SPOILERS: 'Battlestar Galactica's' Adam And Eve?

SyFy Portal ^ | 06/17/08 | MICHAEL HINMAN

[fr_freak]

Ha ha! I'm demonstrably wrong? Because some Hollywood nutjob says that he isn't making comparisons to Iraq, that must mean it's absolutely true? Well, I'm glad that you've found someone that you can believe in so completely.

The fact is that if anyone whose head wasn't full of liberal mush had written for this show, it would be unequivocably a battle of human beings against machines for survival, and there wouldn't be any of this hippie navel-gazing. For the love of Pete, the writers of this show couldn't even stand to make the Cylons the enemy! They obliterate 13 or so billion human beings, and the writers just could not allow them to be the bad guys. Darn near every episode since then has had at least one human being questioning whether the Cylons are really all bad, or whether humans have the right to kill Cylons, or whether humans really brought all of this on themselves. Good vs. evil is a concept that left-wing hippies cannot tolerate, so they rationalize everything. We can argue all day about whether the New Caprica debacle was a Nazi-France parallel, or an Iraq parallel, but the amount of other instances of this mushy-headed moral relativism permeating the show are so abundant that to deny the overall left-wing theme is to be willfully blind.

You should go back and re-read some of the sci-fi threads on FR that occurred during the original airing of the New Caprica thing. As I recall, the discussions were mostly about whether the blatant Iraq War comparison was offensive enough to make people stop watching the show. That it was an Iraq comparison was pretty much a universal given. To think that the writers of the show were completely unaware that viewers might see it that way is, of course, silly.

Enjoy the show. Just don't try to pretend that this show is some kind of sci-fi remake of "The Sands of Iwo Jima".

[MarkL]

What the hell are "Cylons" (the non-metal variety) in the first place? If the "skinjobs" (=humanoid cylons) are biologically indistinguishable from humans, as we are often told, then just how are they not humans? Remember that Baltar invented a "Cylon test", but it was a fake. There is no "Cylon test" because Cylon skinjobs are, well, identical to humans. Thus: they are humans. Show's over. So this entire series, you have to watch it pretending to be stupid enough to think there's a meaningful difference because these "Cylon" people and the other people.

Nope, that's not the case. If you remember, Baltar's test DID flag Boomer as a Cylon, but he falsified the results, and then sabotaged the machine that did the testing. Plus the Cylon babes are NOT human, unless that little glow in the dark spinal column is a normal part of human physiology of which I'm not aware... Or maybe it is normal, since nobody on the show is human, technically.

Mark

[Dr. Frank fan]

6SJ7 (and others) point out:

I seem to remember in the 'Cylon test' episode, Baltar administers the test to Boomer and it does detect her as a Cylon, but he does not reveal the results to her.

Right, but later he says he never had a test, that it was a fake, etc. At least, that was my impression. Of course, the Boomer-test episode certainly did leave the impression that the test was real (otherwise there was no drama to that episode). In which case this would just be another inconsistency, at best.

I admit I could be wrong in my recollection though. Maybe we are supposed to think that Baltar's test was real indeed. In which case, we have a different contradiction: Why didn't it flag Tigh, Tyrol and Tory? (Can't remember if Anders was with the fleet at this point) I mean, if (1) the test is real and (2) those three are supposed to be "Cylons"?

Right? There's at least one contradiction in all this somewhere.

[Dr. Frank fan]

Plus the Cylon babes are NOT human, unless that little glow in the dark spinal column is a normal part of human physiology of which I'm not aware...

Right, but this only raises the question of why they should be so hard to distinguish then that only the genius Baltar could develop a test (which involved analysis on a cellular level). Given that Cylon-people have spines that can phosphoresce under certain conditions, while human-people don't, that's a pretty obvious and noticeable difference (involving, at the very least, a radically different biochemistry in/near the spinal column) and should make for a pretty simple test. For some reason either no one in BSG is able to test for this fairly distinctive biochemical property or no one has noticed it which they would if they were looking in the slightest, i.e. dissecting Cylon corpses. Which apparently they haven't been for at least a few years. Which is unbelievably unrealistic. And again, we were told very early on that the biological difference was undetectable or very nearly so. This wouldn't be true of a humanoid species whose spine could glow red.

Some contradiction is in there somewhere.

Or maybe it is normal, since nobody on the show is human, technically.

In fact, everyone is human, IMHO. First, we now know that the BSG-people and Cylon-people are the same species: they can interbreed. The only remaining question is whether the 'people' on BSG are the same as the people (humans) on Earth. You can either answer this with an obvious yes by simply observing that they all appear to be human, or you can work within the logic of the show (the 13th tribe, prophecies etc.) to deduce that they must be the same species of people as whoever lives/lived on earth - i.e. humans.

So they are all humans. They just don't realize it (or most of them don't), instead slaved to a mindset in which some people are 'Cylons' and other people are 'humans' and most everyone on the show acts as if the two are somehow different even though (except for a few contradictory things, like the glowing spine) the biological difference is nil for all intents and purposes. In a way the show is best understood as being about extreme, idiotic blind bigotry. 95% of the conflicts and conversations wouldn't need to occur if everyone on the show (not to mention the writers) weren't so dense as to miss the obvious evidence right in front of their eyes the whole time, that the skinjobs are nothing more, or less, than (cloned) humans (in most cases humans with sociopathic tendencies), and believing otherwise cannot be justified.

p.s. I've left out one other biological difference hinted at - the Super-strength sometimes shown by Cylons in certain scenes. But I claim this is just another factoid that proves my point: there's no difference between skinjobs and humans, and when a difference is shown, it is self-contradictory and spurious. After all, if the skinjobs really do have super-strength, this would be biologically detectable either in their bones or muscles or both. (Right?) They can't be both super-strong compared to humans and be biologically (nearly) indistinguishable from humans. Yet this is what BSG asks you to believe, if you take it at face value (which, of course, I don't).

The more likely explanation here is another TV one: they gave the Cylons 'super-strength' (when they feel like it) so that they could have cool scenes involving hot chicks kicking and punching people and slamming them into walls. In other words, like so much else on BSG, this aspect of the universe doesn't make intrinsic sense - it only makes TV-ratings sense.

[6SJ7]

I admit I could be wrong in my recollection though. Maybe we are supposed to think that Baltar's test was real indeed. In which case, we have a different contradiction: Why didn't it flag Tigh, Tyrol and Tory? (Can't remember if Anders was with the fleet at this point) I mean, if (1) the test is real and (2) those three are supposed to be "Cylons"? Right? There's at least one contradiction in all this somewhere.

I think that's what makes this a great series... it's deep and it makes one think.

[Dr. Frank fan]

I think that's what makes this a great series... it's deep and it makes one think.

Making one's head hurt due to obvious repeated self-contradiction is not the same as making one think. BSG makes me think in the same sense that seeing someone write the equation 1+1=3 makes me think. In both cases what it makes me think is that the author of the nonsense is a fool or is trying to fool.

[highball]

They couldn’t get pregnant Cylon to Cylon, but they figured out they could Cylon to human with the “missing ingredient”.

True. The Cylons speculated that the missing ingredient was "love" (or at least some of them did, I have a hard time seeing the Cavils really believing that). That's why they had Boomer seduce Helo, to see if his love could supply the missing factor.

Ellen wasn’t a Cylon, that’s just Tigh’s weird hallucination to self justify his behavior. Tigh hasn’t been particularly sane since the beginning of season 3. Lost his eye, killed his wife, found out he’s a Cylon, just not good for his brain.

True enough. Pretty creepy for the viewer, as well. I wasn't initially a huge fan of the "They've been Cylons all along!" plot development, but it's really brought out some interesting aspect of Tigh's character.

Keep in mind the Final Five are different than the rest. All bets are off when it comes to who and what they can impregnate and why.

And ain't that the truth. We don't actually know anything about them.

[highball]

I admit I could be wrong in my recollection though. Maybe we are supposed to think that Baltar's test was real indeed. In which case, we have a different contradiction: Why didn't it flag Tigh, Tyrol and Tory? (Can't remember if Anders was with the fleet at this point) I mean, if (1) the test is real and (2) those three are supposed to be "Cylons"?

Baltar lied about the results, but the test was real, and worked exactly as planned.

The Final Five are different from other Cylons, in ways both obvious (only one copy known of each, outside of all existing Cylon heirarchy) and unknown (why were the other Cylons forbidden to ask or think about them?)

[highball]

The fact is that if anyone whose head wasn't full of liberal mush had written for this show, it would be unequivocably a battle of human beings against machines for survival

Possibly, but that would have been a much less interesting show.

When the show approaches brilliance, it does so largely because of the uncertainty. The characters have to make hard choices in an occassionally morally murky world. Messy. Uncomfortable. That's drama.

[Tanniker Smith]

Baltar lied about the results, but the test was real, and worked exactly as planned.

Baltar lied about Boomer. He never gave any indication of knowing that the others were Cylons. Nor did the Six in his head give him any indication that something funky was going on.

They're grasping at straws now. Seriously. Glad I'm catching up on SG1 reruns and that I only have a day and a half for Dr. Who.

[boogerbear]

You’re demonstrably wrong because anyone with a slight knowledge of Nazi occupation of France can see that the only part of the story that doesn’t parallel to WWII is the suicide bombs. Everything else, the Cylon behavior, the rest of the resistance, the fact that the webisodes were titled “Resistance”, the Vichy Trials after liberation, parallels WWII. Heck even the liberation itself had certain parallels to D-Day. You’ve got 2 things that happened in one episode, I’ve got everything else that happened in the first half of season 3.

Sorry but you’re just plain wrong again. You seem to be projecting a lot of your own mushy headedness into the show. you’re off in a never never land that’s not supported by the contents of the show nor the comments of the creators.

I know all about the threads when that season started and the people seeing Iraq were wrong then just as you are wrong now. It’s WWII.

I’m not pretending anything. You’re the one that feels a need to be angry about something so you’re pretending the show is something it is not nor has it ever been to justify your need for anger. Be angry with the show if you want, but all it proves is that you’re addicted to anger, it says absolutely nothing about the actual content of the actual show.

[boogerbear]

When Sharon shoots Adama altar says that she was an “early” test and it had been refined since then. Later talking to the Cylons he gives some indication that there never was a test. But we saw the results over his shoulder, we know the test worked, it showed red, it detected Sharon.

Anders wasn’t with the fleet. We don’t know how many other people got tested. Remember the test took 11 hours and couldn’t be done in parallel, the initial estimate to test the entire fleet was in the decades, he became president about 6 months after detecting Sharon. So even if he actually kept doing the tests (a pretty big assumption, if it’s not going to get him laid Baltar isn’t terribly interested in it, and that test was never going to get him any) at most he got a couple hundred done out of 50,000 people. And we don’t know the results, Blatar made it pretty clear the test wasn’t going to find any Cylons, which increases the possibility that he didn’t actually do any tests. I can see Baltar making the test out of scientific curiosity but once he actually found a Cylon and lied about the results there’s no reason for him to do any more tests, it worked, curiosity has been satisfied, time to move on.

[6SJ7]

I think sometimes contradictions creep into series like BSG because the series is threatened with impending cancelation. Writers then scramble to modify the timeline to squish everything in to the remaining episodes, leaving some dangling bits, rough edges, and outright contradictions. I also suspect there are changes of direction as the series plays out and the writers push off in directions even they did not originally anticipate.

Still more fun for me to watch a series like BSG than American Idol!

[fr_freak]

I’m not pretending anything. You’re the one that feels a need to be angry about something so you’re pretending the show is something it is not nor has it ever been to justify your need for anger. Be angry with the show if you want, but all it proves is that you’re addicted to anger, it says absolutely nothing about the actual content of the actual show.

Wow. Talk about projection. Does everybody who disagrees with you seem angry to you? Is that how your mind works?

I'm done debating the WWII vs Iraq thing. The other mushy-headed liberal stuff in there is blatant. I can't force you to recognize it, but any reasonable person will. Enjoy your show.

[boogerbear]

No you’re obviously angry. You use a lot of aggressive words and throw around a lot of accusations. You’re either angry or just an unpleasant person, I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt that this is a temporary thing.

You actually never did debate the WWII vs Iraq thing, you just threw around wild accusations and called various people mush headed.

[fr_freak]

When the show approaches brilliance, it does so largely because of the uncertainty. The characters have to make hard choices in an occassionally morally murky world. Messy. Uncomfortable. That's drama.

I understand that good drama often requires these things, but a lot of the moral murkiness that they use in the show is forced and artificial. There are plenty of true-to-life kinds of choices that these people would have to make without manufacturing false ones.

As an example, and I'm only using this example because it is fresh in my mind from discussion with another poster, was the Cylon occupation of New Caprica, where some of the people start using suicide bombing as a tactic against the Cylons and collaborators. This, of course, leads to a whole discussion among the colonials as to whether suicide bombing is a moral tactic, etc. The discussion consisted of a false choice: either do nothing to resist the Cylons or suicide bomb them. However, there was nothing, absolutely nothing, about the situation that made suicide bombing a more effective tactic than regular bombing, i.e. leaving a bag with a bomb in it at the target and walking away. The whole discussion was very dramatic, but left you thinking that they were all idiots for not being able to see that third possibility (or the fourth possibility, or the fifth, etc.) It was merely the writers that wanted to force some moral murkiness for dramatic effect.

There were some occasions of that moral murkiness that worked. I recall one instance where the fleet was caught with their pants down by the Cylons where, if I recall correctly, one or two of the fleet ships were disabled. Odama had to make the choice of staying and fighting, putting the whole fleet at risk, or leaving those ships behind to die. Those are the kind of choices that seem real. So many of the others seem false.

[boogerbear]

Actually there WAS something about the situation that made it so suicide bombing was the only thing that would work. It was established that the area was going to have heavily restricted access and be swept before the ceremony and the only people in attendance would be dignitaries (including the target Baltar), security and the graduating collaborator police. They specifically said leaving a bomb behind would not work because they couldn’t get in there and it would probably be found if they could. There was no third choice, combine that with the fact that both Tigh and the volunteer bomber had both crossed the line from being resistance fighters to revenge seekers, and that’s why the decision was made.

[fr_freak]

No you’re obviously angry. You use a lot of aggressive words and throw around a lot of accusations. You’re either angry or just an unpleasant person, I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt that this is a temporary thing.

You actually never did debate the WWII vs Iraq thing, you just threw around wild accusations and called various people mush headed.

This entire post confused me, until I looked at your account and realized how new you are. If you think the words I was using in this discussion were "aggressive" or "unpleasant", you're in for a rude awakening if you ever get into a serious political discussion here on FR. Hang around a while and you'll see exactly what I mean. Lurking doesn't tell the whole story, either. You don't get quite the full effect until you have those wonderful comments directed at you, specifically.

As for calling "various people mush headed", I only called liberals and left wingers mushy-headed. I didn't realize that that would offend you, since I was assuming you were not one of those. Other than that, I didn't make a single accusation toward anyone, including you. Reread my posts to you. I defy you to quote any name that I called you, or any direct insult that I made toward you.

[Dr. Frank fan]

Baltar lied about the results, but the test was real, and worked exactly as planned.

Ok, I'll have to take your word for it. This wasn't obvious to me watching the show, but admittedly maybe I missed a key line.

This still leaves the question as to why it failed to catch Tigh/Tory/Tyrol.

The Final Five are different from other Cylons, in ways both obvious (only one copy known of each, outside of all existing Cylon heirarchy)

"only one copy" vs. "many copies" is not really a biological difference. Let's say you meet me and think "person". Later, you find out I have a twin: does this make me "different"? From people with no twins? Far as we can tell, D'Anna now has no extant clones ("copies") whatsoever; does this suddenly make her "like the Final Five" and "different from the non-Final Five"? Of course not.

and unknown (why were the other Cylons forbidden to ask or think about them?)

Neither is this a biological difference.

What you really seem to be saying here is that their role/function is different from that of the other "Cylons". Yes, of course. The reason for that is largely dramatic and (I suspect) economic: the TV show hadn't 'revealed' five models, probably hadn't signed any actors to play them, but were nearing having to wind-up the story arc, and so they cooked up this bogus mysticism and drama about "The Final Five". In other words the Five have been given "different" roles for purely extraneous reasons of plotting and drama and casting. Which is precisely the point I was trying to make, of course.

It remains a mystery how they are or could be "different" biologically. And thus, why Baltar's test - if it was real - failed to catch them. This remains a mystery because, of course, the whole "Final Five" stuff was cooked up later, and the writers didn't bother too hard about consistency. Which, again, is precisely my point.

[Dr. Frank fan]

When Sharon shoots Adama altar says that she was an “early” test and it had been refined since then. Later talking to the Cylons he gives some indication that there never was a test. But we saw the results over his shoulder, we know the test worked, it showed red, it detected Sharon.

Right. So, there really was a test (and he lied about Sharon), except there wasn't. Clear as mud.

Anders wasn’t with the fleet. We don’t know how many other people got tested. Remember the test took 11 hours and couldn’t be done in parallel,

True. But I do believe he tested all of the key Galactica crew at the very least. This should have picked up Tigh and Tyrol. Unless it was a fake. Which it was (according to some episodes but not others). Um that about settles that. (?)

I can see Baltar making the test out of scientific curiosity but once he actually found a Cylon and lied about the results there’s no reason for him to do any more tests, it worked, curiosity has been satisfied, time to move on.

You paint a plausible scenario but the fact remains that in context, there's simply no way he didn't test the second-in-command (Tigh) and yet somehow tested...Sharon, some random shuttle pilot. (I'll stipulate that maybe he never got to Tyrol.) In fact I think the test of Tigh was explicitly shown, or at least its results, though I'm not positive. But anyway so according to your explanation, the test worked, but he decided to lie about any positives. This means that Baltar tested Tigh, saw the positive result, then lied about it.

Fine, but here's the problem with that: in the most recent ep, Baltar was surprised to discover that Tigh was a Cylon. According to your attempt at a clarifying explanation, Baltar should have known this all along (and acted accordingly). So, contradiction.

The other possibility is that the "Final Five Cylons" are simple not testable (by Baltar's test) of course. But this gets us right back to: why not? What's their biological difference exactly? And why were these "Final" five, including Tigh who is apparently the oldest of them all but also Tory who is not, made with different biology than the other Cylons?

The answer of course to all of this is "because the writers thought it would be good TV". And that's it.