helper, just as a pilot does. Furthermore, there are many things, both in the cab, and on the road, and on the train, which need attending, and two are more able to handle all the details than one.

As for attaching locomotives and more crew members, it comes down to "give them an inch and they'll take a mile", and that works both ways. Or hadn't you noticed?

[SoCal Pubbie]

"Strike off medical benefits? My experience is that, in general, organized workers get them, while other do not."

You should get out more.

"As for unions' fighting for improvements for their own members only, what do you expect? We pay our dues and expect our unions' staff to work for us, not for those who don't join us."

Then don't credit Unions with giving all of us the benefits.

"You brought up shorter work days and paid holidays and then admitted that union workers were the first to get them. Do you think that nonunion employers would have felt pressure to follow suit if it hadn't been for the precedent established by unions? Not very likely."

Yes, they would have.

"On January 5, 1914, the Ford Motor Company took the radical step of doubling pay to $5 a day, and cut shifts from nine hours to an eight hour day, moves that were not popular with rival companies, although seeing the increase in Ford's productivity, most soon followed suit."

-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_hour_day

As I wrote, not only Unions but society at large pushed for better working conditions. Look up the Progressive Movement. Lots of folks besides Unions in there. In fact, in the 1800's the leadership of the Knights of Labor, under Terence V. Powderly, rejected appeals to join the eight hour movement as a whole.

"Child labor existed long before the Great Depression."

Yes, some State laws regulated child labor, but it was not banned nationwide until 1937.

"Why would locomotive weight matter? Because the bigger engines are used to pull passenger and freight trains on mainline service, unlike the yard and local duties performed by smaller engines."

In mainline service it is imperative that the trains keep rolling and adhere to timetables, yet, as with operating an aircraft, there must be provision made for the operator to attend to bodily needs, such as taking food, having a nap, or using a toilet, therefore an engineer needs a helper, just as a pilot does. Furthermore, there are many things, both in the cab, and on the road, and on the train, which need attending, and two are more able to handle all the details than one."

Baloney. The Unions wanted to keep to the same 8 hour or 100 mile restriction before changing crews or paying overtime, despite the fact that a diesel could now make four times as many miles in the same time. There was LESS things to attend to after dieselization, not more. Firemen were not, and are not needed in a modern locomotive. They haven't had them in at least forty years and it's not a problem.

"As for attaching locomotives and more crew members, it comes down to "give them an inch and they'll take a mile", and that works both ways. Or hadn't you noticed? "

Ask the members of United Auto Workers Local 5 working for Studebaker. Oh, that's right, there aren't any.

[gas0linealley]

"On January 5, 1914, the Ford Motor Company took the radical step of doubling pay to $5 a day, and cut shifts from nine hours to an eight hour day, moves that were not popular with rival companies, although seeing the increase in Ford's productivity, most soon followed suit."

Better pay and fewer hours equals greater productivity. Thank you for supporting organized labor's claim.

[SoCal Pubbie]

Boy, you're a real cherry picker. I can always tell when the other guy doesn't have much ammo in his argument. You ignore half the factual information, and distort the rest.

That's not organized labor's claim, or their aim. Unions are after more pay and LESS output, not more productivity. Hence their demands to limit automation, and keep outdated job rules like fireman and more longshoreman than needed long past their usefulness.

[gas0linealley]

I've never belonged to a Union and I get them off too. Or I used to. I work for myself now.

There's nothing like experience, and when it comes to experience, I've got you beat. I've worked nonunion, and union, for others, and for myself. My experience is that employees do much better when they are organized, and there are plenty of facts to back that up. However, you aren't interested in facts, you've obviously got an agenda, an antiunion agenda.

Well, bring it on. Like I said, thanks for supporting organized labor's claims.

[SoCal Pubbie]

You've not really answered any of the facts. Again, of all the benefits that supposedly we owe thanks to the Unions for, perhaps we can give a nod to the eight hour work day, and that's about it.

BTW, you have no idea what my experience is.