What if the Persians would have conquered Arabia? [Vanity]

me ^ | 3/14/07 | me

[muawiyah]

They were in the French refugia.

[freedom44]

The "roots" of Persians are indo-european Aryans. Iraqis are semitic Arabs from Arabia. You have a difficult time telling the difference that is your opinion but then there is an issue.

[muawiyah]

So, a bunch of semitic speakers got conquered by Persians.

[freedom44]

No the Persian Empire allowed all conquered land to keep their culture, ethnicity, heritage, background. That is why the Empire was so vast and divided. Elected Satraps were sent to various regions including Babylonia. Persia managed to stay in modern day Iran and keep its foundations until post-1979 came along.

[PzLdr]

Logistics, especially for a predominantly cavalry Army would have been a nightmare for the Persians. The Byzantines faced the same problem when the Moslems started attacking them. They couldn't pursue them. The key was the camel, and the scacity of water.

Then, if Persia was anything like Rome, they would have crunched the numbers, to see if projected revenues warranted the costs. Arabia was nothing, just some minor trade routes. Not worth it.

Now if Mongke hadn't died when he did in China...

[RightWhale]

The Arabs were Yemenis then and occupied the coastal region of the Arabian penninsula. They were mostly involved in trade by ship between Ethiopia/Rome and India. There was nothing in the Arabian desert to conquer and the Yemenis were too much trouble even then.

[BlackVeil]

Saddam, when the light was at just the right angle, was pretty clearly a Mongolian descendant ~ recall that the Mongols conquered Baghdad ..

I think you are right in that. Sadaam - and others from the area - still show that ethnic heritage.

However, Freedom44 is totally right, IMO, in the ethnic appearance of Persians. They have a set of features which goes all the way back to the profiles on ancient monuments. Big eyes and big ears - fair skin.

Iranians is multi-ethnic, not all are Persians, of course, and Kurds, Arabic Iranians, etc., look quite different.

One can usually tell an Iranian Shia clergyman, from an Arab Shia, immediately, before he opens his mouth, just by looking at him, even though the robes they wear are uniform.

However, it is not always a guide to nationality, because the Persians have been visiting southern Iraq for years, practically made it their colony, and kept scattering their genetic material around.

Hakim is from a Persian Iraqi family look at his face. He has the typical features that Freedom was talking about - fair skin, and a nose you could hang your hat on.

:

Contrast with Sadr and Nasrallah, who are ethnically Iraqi Arab. The complexion is different, also their face structure - the nose and cheeks:

[muawiyah]

The thing is that DNA tests have demonstrated that we are dealing with identical peoples.

Presuming political boundaries have keep the two main bodies we identify as Iraqi Arabs separate from Iranian Persians for the last ten centuries, you actually could have some difference in physical appearance caused by the so-called "founder effect" while the mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosome DNA used in so many of these ethnological studies remains the same.

The most astounding recent finding has been the close relationship among the Sa'ami living in the European Arctic, Berbers living in the deserts of North Africa and Chippewa living in the center of North America.

Other than living in tents (of remarkably similar appearance and construction), these folks really haven't shared the same culture for many centuries.

The fellows at the top of the Iranian plateau have conquered and been conquered by the fellows along the Tigris and Euphrates so many times over thousands of years it simply isn't possible to believe that they have not "forged" some serious genetic ties.

Still, let's go one step further back in time concerning the Semitic language family and the Indo-European language family.

They share a common origin with the greatest differences between the two families being vocabularies.

At the present time all such differences are being eliminated as English becomes the dominant second-language for everyone. If language ever did control ethnicity, it sure will now, and everybody will become an American and have to give up hating their neighbors for being so different (and the same).

Time for some popcorn and Coca Cola Fur Shur.

[muawiyah]

This guy, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, has that "wide" top of the head you suggest is more typical of Iranians.

On the other hand he's got the kinky North African hair, the Armenoid ears, the wispy Mongolian moustache, the Levantine nose but with a Circassion bridge, and a full Arabian beard.

Yup, these guys are really different aren't they? (Bwahahahahahaha!)

http://img.breitbart.com/images/2007/3/14/D8NSEAHO0/D8NSEAHO0.jpg

[SunkenCiv]

Thanks freedom44.

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[HungarianGypsy]

There is rumor that the Hungarians used to worship the old Persian gods (well, so did the Roman soldiers, but still). But, going by your Persian features picture I would guess the Slavic areas might be a good example. Those features are very similar to the males in my family. Especially the forehead.

[colorado tanker]

It wouldn't have mattered. Arabia was so poor and relatively unpopulated it wouldn't have added to the strength of the Persian Empire.

And the Empire fell centuries before the rise of Islam, so I can't see it would have mattered there as well. As it was, Arabia was heavily influenced by the religions of its neighbors, especially Christianity and Judaism.

[Antoninus]

First, the Persia you're describing is the Achaemenid Empire. In fact, Persia did have effective control over Arabia as late as the 6th Century AD under the Sassanid Kings. The Lakhmid Arabs under their kinglet Almoundaras at Hira in present-day Iraq were vassals of the Persians (and pagans), right up to the time of Mohammmed.

For their part, the Romans had Arab vassals as well, whom they used to counter the Persian Arabs. As the Romans and Persians battled for supremacy in Mesopotamia throughout the 6th and 7th centuries AD, the Arabs stood on the sidelines for the most part, building up their strength. When Mohammed died and his successors took up the Jihad, the Roman Empire and Persian Kingdom they attacked had bled themselves white and were in no condition to withstand the assault.

Check out this book for more about this period:

[Antoninus]

And the Empire fell centuries before the rise of Islam, so I can't see it would have mattered there as well. As it was, Arabia was heavily influenced by the religions of its neighbors, especially Christianity and Judaism.

However, many if not most Arabs before Islam were still pagans. The Lakhmids, in fact, were fairly violently pagan. For example, when Almoundaras captured the Christian Roman city of Emessa in the 520s, he sacrificed the virgins (nuns) that he found in the city to al-Uzza -- the Arabian Venus.

[Antoninus]

They were much more typical of Iranians than Reza Shah's family ~ but NONE of these guys are blue-eyed blonds with cleft chins (except I notice that one of the great-great grand-daughters seems to be fairly blond, but I bet they picked that up here!).

In Roman literature, the "fair-haired peoples" never referred to the Persians.

[freedom44]

Thanks I am going to buy it and read it.

[freedom44]

He does not look a thing like an Iranian. I can spot that from miles away. Most everyone tells me I look Italian as is common among most Iranians. As far as the blondes blue eyes. Two of my cousins have blue eyes with light brown to blonde hair and one of my cousins is wider than a ghost with bright green eyes all of them from Iran. It is quite common especially in the north.

[muawiyah]

Kurds are a conquered people who still have their ethnic identity somewhat intact. Blue eyed blonds and green eyes aren't totally rare among them.

On the other hand, although there are Kurds who are Iranian citizens, I have yet to meet a Kurd who is a Persian.

The thread is about what would have happened concerning the Persians, not the Kurds.

[muawiyah]

BTW, the Iraqis are not "True Arabs" (a term meaning folks from/in the Arabian Peninsula who spoke Arabic.

[Antoninus]

BTW, the Iraqis are not "True Arabs" (a term meaning folks from/in the Arabian Peninsula who spoke Arabic.

Are you telling me that the Lakhmid Arabs of Hira were not real Arabs and didn't speak Arabic? Are you sure of that? As far as I know, both the Lakhmid's and the pro-Roman Ghassanids who lived in the Syrian wastes were both Arabic peoples who spoke Arabic.