Posted on 09/07/2008 1:11:27 PM PDT by WesternCulture
World history, as most Westerners interprets it, very much revolves around nations like France, Russia/Soviet, Britain, Italy and USA.
These corners of the Earth, undeniably, have played major roles in the development of mankind.
BUT, there seems to be a gap in the historical knowledge of several, otherwise well educated, Westerners concerning what took place during the period of approximately 1620-1720 on European soil.
A lot of people seem aware that Britain at that time was not really, yet, the world's leading power and that France, Spain, Austria and Holland excersised much of influence over world affairs.
However, during this period there was another "agent" highly involved in the development of Europe's evolution. More specifically, a nation which accomplished two major things:
- Securing the future of Protestantism and also hindering the Habsburg dynasty of "encircling" France
- Hindering Russia from reaching the Seven Seas.
Two legendary monarchs which, by all means, belong to the most gifted commanders of their own time embody these achievements:
- Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden, who once and for all completely broke the backbone of Catholicism in Northern Europe
- Charles XII of Sweden, who invaded Russia and - very much aided by the scorched earth strategy of Russia itself - made that particular nation unable of competing with Western Europe for centuries.
I am a 39 year old Swede and when I went to school, these aspects of the wars my nation fought under Gustavus Adolphus and Charles XII were never dealt with at school.
Why?
Perhaps it is a question of traditional Scandinavian, PC/Socialist policies in the area of national education, perhaps it is a matter of the likewise traditional Scandinavian "Jante Law" syndrome; namely a culture which strongly opposes and counteracts presumption and self-righteousness (I'd say that understanding this mentality is vital to understanding the culture of the Nordic countries at large).
Catholicism deserves to be and so does Russia.
However, Northern European civilization does too and while I, as a son of Northern European Protestants, feel gratitude towards what Catholicism has done for my part of the world as well as I wish to express my admiration for the marvels that the great nation of Russia has accomplished in various areas, I wholeheartedly defend what Gustavus Adolphus and Charles XII did in their time.
Today, my beloved Sweden disposes of awesome weapons like stealth subs, stealth battleships, highly advanced multi-role fighter planes etc, etc and an overall technological competence that in many areas is the envy of the world (for instance, have a look at what Ericsson means to the development of the IT industry of today). This is something very, very nice indeed, but does Sweden still matter in "world history"?
Probably not as much as Swedish Liberals like Blix seems to think.
The US rules the world and France rules Europe.
However, if Swedes in general would shut up and admit to ourselves that we, actually, are better at deciding world affairs by competent military intervention than amateur attempts at high-level diplomacy, much could be gained.
The European countries could do more in the WOT. But, very unfortunately, there seems to be a widespread European fear of having to make a choice between what, truly, is right and wrong.
Is it right to stand up for something you truly believe in like good old Gustavus Adolphus and Charles XII did?
Yes, I believe it is and a lot of other people here in the Nordic countries (Finland, Iceland, Denmark, Norway and Sweden) do too and that is exactly why we will continue to send troops to places like Afghanistan in order to prevent little girls from being shot in the back by Taliban machine gun fire on their way to school.
Catholicism is still around.
- Yes, but many Catholics, especially the pragmatic northern Italians and insightful Catholics in southern Germany, have realized the only way forward is the path of science and technological advancement.
This ideology is what has made both America, Germany and the Scandinavian countries rich.
When I visit the northernmost parts of Germany, especially those parts once having been haunted by BOTH Nazism and Communism, I always meet with people who claim to be living in “Süd Schweden” - “Southern Sweden”.
This attitude speaks of how deep hatred for oppression and subjugation goes in this part of Europe. To some Germans who have experienced these horrors, “Germany” is about never seeing your family again because of something you happened to have said at work.
In many parts of Germany, Swedish troops brought about havoc and disaster in the 17th century, but from a broader perspective Sweden paved way for the industrial and scientific ground gained during 18th, 19th and 20th century Germany.
So, was there no progress made in the parts of Germany that remained Catholic during these centuries?
Yes, there was indeed. But this has much to do with the position of the church once and for all having been weakened by the decisive Swedish military operations of the 17th century.
In Italy and Spain, where Catholicism was much stronger, progress was very, very slow during these centuries.
in general there is nothing incompatible with authentic science and technology advances and the Church. There are abuses of science and technology which dehumanize us, and the Church is right to oppose these abuses.
in general there is nothing incompatible with authentic science and technology advances and the Church. There are abuses of science and technology which dehumanize us, and the Church is right to oppose these abuses.
During the 1600’s they still had some influence, I agree, but it can’t be compared to what Gustavus Adolphus accomplished
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I didn’t compare them to any person, place, or thing. I just said you forgot to mention them.
Sorry, I must have been on vacation...
Did Sweden recently join NATO, or are non-NATO countries contributing militarily in Afghanistan?
And have these "hundreds" of Swedish "troops" (?) been right there in the thick of the fighting -- they must have suffered lots of casualties, right?
So, why is all this not in the news?
Let's get real. Sweden spends about 1.7% of her GDP on defense. That's 35% less than our ally Greece, which has roughly the same population and GDP.
Sorry, but no one ever said the Swedes weren't smart enough, only that in recent centuries, they've done NOTHING to help defend the west militarily. Shame on them!
Ha, I seriously doubt our good friends the Greeks spend over 36% of GDP on Defense, as you claim.
Sorry, I do my best to be both brief and accurate.
Obviously, in this case, I was too brief.
A few minutes googling up the population, GDP and defense spending of Sweden, also produced similar numbers for Greece.
But whereas Sweden spends 1.7% of their GDP on defense, Greece with similar population and GDP, spends 2.3%, which, if you do the math, is 35% more than Sweden.
Of course, neither matches the US 4.3%, but Greece is at least pulling UP the EU's 2% average, while Sweden is pulling it DOWN.
Does that clarify?
- Personally, I’m looking forward to the next time Sweden will take on USA in a hockey rink."
"girly men" -- it's a joke, SNL, our Austrian Governator of CaLIfornia wants to "pump you up." ;-) Ok, if you don't get it, forget it.
Here's my point:
By all reports, Europe is in process of mass suicide, lemmings marching to the sea of oblivion, because apparently, the men have almost literally misplaced their gonads, and can't reproduce.
I sure don't understand it, apparently has something to do with Europe's dominant socialistic secular philosophy. Whatever it is, I'm almost certain that a little bit of math could demonstrate: Europe's loss of population over time is equivalent to that of World War II.
And is not Sweden leading the lemmings?
- Yes.
Sweden has sent plenty of troops and other personnel to various war zones across the globe ever since the end of WWII.
I'm not an expert of these things, but I guess the expenses for these operations often are booked as “aid” and not “military expenditure”.
“Over the last 50 years 100 000 Swedish men and women have served in altogether 120 international operations in 60 different countries in support of peace, security and development. Some of these missions are long term - we´ve been in Korea for more than 50 years.”
(From a 2007 speech by Sten Tolgfors, Swedish Minister for Defence)
Regarding Swedish intervention in Afghanistan;
http://www.mil.se/en/Forces-abroad2/Afghanistan/
About the Swedish Armed Forces:
This problem isn’t unique to Sweden. In the US, The total number of annual births is today in fact lower than it was around 1960 when the population was about 3/5s of what it is today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Birthratechart.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:US_Population_Graph_-_1790_to_2000.svg
Naturally, I don't want to belittle sincere efforts, especially when they involve risks & danger in defending peace and freedom. God bless you for that.
But I think we're talking about UN Peace Keeping forces here, not combat units. There's usually a difference, and you can often see that difference in the numbers of casualties.
Anyway, if I understand, your whole point here is to ask for recognition of Sweden's important roles in defending Western Civilization as we know it, right? I'm only saying that from here, it looks like a pretty thin resume.
On the question of declining birth rates, you are correct of course. But my understanding is that Sweden is among the leaders in the charge towards self anihilation, with the US bringing up the rear, thanks in part to higher immigration rates.
My point was that Sweden shows us where we will be, if we continue down the path...
35% more...
Yeah thats a good clarification. Thanks.
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