Posted on 06/09/2008 1:00:14 PM PDT by Borges
Melbourne, June 9: A paraplegic man was recently denied a church marriage by a bishop in Italy because he was impotent, say reports.
The 26-year-old man ultimately had to go for a civil marriage on Saturday in Viterbo.
"No bishop, no priest can celebrate a wedding when he knows of admitted impotence as it is a motive for annulment (of the marriage),'' the Australian quoted Salvatore de Ciuco, spokesman for Bishop Lorenzo Chiarinelli of Viterbo in central Italy, as telling SkyTG24 television.
The groom has been paraplegic since he was involved in a car accident, said the television report.
His fiancee was aware of his impotency, the report added.
The curate of the parish, who was banned from marrying the couple, was present at their civil ceremony.
Lack of compassion AND ridiculous grounds for denial: “grounds for annulment” doesn’t mean the marriage is void, just voidable.
Sad, sad, sad.
Fortunately the Church is not guided by emotion, but by the Holy Spirit in all things.
One of prerequisites for a valid marraige is the ability to attempt to have children, because one of the reasons for marriage is the having of children.
Yes this couple can adopt and can still receive the other sacraments but Church law is Church law.
I suppose the Roman Church would not have married Sarah and Abraham.
Genesis 2:18 and 2:24 make no mention of procreation.
Classy of the Bishop to speak out about this man’s very private problems.
Sorry, “church law” is law of man, and, in this case, the law is an ass.
I would just say “Screw you, Bishop!” and go get married in the church of a more compassionate Christian denomination.
Couple has to be open to children at time of marriage. A reason why Church is against gay ‘marriage’. This also applies to impotent senior citizens.
But very often bears no relation to God's law.
So women past menopause can not marry in the Catholic church because they cannot have children?
Ed
The Bishop doesn’t believe in miracles.
Or men who are sterile because of radiation treatments cannot marry, either, in the church...as they cannot ever father children?
This seems like an insane policy...
Ed
Then how come the Catholic Church doesn’t refuse to perform any marriage involving a woman who is clearly past natural child-bearing age?
And I suppose young women who have lost their uterus and/or ovaries to cancer are also forbidden to marry in the Catholic Church?
Odd, in a church that is based entirely on the premise of a birth to a virgin.
Lets try and be reasonable here. Neither I nor the Church are the enemy.
I realize that it does not seem compassionate, but some times you need to look at these things dispassionately.
The Church has rules for a reason, we may not agree with them, and we may not like them, but we are required to follow them.
The Catholic Church is guided by the Holy Spirit in ALL things.
And lets not attack the messenger for explaining Why we have those rules.
Does this have any validity as to Canon Law?
No, but removal of the vagina might be.
“Classy of the Bishop to speak out about this man’s very private problems.”
I’m thinking it was the couple in question that brought this to the media’s attention.
I just wanted a clarification. I know a man who was rendered sterile 25 years ago because of radiation treatments for lymphoma, and I know a woman who has never married who is approaching menopause, and I just asked for verification that these two cannot, indeed, ever get married by a Catholic priest in a Catholic church.
That’s all...just, is it indeed true that no one who cannot bear or father children can ever be married in a Catholic church by a priest?
Ed
“The Catholic Church is guided by the Holy Spirit in ALL things.”
And therein lies the disagreement. Most (or at least many) do not believe this regulation to be of the Holy Spirit and do not believe the Roman Church speaks for the Holy Spirit.
That said, I have no doubt as to your sincerity, and encourage you to hold them as St. Paul told each of us to hold such denominational-specific beliefs.
There are "Degree's of Sterility", Unless the amn has had a vasectomy, he should be permitted to get married. I do not know about the woman.
“A reason why Church is against gay ‘marriage’.”
See, I would just stick to all the passages calling sodomy an abomination, maybe read the story of Sodom and Gomorroah, and call it good.
No need to get all complex on the issue. Just gets you in trouble.
This case is different. This is impotence, not stirility.
Posted by a walking man married to a quadriplegic in a Catholic Hospital Chapel. Priest and Nuns in attendance giving it their blessings. A Baptist preacher did the officiation.
It was an act in obedience to the Will of GOD. To that I have no doubts whatsoever.
I’m sorry but I find that ridiculous. How on earth could the bishop know that this man’s impotence will never be cured? Doctors are finding new ways to help infertile couples conceive all the time, and who knows, a miracle may happen for this couple. It seems very arrogant of this bishop to assume he knows the future better than God.
So impotence means the marriage can’t be performed in a Catholic church, but inability to bear or father children (due to cancer, etc.) is okay?
Both states mean that children will never be born, what makes the one state acceptable and the other state not acceptable for marriage under Catholic auspices?
Not trying to be contentious, just trying to understand...
Ed
Impotence means that one has the inability to perform the sex act at all, meaning that the non-impotent partner is putting themselves in a situation where they will have an even greater temptation to commit adultery.
Sterility (due to cancer, surgery, etc) doesn’t affect the function of the sex act itself, just the result (conception).
That’s the difference, imo.
Thanks, Tamar.
Ed
Well then the couple could just live together as companions. It would not be a sin. But if they want to be married, bonded in wedlock it seems pathetic and stupid that the RCC can't marry then. I am a Catholic and I disagree with this teaching.
You think?
Sterility is not an impediment to marriage. Impotence is.
Whenever the Catholic Church is mentioned, people's prejudices seem to overcome their ability to use logic.
Was Abraham impotent? If so, how was Ishmael conceived?
The man in question went to the media to complain about the Church. The bishop did not discuss the matter until he was attacked in the media.
Sterility is not an impediment to marriage. Impotence is.
Sterility is not an impediment to marriage. Impotence is.
Of course he does. God has the power to render this man potent this very instant if He so desires.
And if such a sign were to occur, the bishop would be pleased to solemnize the marriage.
Impotence is an impediment, not sterility.
Because she is not thereby incapable of fulfilling the unitive purpose of marriage, even if she is involuntarily unable to fulfill the procreative.
That bishop seems to be so religious, he has lost the ability to have compassion. Sanctimonious only leads to cruelty.
Indeed.
Marriage, according to Scripture, has both a unitive and a procreative aspect.
A person who is involuntarily infertile can still participate in the unitive aspect of marriage.
A male who is permanently impotent can participate in neither aspect of marriage, and is therefore incapable of validly contracting marriage.
In other words, your definition of compassion is to choose to offend God in order to please men and their sentimental preoccupations.
Hadn't you heard that life isn't about truth? It's about feelings.
If you don't get the answer you really, really wanted when you ask a question, it's because the truth is mean.
No one here wants a God who asks sacrifices of us.
It's about faith and some it seems are lacking in it. IF a spouse married to someone who is incapable of a sex act makes them tempted then how much more so those who are required vows of celibacy for Nun's or Priest? Sex is only a part of marriage it does not make it or break it. Ever hear of the term adversity? Adversity is GOD's tempering tool to mode, shape, and strengthen persons. One believer facing adversity is strong through the Grace of GOD. Two persons facing adversity together are very strong especially I GOD is in the marriage because Three Cord Rope is not easily broken.
So which is it? Church Laws or compassion, love and mercy GOD ask of us? You, me, the Pope, nor a Protestant preacher does not know whom GOD brings together, His Divine purpose or reasoning for the union may not be known for years later. Christ warned us all of becoming obsessed with Laws while ignoring compassion, love, and mercy. I understand the situation and the answers should come from the couple and an answer from GOD himself via The Holy Spirit. Or is that a feeling also? I don't think so. The presence of the Holy Spirit and guidance can be a very Live, overcoming, and real event.
Thank you for your support, I was beginning to wonder if I was the only one on this side of this issue.
You'll notice that the bishop doesn't use phrases like "screw you", unlike yourself. He is respectful, reverent, and obedient to the matrimonial policies of his Church, the true Church which has been around for 2,000 years. The Catholic Church is the leading promoter of traditional marriage between a man and a woman, with procreation an obvious and expected outcome. The Catholic Church is in no way opposed to this man's marriage outside The Church.
and go get married in the church of a more compassionate Christian denomination.
You have your choice of 10,000 prottie me-too denominations for your ceremony so I'm sure you won't go un-hitched. Maybe you can bring in some Black Sabbath or something even more irreverent.
What do either of you know about the sacrifices a spouse to a disable person makes? What do you know about what GOD may ask of a person to do? It is not something to be taken lightly. 23 years +two weeks ago I buried my beloved first love in the prime of our lives. Two months later I found friendship with a woman raising two kids alone. The friendship grew but marriage wasn't the goal. Then came the afternoon when our world as we knew it changed forever. She nearly died while I was rushing her to the hospital. That evening her arms would not come down from her chest. The doctors told us quadriplegia and gave little hope. A week later two preachers entered her room and I was there. But there was another in there as well as the men began praying over her and laying on hands.
A very real presence we all felt a voice only I heard. "It's going to be OK". Well Praise the Lord she's gonna walk soon. Nope a few weeks passed no walking just hand movement.
Feelings? Yea I had some them I lost all feeling I had for anyone including myself. I panicked and I ran but not far or long. I went back that night and a Nun {I'm not RC BTW} talked to me and asked me what was troubling me and I tried to explain it. She said the body and mind must have rest. It worked.
But what about what I was told? What did it all mean? I loved this woman and she loved me. She was facing 4 more months in the hospital. I knew in my heart what was to be although I did not understand and acted in faith because what was being asked of me I was incapable of doing especially the rest of my life. I asked her to marry me. Not out of pity or sense of duty but rather love. I knew in my heart what was right and I knew not to do so was wrong. Running away did not work.
Man oh man we had a rough time the first year. As our time together grew so did our bond so did our GOD dependency to see us through. 14 years ago came my disability. GOD works in mysterious ways. I have the brawn she needs and she has the ability to help me when I have problems functioning mentally during attacks.
How wonderful and wise GOD is to see into our futures and place us together :>} Now I would hate to think of where I would be now had I not married my dear wife. ADVERSITY! The Potters tool to strengthen his creations. It took me over a decade to realize "It's going to be OK" and why.
Compassion does not offend God. Sanctimoniousness does offend God, just like the behavior of the Pharisees.
The problem isn’t that he can’t have children, the problem is that he is unable to have intercourse. The Church teaches that intercourse, or the ability of a couple to join together and become one flesh, is a very important part of marriage. A couple has to be open to the possibility of life, but sometimes the couple is unable to concieve. It’s impossible for this couple to have intercourse. That is why the Church will not marry them.
See my post 49. As long as they are able to have sex, they can get married.
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