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Do Gay Animals Change Evolution?
scientificamerican. ^ | June 16, 2009 | Katherine Harmon

Posted on 06/18/2009 7:42:41 AM PDT by JoeProBono

Homosexual behavior seems pointedly un-Darwinian. An animal that doesn't pass along genes by mating with the opposite sex at every, well, conceivable opportunity, seems to be at an evolutionary disadvantage. So what’s in it for the 450-plus species that go for same-sex sex?

Two evolutionary biologists from University of California, Riverside, set out to answer that question in a paper published today in Trends in Ecology and Evolution.

"It's been observed a lot," says Nathan Bailey, a post-doctoral researcher at U.C. Riverside and lead study author, of same-sex sexual behavior in animals. "But it took people a long time to put it in an evolutionary context."

After studying dozens of published articles on the topic, Bailey and his colleague Marlene Zuk concluded that, in addition to being an adaptational strategy, "these behaviors can be a force," Bailey said. "They create a context in which selection can occur [differently] within a population."

In the Laysan albatross, for example, previous research has shown that a third of all bonded pairs in a Hawaii colony are two females. This behavior helps the birds, whose colony has far more females than males, by allowing them to share parenting responsibilities. It also gives more stability to the offspring of males, already bonded to a female, who mate opportunistically with females in a same-sex couple. Such a dynamic, then may force gradual changes in behavior and even physical appearance of the birds, the authors note.

Other researchers, however, aren't convinced that everything must fit into the evolutionary, adaptive rubric. "You have to think outside of that," says Paul Vasey, who studies Japanese macaque monkeys as an associate professor at the University of Lethbridge in Canada.


TOPICS: Pets/Animals
KEYWORDS: creationism; culturewar; doublestandard; evolution; gay; gayalbatross; homosexualagenda; junkscience; lavendermafia; moralabsolutes; pravdamedia; pseudoscience; sexpositiveagenda; weareallgay

PROSPERING GAY ANIMALS: Male chinstrap penguins, such as the famous Roy and Silo of the Central Park Zoo, have paired and even cared for eggs.


1 posted on 06/18/2009 7:42:42 AM PDT by JoeProBono
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To: JoeProBono

Sure glad there is no gay agenda around, to turn into an obsession.....and grant money.


2 posted on 06/18/2009 7:48:09 AM PDT by Sacajaweau
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To: JoeProBono

I was under the impression that animals only engaged in homosexual activity only if there are no other animals of the opposite sex around....


3 posted on 06/18/2009 7:48:42 AM PDT by NMEwithin
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To: JoeProBono

Gay animals are as real as unicorns and 3 headed tigers.


4 posted on 06/18/2009 7:49:21 AM PDT by cripplecreek (The poor bastards have us surrounded.)
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To: JoeProBono

I don’t think the question should lie in a gay-straight context. As they mention some, or perhaps most, same sex pairing is for benefits outside of sex. In fact they don’t seem to mention sex at all. Looking at their definition of things it appears that you could say two human male roommates who do get an apartment together, share bills and food are gay when they obviously are not.


5 posted on 06/18/2009 7:50:34 AM PDT by aft_lizard (One animal actually eats its own brains to conserve energy, we call them liberals.)
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To: JoeProBono
Other researchers, however, aren't convinced that everything must fit into the evolutionary, adaptive rubric.

But... but... the Scientific Establishment[tm] has a tight-knit cabal that rigidly excludes such heretical thoughts! That's what all the creationist threads on FR say, anyway....

6 posted on 06/18/2009 7:53:59 AM PDT by steve-b (Intelligent design is to evolutionary biology what socialism is to free-market economics.)
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To: JoeProBono
the animal kingdom exhibits some select traits of homosexuality but not the way we think of it.

homosexuality can offer benefits to caring for offspring, strengthening group cohesion, quelling conflicts, establishing a hierarchy.

but it's not like a dude lion goes cruising for another dude lion. think about it. if you are a gay human male and you help raise your nieces and nephews, aren't you passing on your genetic material? of course you are since you share a fair amount with the offspring of your siblings.

7 posted on 06/18/2009 7:54:05 AM PDT by thefactor (yes, as a matter of fact, i DID only read the excerpt)
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To: Sacajaweau

Hmmm, interesting how the author states that it creates “gradual changes in behavior and appearance” in the albatross species studied. I’m obviously not a scientist, but I notice those changes seem to happen with the human species as well!


8 posted on 06/18/2009 7:54:52 AM PDT by senorita
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To: cripplecreek

9 posted on 06/18/2009 7:56:02 AM PDT by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet)
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To: Sacajaweau
Do Gay Animals Change Evolution?

No, but they do decorate it nicely, though.

10 posted on 06/18/2009 7:56:40 AM PDT by Puppage (You may disagree with what I have to say, but I shall defend to your death my right to say it)
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To: JoeProBono

Animals have URGES! So gays are comparing themselves to animals? My male dog humps my leg (I am a male) does that mean we are gay? No, it’s a PERVERTED urge...PERIOD!


11 posted on 06/18/2009 8:02:05 AM PDT by mikelets456
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To: JoeProBono
It could be an evolutionary kill switch for genes... a gene pool self cleaning mechanism

Hey if you want to spin "Gay" as normal for a reason then let spin... you can play at this game many ways

12 posted on 06/18/2009 8:06:25 AM PDT by tophat9000 ( We are "O" so f---ed)
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To: JoeProBono
Do Gay Animals Change Evolution?

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

13 posted on 06/18/2009 8:07:09 AM PDT by kidd (Obama: The triumph of hope over evidence)
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To: Puppage

14 posted on 06/18/2009 8:07:21 AM PDT by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet)
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To: JoeProBono
“gives more stability to the offspring of males, already bonded to a female, who mate opportunistically with females in a same-sex couple.”

Sounds like quite the opportunity!

15 posted on 06/18/2009 8:09:09 AM PDT by allmendream ("Wealth is EARNED not distributed, so how could it be redistributed?")
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To: JoeProBono

Bush's fault!


16 posted on 06/18/2009 8:10:04 AM PDT by An.American.Expatriate (Here's my strategy on the War against Terrorism: We win, they lose. - with apologies to R.R.)
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To: aft_lizard

Agree. Most long time “lesbian” couples I’ve known are more androgenous companions sharing resources, supporting one another’s survival it seems.

Many times beginning on the gay path due to systematic rejection from males (chastity bono) or traumatic early abuse by a male(s. I do not believe at all that most lesbians are biochemically homosexual. They are psychologically single-gender cooperative.

These lesbian setups are more about support, loyalty. Much, much less about sex.


17 posted on 06/18/2009 8:10:10 AM PDT by cycle of discernment
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To: NMEwithin

It depends on the species. Some appear to engage in homosexual conduct for a variety of reasons and lacking opposite sex partners appears to be low down on that list for some of them.


18 posted on 06/18/2009 8:23:48 AM PDT by TomOnTheRun
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To: JoeProBono
It also gives more stability to the offspring of males, already bonded to a female, who mate opportunistically with females in a same-sex couple. Such a dynamic, then may force gradual changes in behavior and even physical appearance of the birds, the authors note.

Note that these are not "gay animals", because they are having sex with the opposite sex and getting pregnant. They simply are living in a different social environment.

There were and still are tribes of humans where the men pretty much just get food and have sex, and the woman all live together and raise the kids and care for them. That's not "homosexual".

Homosexual is when a person only wants to have sex with the same sex. And that won't work for Evolution.

BTW, I'm surprised more animals, especially males, don't have both hetero and homosexual sex. After all, masturbation is hard without hands, and the females may not always be around, and if you have no "morality", any hole will do for sexual gratification.

It is no surprise that animals might have sex in "inappropriate" ways. They are animals, after all.

But surprisingly, most animals don't seem to be as bad on that score as humans.

19 posted on 06/18/2009 8:25:59 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: Sacajaweau

...and take up lots of FR bandwidth.


20 posted on 06/18/2009 8:28:53 AM PDT by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to...otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: TomOnTheRun

Interesting...I didn’t know that


21 posted on 06/18/2009 8:32:12 AM PDT by NMEwithin
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To: JoeProBono; Revolting cat!
So what’s in it for the 450-plus species that go for same-sex sex?

What's in it for the dogs that hump stuffed dolls, furniture, and human legs?

What is the evolutionary "benefit" of j*cking off?

Scientific American has added itself the scrap pile of propaganda posing as useless infotainment.

22 posted on 06/18/2009 9:03:11 AM PDT by a fool in paradise (There is no truth in the Pravda Media.)
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To: aft_lizard; Slings and Arrows
Looking at their definition of things it appears that you could say two human male roommates who do get an apartment together, share bills and food are gay when they obviously are not.

"I think he's talking about us, Bert"

23 posted on 06/18/2009 9:05:45 AM PDT by a fool in paradise (There is no truth in the Pravda Media.)
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To: JoeProBono

it eliminates animals that can’t detect the opposit sex. (whether mutation or caused by a shortage of members of the opposit sex)


24 posted on 06/18/2009 9:06:04 AM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: wagglebee

PING


25 posted on 06/18/2009 9:06:52 AM PDT by a fool in paradise (There is no truth in the Pravda Media.)
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To: NMEwithin

you are correct, this is POLITICS trying to be a force in real science.

If anything when there is a shortage of the opposite sex, it would probably cull those least likely to reproduce and continue the species into the future. (at least until the next mutation or shortage)


26 posted on 06/18/2009 9:08:20 AM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: TomOnTheRun

And what about when they engage in interspecies sexual conduct?

Animals also commit rape and incest, we would be best advised to rise above baser animal instincts of sexual desire and procreation.


27 posted on 06/18/2009 9:09:44 AM PDT by a fool in paradise (There is no truth in the Pravda Media.)
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To: a fool in paradise

What about it? I never suggested that these were measures of what should be acceptable for humans. He asked about why the animals do these things and said he thought it was done primarily in the absence of the opposite sex. I merely responded that this was not the case. I’m not sure what you are responding to but it certainly wasn’t an argument that I actually made.


28 posted on 06/18/2009 9:31:20 AM PDT by TomOnTheRun
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To: a fool in paradise; MeekOneGOP; Conspiracy Guy; DocRock; King Prout; Darksheare; OSHA; ...
And who hunts gay penguins?


29 posted on 06/18/2009 9:54:49 AM PDT by Slings and Arrows ("If Dick Cheney is Darth Vader, then Barack Obama is Jar-Jar Binks!")
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To: TomOnTheRun
The point is that it is not necessary to “explain” the behaviors of the animal kingdom to find any justification for making a moral stand AGAINST certain behaviors in the civilized world of humans.

The sex positive agenda seeks to end ALL moral judgments over ALL sexual pairings regardless of sex, age, relation, marital status, number, or species of partner(s). Talk of “scientific evidence” for a genetic component et al are just blather to make the medicine go down. Ultimately, sex positive advocates don't care “why”, it's just another excuse to make it palatable, ultimately they don't think ANYTHING should be “off limits”.

30 posted on 06/18/2009 10:42:21 AM PDT by a fool in paradise (There is no truth in the Pravda Media.)
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To: a fool in paradise
Ok. I'm still not sure how what you are saying has anything to do with anything I said. You responded to me in particular - not a general response to the thread - so I'm working with the assumption that what you are saying has something to do with what I said.

My confusion comes from the fact that you appear to be responding to and refuting points I never made, never brought up, and don't personally believe. The only thing I said was that animals have a wide variety of reasons to do the things they do - a statement so vague that it could be read as being in agreement with just about anything.

31 posted on 06/18/2009 10:58:45 AM PDT by TomOnTheRun
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Comment #32 Removed by Moderator

To: FrPR
LOL!


33 posted on 06/18/2009 11:19:36 AM PDT by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet)
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Comment #34 Removed by Moderator

To: FrPR

35 posted on 06/18/2009 12:44:41 PM PDT by Slings and Arrows ("If Dick Cheney is Darth Vader, then Barack Obama is Jar-Jar Binks!")
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To: GodGunsGuts; Fichori; tpanther; valkyry1; Mr. Silverback; Gordon Greene; Ethan Clive Osgoode; ...

The constant appeal to the animal world just doesn’t do much for the homosexual movement.

It always comes across as making it look like they’re saying that gays are just like animals.


36 posted on 06/18/2009 2:33:14 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

Do Gay Animals Change Evolution? No, just their dates. Some titles just demand a pun.


37 posted on 06/18/2009 3:34:04 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: steve-b; metmom; GodGunsGuts
But... but... the Scientific Establishment[tm] has a tight-knit cabal that rigidly excludes such heretical thoughts! That's what all the creationist threads on FR say, anyway....

ummmm exactly who do you think these "other researchers" ARE that are "thinking outside the evolutionary box" ???

38 posted on 06/18/2009 6:19:09 PM PDT by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for g!ood men to do nothing---Edmund Burke)
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To: longtermmemmory
This is politics posing as science and money is the mother's milk of politics. Follow the money, the politically correct weirdos have their hands on all of the grant money. We must look into this and make sure that this stuff is not being down with the public’s money.
39 posted on 06/18/2009 7:17:18 PM PDT by cradle of freedom (Long live the Republic !)
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To: metmom

Thanks for sharing your views, dear metmom!


40 posted on 06/18/2009 8:32:44 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: JoeProBono

>>It also gives more stability to the offspring of
>>males, already bonded to a female, who mate
>>opportunistically with females in a same-sex couple.

That’s a male with a harem, not the lesbianism the anthropomorphizing “researchers” are attempting to hang around the albatross’ neck.

Humans are MAMMALS, and, thanks to billions of years of evolution, mammals reproduce HETEROsexually.

There is absolutely no evidence that “tolerating” homosexual behavior has positive impact upon the social or biological fitness of human societies. None. Zip. Nada.

OTOH, there is historical evidence of the demise of homosexually tolerant societies - Hellenist Greece, Rome, Sodom and Gomorrah, Nazi Germany, and the USA.

Do what thou wilt is NOT the whole of the law.


41 posted on 06/19/2009 4:58:29 PM PDT by LomanBill (Animals! The DemocRats blew up the windmill with an Acorn!)
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To: JoeProBono
This article and the "research" it cites are bovine excrement.



Females naturally grouping together and cooperatively raising offspring, as can be observed among many mammalian species, does not make those females lesbians.
42 posted on 06/19/2009 5:17:01 PM PDT by LomanBill (Animals! The DemocRats blew up the windmill with an Acorn!)
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To: LomanBill

43 posted on 06/19/2009 5:21:36 PM PDT by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet)
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To: a fool in paradise; TomOnTheRun; Carry_Okie
>>seeks to end ALL moral judgments
 
Nothing new.
 
"Praised be he who permits the forbidden"
--Tsvi Sabbatai, Jewish Appostate and false messiah, circa 1660
 
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law"
--
Aleister Crowley, founder of modern Satanism, circa 1908
 
"[A community] organizer... does not have a fixed truth -- truth to him is relative and changing. ... To the extent that he is free from the shackles of dogma"
--Saul Alinsky, circa 1973

44 posted on 06/19/2009 5:29:42 PM PDT by LomanBill (Animals! The DemocRats blew up the windmill with an Acorn!)
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To: JoeProBono

>>”It’s been observed a lot,” says Nathan Bailey

So has cancer.


45 posted on 06/19/2009 5:35:58 PM PDT by LomanBill (Animals! The DemocRats blew up the windmill with an Acorn!)
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To: LomanBill

“OTOH, there is historical evidence of the demise of homosexually tolerant societies - Hellenist Greece, Rome, Sodom and Gomorrah, Nazi Germany, and the USA.”

—Yeah, they do almost as badly as the societies that are intolerant of homosexuality.


46 posted on 06/19/2009 5:43:58 PM PDT by goodusername
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To: JoeProBono
"America is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold:
its patriotism, its morality, and its spiritual life.
If we can undermine these three areas,
America will collapse from within."
--- Joseph Stalin

47 posted on 06/19/2009 5:49:21 PM PDT by LomanBill (Animals! The DemocRats blew up the windmill with an Acorn!)
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To: JoeProBono
Do Gay Animals Change Evolution?

Yes, indeed they do !

They've dubbed it, 'The Fudge Factor'

Nam Vet

48 posted on 06/19/2009 5:49:37 PM PDT by Nam Vet ("Any fool can make a rule, and any fool will mind it." .... Henry David Thoreau)
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To: goodusername

>>Yeah, they do almost as badly as the societies that are intolerant of homosexuality.

Societies like Free Republic, troll?

As a conservative site, Free Republic is pro-God, pro-life, pro-family, pro-Constitution, pro-Bill of Rights, pro-gun, pro-limited government, pro-private property rights, pro-limited taxes, pro-capitalism, pro-national defense, pro-freedom, and-pro America. We oppose all forms of liberalism, socialism, fascism, pacifism, totalitarianism, anarchism, government enforced atheism, abortionism, feminism, homosexualism, racism, wacko environmentalism, judicial activism, etc.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1103363/posts

Observe the context within which Adolph Hitler and his sexualy perverse SS rose to power:
Police Commissioner Hans von Tresckow, who served in Berlin during the years that Hitler was on the streets in Munich and Vienna, wrote the following in his memoirs:

One of the worst features of homosexualism is that it gives rise to an enormous amount of male prostitution. Many persons who are perfectly normal find it a lucrative though disgraceful trade. In Berlin there are many centers where homosexualists make the acquaintances of accomplices who will serve their requirements. And there are many cafés and taverns which are frequented almost exclusively by such people. The police are powerless to put down this practice, because they require legal authorization to interfere. My experience is that male prostitution has been steadily increasing for some decades past and cases of blackmail are becoming more numerous accordingly; for a person who goes in for this profession is almost always a blackmailer. (Treschow in Lively:18).

--from The Pink Swastika, chapter 5

 

Tyranny of the Appetite, comrade.

49 posted on 06/19/2009 6:05:35 PM PDT by LomanBill (Animals! The DemocRats blew up the windmill with an Acorn!)
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To: JoeProBono

SO uch for the “Selfish Gene”.


50 posted on 06/19/2009 6:07:39 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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