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Rammell apologizes for LDS elders only meetings
Rexburg Standard Journal ^ | Jan. 8, 2010 | Nate Sunderland

Posted on 01/10/2010 5:41:32 PM PST by Colofornian

IDAHO FALLS -- Rex Rammell has had a change of heart regarding who is invited to his "elders of Israel only" meetings.

At a press conference Thursday, the Idaho gubernatorial candidate issued a formal apology with regards to his exclusion of non-Mormons from his upcoming meetings dealing with the so-called "White Horse Prophecy."

Reading from a prepared statement, Rammell said he was wrong to assume that nonmembers of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints wouldn't be interested in hearing his message.

"To all those citizens who are not members of the LDS faith, who have expressed a sincere interest in attending my meetings and discussing this prophecy and how we can step forward and save the United States Constitution, I would like to apologize and invite them wholeheartedly to join us," said Rammell.

Rammell also says that he hopes that the meetings will bring people of all faiths together to "unite in a common cause ... to save the Constitution."

"The theme of my campaign has been, will be, and as governor, will always be states' rights," Rammell told reporters. "And so, you don't have to be LDS to contribute to that discussion, and I think they will contribute greatly."

The LDS Church has issued a statement distancing itself from Rammell. The church also does not consider the prophecy, which is said to have come through its founder, Joseph Smith, as doctrine.

Although Rammell's controversial meetings have made regional and state-wide news for several weeks, earlier this week, the controversy was picked up by various national media organizations, including the DrudgeReport.

Rammell's first meeting will be on Jan. 19, at the Hampton Inn in Idaho Falls at 7 p.m. A subsequent meeting will be held in Rexburg on Jan. 21, at the Marriott Hotel at 7 p.m.

The events are free and open to everyone.

For more information about Rex Rammell or his campaign, visit www.voterammell.com.


TOPICS: Chit/Chat; Conspiracy; History; Religion
KEYWORDS: antimormonthread; apology; id2010; idaho; lds; ldschurch; mormon; rammell
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From the article: ...the Idaho gubernatorial candidate issued a formal apology with regards to his exclusion of non-Mormons from his upcoming meetings dealing with the so-called "White Horse Prophecy."

What is it with this rash of Mormon politicians apologizing over the past 72 hours having to do with the way they classify (racism) and exclude (sexism, anti-non-Mormonism) people???

Why do they judge people by the color of their skin, their voice dialect, their sex, and their non-Mormon status?

From the article: Reading from a prepared statement, Rammell said he was wrong to assume that nonmembers of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints wouldn't be interested in hearing his message. "To all those citizens who are not members of the LDS faith, who have expressed a sincere interest in attending my meetings and discussing this prophecy and how we can step forward and save the United States Constitution, I would like to apologize and invite them wholeheartedly to join us," said Rammell.

1 posted on 01/10/2010 5:41:33 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian
The LDS Church has issued a statement distancing itself from Rammell. The church also does not consider the prophecy, which is said to have come through its founder, Joseph Smith, as doctrine.

It is a milk before meat statement. You have to have the Mormon view point before you are allowed to get the "TRUTH". It is the same way that the LDS church distances itself from polygamy and a works based salvation. You won't get a straight answer (meaning not a lie) until you swallow the hook line AND sinker.
2 posted on 01/10/2010 5:48:03 PM PST by pennyfarmer (Your Socialist Beat our Liberal)
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To: Colofornian

Don’t these people believe that we came from space aliens and we die we’ll become space aliens?


3 posted on 01/10/2010 5:57:32 PM PST by Dallas59 (No To O -Time is going by really really really really slow.)
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To: pennyfarmer
The LDS Church has issued a statement distancing itself from Rammell. The church also does not consider the prophecy, which is said to have come through its founder, Joseph Smith, as doctrine.

Just because it ain't 'doctrine'; don't mean we don't BELIEVE it!

--MormonDude(Heck - if them OLD leaders of ours believed it - that's good enough for me!)

4 posted on 01/10/2010 6:07:40 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: pennyfarmer

It is a milk before meat statement. You have to have the Mormon view point before you are allowed to get the “TRUTH”. It is the same way that the LDS church distances itself from polygamy and a works based salvation. You won’t get a straight answer (meaning not a lie) until you swallow the hook line AND sinker.

- - - - -

Exactly. One of the reasons I left was when I was told in a Missionary Prep class that I was not to teach/discuss certain doctrines. I could not, in good conscience, serve an LDS mission and lie to potential investigators.

Since they claim they have the whole truth and the rest of Christianity is in darkness, why the need to lie?


5 posted on 01/10/2010 6:32:50 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Elsie

The LDS Church has issued a statement distancing itself from Rammell. The church also does not consider the prophecy, which is said to have come through its founder, Joseph Smith, as doctrine.

- - - - - - -
Just because SLC doesn’t consider it “doctrine”, does not mean it is not part of the LDS lay theology and most of the members believe it.


6 posted on 01/10/2010 6:41:24 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Colofornian

“To all those citizens who are not members of the LDS faith, who have expressed a sincere interest in attending my meetings and discussing this prophecy and how we can step forward and save the United States Constitution,

- - - - - - -
The “we” being the Mormons only. Non-members need not apply.


7 posted on 01/10/2010 6:42:43 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Colofornian

Yeah, it isn’t “doctrine”, nevermind how many of the LDS leaders and prophets have taught it.

“You will see the constitution of the United States almost destroyed. It will hang like a thread.... A terrible revolution will take place in the land of America.... [T]he land will be left without a Supreme Government,... [Mormonism] will have gathered strength, sending out Elders to gather the honest in heart... to stand by the Constitution of the United States.... In these days... God will set up a Kingdom, never to be thrown down.... [T]he whole of America will be made the Zion of God.”

- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., May 6, 1843, in Roberts, Journal of John J. Roberts

“I shall take it as a witness that God designs to cut the thread between us and the world, when an army undertakes to make their appearance in this Territory to chastise me or to destroy my life from the earth…. I shall take a hostile movement by our enemies as evidence that it is time for the thread to be cut.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 5, pp. 256-257, September 20, 1857

“Will the Constitution be destroyed? No: it will be held inviolate by this people; and, as Joseph Smith said, ‘The time will come when the destiny of the nation will hang upon a single thread. At that critical juncture, this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction.’ It will be so.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 7, p. 15, July 4, 1854

“[W]hen the Constitution of the United States hangs, as it were, upon a single thread, they will have to call for the ‘Mormon’ Elders to save it from utter destruction.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 2, p. 182, February 18, 1855

“How long will it be before the words of the prophet Joseph will be fulfilled? He said if the Constitution of the United States were saved at all it must be done by this people. It will not be many years before these words come to pass.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 12, p. 204

“The present Constitution, with a few alterations of a trifling nature, is just as good as we want; and if it is sustained on this land of Joseph, it will be done by us and our posterity.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 324

“I expect to see the day when the Elders of Israel will protect and sustain civil and religious liberty and every Constitutional right bequeathed to us by our fathers, and spread these rights abroad in connection with the Gospel for the salvation of all nations. I shall see this whether I live or die.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 11, p. 262

“The Almighty has established this kingdom with order and laws and every thing pertaining thereto… [so] that when the nations shall be convulsed, we may stand forth as saviours… and finally redeem a ruined world, not only in a religious but in a political point of view.”

- Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, v. 9, p. 342, April 13, 1862

“What the world calls ‘Mormonism’ will rule every nation.... God has decreed it, and his own right arm will accomplish it. This will make the heathen rage.”

- Apostle Orson Hyde, n.d., Journal of Discourses, v. 7, p. 53

“Saviors of the Nation.—To escape the judgments hanging over the wicked, and find a place where they might worship God unmolested, the Latter-day Saints fled to the Rocky Mountains. Here, and here only, during the temporary isolation sought and found by them in the chambers of “the everlasting hills,” could they hope to be let alone long enough to become strong enough to accomplish their greater destiny. For in that enforced exodus and the rounding of this mountain-girt empire there was more than the surface facts reveal. If tradition can be relied upon, Joseph Smith prophesied that the Elders of Israel would save this Nation in the hour of its extremest peril. At a time when anarchy would threaten the life of the Government, and the Constitution be hanging as by a thread, the maligned and misunderstood “Mormons”—always patriotic, and necessarily so from the very genius of their religion—would stand firm upon Freedom’s rocky ramparts, and as champions of law and order, liberty and justice, call to their aid in the same grand cause kindred [p.61] spirits from every part of the nation and from every corner of the world.
All this preparatory to a mighty movement that would sweep every form of evil from off the face of the land, and build the Zion of God upon the spot consecrated for its erection. This traditional utterance of their martyred Seer is deeply imbedded in the heart and hope of the ‘Mormon’ people.”

- Apostle Orson F. Whitney, Saturday Night Thoughts, pp. 60-61

“... [Someday] there would be no stable government outside of the Latter-day Saints; and that it is their destiny as a people, to uphold constitutional government upon this land.”

- Apostle George Q. Cannon, Journal of Discourses, v. 25, p. 123, April 3, 1881

“Now, these are the commandments of God, the principles contained in these commandments of the great Eternal are the principles that underly the Constitution of our country, and all just laws. Joseph Smith, the prophet, was inspired to affirm and ratify this truth, and he further predicted that the time would come, when the Constitution of our country would hang as it were by a thread, and that the Latter-day Saints, above all other people in the world, would come to the rescue of that great and glorious palladium of our liberty. We cannot brook the thought of it being torn into shreds, or destroyed, or trampled under foot and ignored by men. We cannot tolerate the sentiment, at one time expressed, by a man high in authority in the nation. He said: “The constitution be damned; the popular sentiment of the people is the constitution!” That is the sentiment of anarchism, and has spread to a certain extent, and is spreading over “the land of liberty and the home of the brave.” We do not tolerate it. Latter-day Saints cannot tolerate such a spirit as this. It is anarchy. It means destruction. It is the spirit of mobocracy, and the Lord knows we have suffered enough from mobocracy, and we do not want any more of it. Our people from Mexico are suffering from the effects of that same spirit. We do not want any more of it, and we cannot afford to yield to that spirit or contribute to it in the least degree. We should stand with a front like flint against every spirit or species of contempt or disrespect for the constitution of our country and the constitutional laws of our land.”

- Prophet Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, p. 403

“Now, these are the commandments of God, the principles contained in these commandments of the great Eternal are the principles that underly the Constitution of our country and all just laws. Joseph Smith, the prophet, was inspired to affirm and ratify this truth, and he further predicted that the time would come, when the Constitution of our country would hang as it were by a thread, and that the Latter-day Saints above all other people in the world would come to the rescue of that great and glorious palladium of our liberty.”

- Prophet Joseph F. Smith, Conference Report, October 1912, p. 11

“My brethren and sisters, I hope that we will go home from this conference determined as a great body of people, to stand for law, order, righteousness, justice and peace on earth and good will among all men. I believe as the Prophet Joseph has written, that the day would come when there would be so much of disorder, of secret combinations taking the law into their own hands, tramping upon Constitutional rights and the liberties of the people, that the Constitution would hang as by a thread. Yes, but it will still hang, and there will be enough of good people, many who may not belong to our Church at all, people who have respect for law and for order, and for Constitutional rights, who will rally around with us and save the Constitution. I have never read that that thread would be cut. It will hang; the Constitution will abide and this civilization, that the Lord has caused to be built up, will stand fortified through the power of God, by putting from our hearts all that is evil, or that is wrong in the sight of God, by our living as we should live, acceptable to him.”

- Apostle Charles W. Nibley, Conference Report, October 1922, p. 40

“The Prophet Joseph told us that he saw the day when even the Constitution of the United States would be torn and hang as by a thread. But, thank the Lord, the thread did not break. He saw the day when this people would be a balance of power to come to its defense. The Book of Mormon prophecies concerning the future of America have been referred to in our hearing during this conference, wherein it is stated that this nation, though it becomes a mighty nation, still it can stand in security here only as it serves the God of this land. That conception was in the hearts of the men who founded America.”

- Apostle Melvin J. Ballard, Conference Report, October 1928, p. 108

“I believe that it is the destiny of the Latter-day Saints to support the Constitution of the United States. The Prophet Joseph Smith is alleged to have said—and I believe he did say it—that the day would come when the Constitution would hang as by a thread. But he saw that the thread did not break, thank the Lord, and that the Latter-day Saints would become a balance of power, with others, to preserve that Constitution. If there is—and there is one part of the Constitution hanging as by a thread today—where do the Latter-day Saints belong? Their place is to rally to the support of that Constitution, and maintain it and defend it and support it by their lives and by their vote. Let us not disappoint God nor his prophet. Our place is fixed.”

- Apostle Melvin J. Ballard, Conference Report, April 1933, p. 127

“The Prophet Joseph told us that he saw the day when even the Constitution of the United States would be torn and hang as by a thread.... He saw the day when this people would be a balance of power to come to its defense.”

- Apostle Melvin J. Ballard, Conference Report, October 1928, p. 108

“You and I have heard all our lives that the time may come when the Constitution may hang by a thread. I do not know whether it is a thread, or a small rope by which it now hangs, but I do know that whether it shall live or die is now in the balance.”

- Apostle J. Reuben Clark, Conference Report, October 1942, p. 58

“How long will it be before the words of the prophet Joseph will be fulfilled? He said if the Constitution of the United States were saved at all it must be done by this people. It will not be many years before these words come to pass. When the Constitution of the United States hangs, as it were, upon a single thread, they will have to call for the Mormon Elders to save it from utter destruction; and they will step forth and do it. . . . if it is sustained on this land of Joseph, it will be done by us and our posterity.”

- Apostle Mark E. Peterson, Conference Report, April 1946, p. 171

“[Joseph Smith] said if the Constitution of the United States were saved at all it must be done by this people. It will not be many years before these words come to pass. When the Constitution of the United States hangs, as it were, upon a single thread, they will have to call for the ‘Mormon Elders to save it from utter destruction; and they will step forth and do it.”

- Apostle Mark E. Peterson, Conference Report, April 1946, p. 171

“Joseph Smith... [said] the time would come when the Constitution would hang as by a thread and at that time when it was thus in jeopardy, the elders of this Church would step forth and save it from destruction. Why the elders of this Church?... ‘We alone know by revelation as to how the Constitution came into being, and we, alone, know by revelation the destiny of this nation.”

- Prophet Harold B. Lee, Conference Report, October 1952, p. 18

“But beyond all that, the Latter-day Saints have a responsibility, that may be better understood when we recall the prophecy of Joseph Smith who declared that ‘the time would come when ( the destiny and ) the Constitution of these United States would hang as it were by a thread, and that this people, the sons of Zion, would rise up and save it from threatened destruction.’ (J. of D., Vol. 7:15)
I want to ask you to consider the meaning of that prophecy, in the light of the declaration of the prophets of the Book of Mormon times, who declared that this land was a choice land above all other lands, and would be free from bondage and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of this land, even our Savior, Jesus Christ. (Ether 2:12)”

- Prophet Harold B. Lee, Conference Report, April 1942, p. 87

“It was Joseph Smith who has been quoted as having said that the time would come when the Constitution would hang as by a thread and at that time when it was thus in jeopardy, the elders of this Church would step forth and save it from destruction.
Why the elders of this Church? Would it be sacrilegious to paraphrase the words of the Apostle Peter, and say that the Constitution of the United States could be saved by the elders of this Church because this Church and this Church alone has the words of eternal life? We alone know by revelation as to how the Constitution came into being, and we, alone, know by revelation the destiny of this nation. The preservation of ‘life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness’ can be guaranteed upon no other basis than upon a sincere faith and testimony of the divinity of these teachings.”

- Prophet Harold B. Lee, Conference Report, October 1952, p. 18

“[Joseph Smith] said the time would come when this Constitution would hang as by a thread, and this is true.... ‘Now I tell you it is time the people of the United States were waking up with the understanding that if they don’t save the Constitution from the dangers that threaten it, we will have a change of government.’”

- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Conference Report, April 1950, p. 159

“CONSTITUTION TO HANG BY A THREAD. The statement has been made that the Prophet said the time would come when this Constitution would hang as by a thread, and this is true. There has been some confusion, however, as to just what he said following this. I think that Elder Orson Hyde has given us a correct interpretation wherein he says that the Prophet said the Constitution would be in danger.
Said Orson Hyde: I believe he said something like this—‘that the time would come when the Constitution and the country would be in danger of an overthrow’ and said he: ‘If the Constitution be saved at all, it will be by the elders of this Church.’ I believe this is about the language, as nearly as I can recollect it.”

- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, v. 3, p. 326

“I must not take more time but to add this: The statement has been made that the Prophet said the time would come when this Constitution would hang as by a thread, and this is true. There has been some confusion, however, as to just what he said following this. I think that Elder Orson Hyde has given us a correct interpretation wherein he says that the Prophet said the Constitution would be in danger. Said Orson Hyde:
I believe he said something like this — that the time would come when the Constitution and the country would be in danger of an overthrow; and said he: ‘If the Constitution be saved at all, it will be by the Elders of this Church.’ I believe this is about the language, as nearly as I can recollect it. (Journal of Discourses, 6:152.)
Now I tell you it is time the people of the United States were waking up with the understanding that if they don’t save the Constitution from the dangers that threaten it, we will have a change of government.”

- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Conference Report, April 1950, p. 159

“Joseph Smith predicted that the time would come when the Constitution would hang, as it were, by a thread, and at that time ‘this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction.’... [Then] the Elders of Israel [i.e., LDS leaders], widely spread over the nation, will at that crucial time successfully rally the righteous of our country and provide the necessary balance of strength to save the institutions of constitutional government.”

- Prophet Ezra Taft Benson, Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, 1988, p. 619

[Joseph Smith] foresaw the time when the destiny of the nation would be in danger and would hang as by a thread. Thank God he did not see the thread break. He also indicated the important part that this people should yet play in standing for the principles embodied in these sacred documents – the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.”

- Prophet Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, April 1948, p. 85

“[Joseph Smith] foresaw the time when the destiny of the nation would be in danger and would hang as by a thread. Thank God he did not see the thread break. He also indicated the important part that this people should yet play in standing for the principles embodied in these sacred documents – the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.”

- Prophet Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, April 1948, p. 85

“… the Lord told the Prophet Joseph Smith there would be an attempt to overthrow the country by destroying the Constitution. Joseph Smith predicted that the time would come when the Constitution would hang, as it were, by a thread, and at that time ‘this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction…. It is my conviction that the elders of Israel, widely spread over the nation will at that crucial time successfully rally the righteous of our country and provide the necessary balance of strength to save the institutions of constitutional government.”

- Prophet Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, October 1961, p. 70

“The Prophet Joseph Smith said the time would come when the Constitution would hang as it were by a thread. Modern-day prophets for the last thirty years have been warning us that we have been rapidly moving in that direction. Fortunately, the Prophet Joseph Smith saw the part the elders of Israel would play in this crisis.”

- Prophet Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, April 1963, p. 113

“The Prophet Joseph Smith said the time would come when the Constitution would hang as it were by a thread. Modern-day prophets for the last thirty years have been warning us that we have been rapidly moving in that direction. Fortunately, the Prophet Joseph Smith saw the part the elders of Israel would play in this crisis. Will there be some of us who won’t care about saving the Constitution, others who will be blinded by the craftiness of men, and some who will knowingly be working to destroy it? He that has ears to hear and eyes to see can discern by the Spirit and through the words of God’s mouthpiece that our liberties are being taken.”

- Prophet Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, April 1963, p. 113

“Thank God for the Constitution. And may God bless the elders of Israel that when, as President John Taylor said, ‘the people shall have torn to shreds the Constitution of the United States, the Elders of Israel will be found holding it up to the nations of earth and proclaiming liberty.’”

- Prophet Ezra Taft Benson, “Jesus Christ – Gifts and Expectations, New Era, May 1975, p. 19

“The Lord told the Prophet Joseph Smith there would be an attempt to overthrow the country by destroying the Constitution. Joseph Smith predicted that the time would come when the Constitution would hang, as it were, by a thread, and at that time “this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction” (Journal of Discourses, 7:15). It is my conviction that the elders of Israel, widely spread over the nation, will at that crucial time successfully rally the righteous of our country and provide the necessary balance of strength to save the institutions of constitutional government.
If the Gentiles on this land reject the word of God and conspire to overthrow liberty and the Constitution, their doom is fixed, and they “shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant” (1 Nephi 14:6; 3 Nephi 21:11, 14, 21; D&C 84:114-15, 117). (God, Family, Country, p. 345.)
As we spread abroad in this land, bearers of this priesthood, men and women with high ideals and standards, our influence will spread as we take positions of leadership in the community, in the state, in the nation, in the world. We will be able to sit in counsel with others and we will be able to influence others in paths of righteousness. We will help to save this nation, because this nation can only be preserved on the basis of righteous living.”

- Prophet Ezra Taft Benson, Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, pp. 618-619

“It is no wonder that the Prophet Joseph said—even though he knew he would suffer martyrdom in this land—‘The Constitution of the United States is a glorious standard; it is founded in the wisdom of God. It is a heavenly banner.’
Yet, according to his contemporaries, he foresaw the time when the destiny of the nation would be in danger and would hang as by a thread. Thank God he did not see the thread break. He also indicated the important part that this people should yet play in standing for the principles embodied in these sacred documents—the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.”

- Prophet Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, April 1948, p. 85

“Eleventh: In connection with attack on the United States, the Lord told the Prophet Joseph Smith there would be an attempt to overthrow the country by destroying the Constitution. Joseph Smith predicted that the time would come when the Constitution would hang, as it were, by a thread, and at that time ‘this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction.’ (Journal History, Brigham Young’s Speech, July 4, 1854.)
It is my conviction that the elders of Israel, widely spread over the nation will at that crucial time successfully rally the righteous of our country and provide the necessary balance of strength to save the institutions of constitutional government.”

- Prophet Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, October 1961, p. 70

“From time to time, accounts of various supposed visions, revelations, and prophecies are spread forth by and among the Latter-day Saints, who should know better than to believe or spread such false information. One of these false and deceptive documents that has cropped up again and again for over a century is the so-called White Horse Prophecy. This supposed prophecy purports to be a long and detailed account by the Prophet Joseph Smith concerning the wars, turmoils, and difficulties which should exist in the last days.
“It is a sad commentary on the spiritual insight of professing saints that they will generate intense interest in these supposed prophetic utterances and yet know little of and pay less attention to the volumes of true and sound prophetic writings which delineate authoritatively the course of latter-day world events. It is known by all informed gospel students that whenever revealed truth, new or old, is to be sent forth for the enlightenment of the saints and of the world, it will be announced officially and publicly by the First Presidency.
“Speaking, first of the White Horse Prophecy specifically, and then of all such false revelations in general, President Joseph F. Smith said: ‘The ridiculous story about the `red horse,’ and `the black horse,’ and `the white horse,’ and a lot of trash that has been circulated about, and printed, and sent around as a great revelation given by the Prophet Joseph Smith, is a matter that was gotten up, I understand, some ten years after the death of the Prophet Joseph Smith, by two of our brethren, who put together some broken sentences from the Prophet that they may have heard him utter from time to time, and formulated this so-called revelation out of it, and it was never spoken by the Prophet in the manner in which they have put it forth. It is simply false; that is all there is to it.
Now, these stories of revelations that are being circulated around are of no consequence, except for rumor and silly talk by persons that have no authority. The fact of the matter is simply here and this. No man can enter into God’s rest unless he will absorb the truth insofar that all error, all falsehood, all misunderstanding and misstatements, he will be able to sift thoroughly and dissolve, and know that it is error and not truth. When you know God’s truth, when you enter into God’s rest, you will not be hunting after revelations from Tom, Dick, and Harry all over the world. You will not be following the will of the wisps of the vagaries of men and their own ideas. When you know the truth, you will abide in the truth, and the truth will make you free, and it is only the truth that will free you from the errors of men, and from the falsehood and misrepresentations of the evil one, who lies in wait to deceive and to mislead the people of God from the paths of righteousness and truth. (Conf. Rep., Oct. 1918, p. 58.)”

- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.835

“[T]he kingdom of God... is to be a political institution that shall hold sway over all the earth; to which all other governments will be subordinate and by which they will be dominated.”

- LDS Historian and Seventy B.H. Roberts, The Rise and Fall of Nauvoo, 1900, p. 180

“I would like to add this in conclusion. It is said that President Brigham Young, many years ago, made this statement:
When the Constitution of the United States hangs, as it were, upon a single thread, they will have to call for Mormon elders to save it from utter destruction: and they will step forth and do it. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 2:182, Feb. 18, 1855.)
This is recorded in the Journal of Discourses and I presume it is accurate, but however it may be, is it not a possibility, that this Church, in its great leadership and in the power that will come to it in advocating the things that are divine and are right and true as for example the great welfare program, is not possible that when we as a nation shall have exhausted our resources—and we can well do that if we do not turn about—when we have we have reached that point is it not possible that to us will those who are not of us look for guidance and we will be held up as a people who are pointing an economic way that will mean for the economic and spiritual salvation and blessing of our people.”

- High Priest Clifford E. Young, Conference Report, April 1949, pp. 75-76

“LDS attachment to the Constitution has been further encouraged by an important oral tradition deriving from a statement attributed to Joseph Smith, according to which the Constitution would “hang by a thread” and be rescued, if at all, only with the help of the Saints. Church President John Taylor seemed to go further when he prophesied, “When the people shall have torn to shreds the Constitution of the United States the Elders of Israel will be found holding it up to the nations of the earth and proclaiming liberty and equal rights to all men” (JD 21:8). To defend the principles of the Constitution under circumstances where the “iniquity,” or moral decay, of the people has torn it to shreds might well require wisdom at least equal to that of the men raised up to found it. In particular, it would require great insight into the relationship between freedom and virtue in a political embodiment of moral agency.”

- Encyclopedia of Mormonism, v. 1, p. 1992

“We shall build the Zion of the Lord in peace untill the servants of that Lord shall begin to lay the foundation of a great and high watch Tower and then shall they begin to say within themselves, what need hath my Lord of this tower seeing this is a time of peace &c. Then the Enemy shall come as a thief in the night and scatter the servants abroad. When the seed of these 12 Olive trees are scattered abroad they will wake up the Nations of the whole Earth. Even this Nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground and when the constitution is upon the brink of ruin this people will be the Staff up[on] which the Nation shall lean and they shall bear the constitution away from the very verge of destruction.”

- “The Historians Corner,” BYU Studies, v. 19, no. 3, pp. 391-392

“The History of the Church account is an amalgamation of the reports in the Joseph Smith Diary and the Nauvoo Neighbor. The report by Levi Richards is here published for the first time. A reminiscent account of this discourse by James Burgess contains the essential details found in the other three accounts published here, and adds that the “Constitution and Government would hang by a brittle thread.”
In the month of May 1843. Several miles east of Nauvoo. The Nauvoo Legion was on parade and review. At the close of which Joseph Smith made some remarks upon our condition as a people and upon our future prospects contrasting our present condition with our past trials and persecutions by the hands of our enemies. Also upon the constitution and government of the United States stating that the time would come when the Constitution and Government would hand by a brittle thread and would be ready to fall into other hands but this people the Latter day Saints will step forth and save it.
General Scott and part of his staff on the American Army was present on the occasion.
I James Burgess was present and testify to the above (James Burgess Notebook, Church Archives).”

- Ehat and Cook, Words of Joseph Smith, 6 May 1843 Note, p. 279

“Brigham Young and other preachers are constantly inculcating in the minds of the crowded audiences who sit beneath their teachings every Sabbath that the United States is of no consequence, that it lies in ruins, and that the prophecy of Joseph Smith is being fulfilled to the letter. According to the prophecy, the United States as a nation is to be destroyed. That the Gentiles, as they call all persons outside of their church, will continue to fight with each other until they perish and then the Saints are to step in and quietly enjoy the possession of the land and also what is left of the ruined cities and desolated places. And that Zion is to be built up, not only in the valleys and the mountains but the great center of their power and glory is to be in Missouri where the Saints under the lead of their prophet were expelled many years ago.”

- Steven Harding, Utah governor, in Eugene E. Campbell, Establishing Zion: The Mormon Church in the American West, 1847-1869, 1988, p. 292

“In all the meetings that I have attended, not one word, not one prayer, has been uttered or offered up for the saving of our cause and for the restoration of peace, but on the contrary the God of the Saints has been implored to bring swift destruction on all nations, peoples, and institutions that stand in the way of the triumph of this people.”

- Steven Harding, Utah governor, in Eugene E. Campbell, Establishing Zion: The Mormon Church in the American West, 1847-1869, 1988, p. 292

“[Brigham] taught followers that the governments of the earth were false and should be overthrown, that God had only delegated to the priesthood the right to set up a government. God would appoint a ruler, and all persons who otherwise pretended to have authority to govern were usurpers. Young was said to have asserted that although the Constitution of the United States was a revelation, it had fulfilled its purpose – the formation of a government so that the Mormon church could be organized. According to Young, slavery had nothing to do with the present disturbances, which were in consequence of the persecution the Saints had suffered at the hands of the American people.”

- Eugene E. Campbell, Establishing Zion: The Mormon Church in the American West, 1847-1869, 1988, p. 292

“Our government, the best government in the world, is crumbling to pieces. Those who have it in their hands are the ones who are destroying it. How long will it be before the words of the prophet Joseph will be fulfilled? He said if the Constitution of the United States were saved at all it must be done by this people. It will not be many years before these words come to pass.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 12, p. 204, April 8, 1868

“Joseph Smith... predicted that the time would come, ‘when the Constitution of our country would hang as it were by a thread, and that the Latter-day Saints above all other people in the world would come to the rescue.”

- Prophet Joseph F. Smith, Conference Report, October 1912, p. 11

“... if I were to guess as to how the Constitution may ‘hang by a thread’ it would be because of the immense powers given tot he President and his opportunity for their abuse. Let us... resolve that we will do all in our power to preserve these principles for our posterity. This is our duty as citizens of the United States, and pre-eminently our duty as Latter-day Saints.”

- Senator Wallace F. Bennett, Utah, BYU Speeches, February 15, 1961, p. 13

“I gave the language and sources of the prophetic utterance made by the Prophet Joseph that the Constitution of the United States would hang by a single thread, but be saved by the elders of Israel. I hope you will read those sources so you will be well-informed as to this prophecy and be prepared to do your part in its fulfillment.”

- Ernest L. Wilkinson, BYU President (1951-1971), BYU Speeches, April 21, 1966, p. 7,)

“LDS attachment to the Constitution has been further encouraged by an important oral tradition deriving from a statement attributed to Joseph Smith, according to which the Constitution would ‘hang by a thread’ and be rescued, if at all, only with the help of the Saints. Church President John Taylor seemed to go further when he prophesied, ‘When the people shall have torn to shreds the Constitution of the United States the Elders of Israel will be found holding it up to the nations of the earth.;:

- Daniel H. Ludlow, ed., Selections from Encyclopedia of MormonismS, 1995, “The Church and Society,” p. 122

“[LDS TV weatherman Thom Spencer] at a Republican rally broke with tradition that a journalist should remain objective and spoke out at the rally because of a prophecy by Joseph Smith, who founded the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints more than 150 years ago. Smith predicted that the time would come ‘when the Constitution and government would hang by a brittle thread and be ready to fall into other hands, but this people, the latter-day saints, will step forth and save it.’”

- “Weatherman’s Politics Cloud His Role on TV,” Seattle Times, November 24, 2000

“They tolerate everything that’s bad, and they’re intolerant of everything that’s good. Religious freedom is going to go down the drain, too. I’ve never seen it worse than this, where the Constitution literally is hanging by a thread.”

- Orrin Hatch, Republican Mormon Senator of Utah, “The Doug Wright Show,” (KSL) November 9, 1999

“The documents show that Joseph Smith did prophecy a number of times that the United States and the Constitution would be imperiled and that the elders would have a hand in saving them.”

- D. Michael Stewart, “I Have A Question,” Ensign, June 1976, p. 64

“... the prophet Joseph Smith did make the marvelous prediction that it is the destiny of the Latter-day Saints to some day save the Constitution of the United States.”

- Preston Nibley, LDS church historian, Deseret News, December 15, 1948; quoted in The White Horse Prophecy, 1993, p. 65

“It’s a very common belief [among Mormons] that the Constitution will hang by a thread and the Church will save it.”

- Jan Shipps, quoted in Warchol and Heilprin, “Mormon Myth Stalks Hatch to Presidential Race,” Salt Lake Tribune, Junly 15, 1999

“We have much in our national system that militates against the rise of a dictator. The Bill of Rights with its philosophy of individual rights against oppression is still a curb on a power-hungry President. But if I were to guess as to how the Constitution may “hang by a thread” it would be because of the immense powers given to the President and his opportunity for their abuse.
Let us delve once again into the great principles of the Constitution and resolve that we will do all in our power to preserve these principles for our posterity. This is our duty as citizens of the United States, and pre-eminently our duty as Latter-day Saints, because without the Constitution this glorious restoration would not have taken place in this land and might not have taken place at this point in history.”

- Senator Wallace F. Bennett, BYU Speeches, February 15, 1961, p. 13

“Our government is an organization which was to, and since has, enacted, judged and enforced law through and by legislative, judicial and executive departments. It is encumbent on the American people to steadfastly maintain the historic balance of power by the three branches of government if our political system is to be preserved. If this is not done then the thread by which it has been predicted the Constitution will hang will be clipped and our form of government will disappear. We, the American people, must not become so internationally minded as to sell our birthright for a spurious promise of world peace. The most nationally-minded people are our enemies. We must remain faithful to our pledge, regardless of charges of chauvinism, to preserve America ‘with our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.’”

- Judge Joseph E. Nelson, BYU Speeches, April 24, 1963, p. 3

“I am concerned that in our worship of materialism in our country we now have an indebtedness of over $5,000 for every man, woman, and child in this country. (This includes obligations for goods already delivered and services already rendered to the government, although payable in the future.) I am concerned that we have in effect abandoned the Monroe Doctrine as our safeguard for ultimate protection of this hemisphere, and that as a result we are threatened with Communism not only in Cuba but in South America and now in Africa as well. If the Constitution is to hang by a thread in this country, I want to be one to help to preserve it.”

- Dr. Ernest L. Wilkinson, BYU Speeches, February 18, 1964, p. 9

“In my commencement address I gave the language and sources of the prophetic utterance made by the Prophet Joseph that the Constitution of the United States would hang by a single thread, but be saved by the elders of Israel. I hope you will read those sources so you will be well-informed as to this prophecy and be prepared to do your part in its fulfillment.”

- Dr. Ernest L. Wilkinson, BYU Speeches, April 21, 1966, p. 7

“Now what has happened in our country during the time we have been plunging toward socialism? Are we actually at that point where the Constitution may be hanging by a single thread and we need to step in to save it?”

- Dr. Ernest L. Wilkinson, BYU Speeches, April 21, 1966, p. 9

“Anyone can look at the words of the Prophet Joseph Smith... Brigham Young and others.... I have always felt that they meant that sometime the question of whether we are going to proceed on the basis of the Constitution would arise and at this point government leaders who were Mormons would be involved in answering that question.”

- George Romney, interview in “A Man’s Religion and American Politics: An Interview with Governor Romney,” Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Autumn 1967, v. 2, p. 25

“[T]here will be a complete change of government. Washington, D.C. will cease to be capital. The present national bureaucracy will have its end. The internal conflict will sweep away the current system of governments and will pave the way for the political kingdom of God and the millennial kingdom through which Jesus Christ will rule and reign.... A new government will be established among the saints and that political Kingdom of God will espouse and uphold the principles of Constitutional government.”

- Duane S. Crowther, Prophetic Warnings to Modern America, 1979, pp. 315-316


8 posted on 01/10/2010 6:44:54 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut

So do they believe that they will get their own planets?


9 posted on 01/10/2010 6:48:21 PM PST by tiki (True Christians will not deliberately slander or misrepresent others or their beliefs)
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To: reaganaut; Elsie; Colofornian; colorcountry
My dear brothers and sisters. As my dear wife and I were driving down that beautiful Weber Canyon we saw a sign “Welcome to Utah, Home of Fisher Beer” What an indictment of that great Mormon State to see a sign, “Welcome to Utah, Home of Fisher Beer”

Alma Brown, 1954 Stake Conference the Farr West Stake

10 posted on 01/10/2010 6:53:21 PM PST by Utah Binger (Southern Utah, where the World comes to see America)
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To: reaganaut; colorcountry

Sorry, I could have used the proper inflections of the language for brother Brown. If and when I see and meet you, I will give the phrase my entire power of oratory for your enjoyment. I think colorcountry has heard the approach used.

LOL


11 posted on 01/10/2010 7:01:36 PM PST by Utah Binger (Southern Utah, where the World comes to see America)
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To: Elsie; reaganaut
Just because it ain't 'doctrine'; don't mean we don't BELIEVE it! (Heck - if them OLD leaders of ours believed it - that's good enough for me!) [Elsie]

Just because SLC doesn’t consider it “doctrine”, does not mean it is not part of the LDS lay theology and most of the members believe it.[Reaganaut]

Well Lds polygamy wasn't Lds "doctrine" all throughout the 1830s, the 1840s, most of the 1890s, and the 1900s, yet was still practiced by select Mormons.

That's one reason why so many Lds "answers" are downright deceptive. They know certain things have been and many things have continued to be taught by their leaders; some undercover; and yet they try to distance themselves.

Hinckley (Lds "prophet") did it during a few media interviews with Snow's couplet that God was an ex-man and man is a future god.

And Brigham Young, who said if he had a chance to approve a sermon message he'd given, that that content was "as good as scripture" -- and yet "Brother Young" taught Adam was God for over 25 years + blood atonement -- you have to shed your blood for your own sins if they are serious enough.

So it's kind of "funny" to hear Brigham tell us in one ear that his words are as "good as scripture" -- while in the other ear contemporary Mormons whisper, "well, that's Mormon doctrine."

Yup. Mormon "scripture" isn't Mormon "doctrine." (And that's true on dozens of things beyond what Brigham taught)

12 posted on 01/10/2010 8:05:51 PM PST by Colofornian (If you're not going to drink the coffee, at least wake up and smell it!)
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To: tiki; reaganaut; Vendome
So do they believe that they will get their own planets?

Yes -- although technically you might say "stars" vs. planets. But that's the essential concept.

Own world/star.
Own new celestial spirit-children.
Produced from eternal celestial sex.
With celestial mom-god or mom-gods (could be an eternal polygamist) [that's the "funny" part in hearing Mormons deny earthly polygamy -- 'cause you know they didn't really "ban" polygamy -- in their mind, they just "colonized" it!!!

(Oh, & these millions of new spirit-gods-in-embryo produced by these thousands or hundreds of thousands new Mormon gods on these stars/planets??? Well, they'll grow up to worship these gods -- these "neighbors" & co-workers of yours -- worship, pray to, adore, glorify...can you say the word "pride?")

13 posted on 01/10/2010 8:10:30 PM PST by Colofornian (If you're not going to drink the coffee, at least wake up and smell it!)
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To: tiki

So do they believe that they will get their own planets?

- - - - - - - -
Yes. The LDS believe and teach that “worthy” Temple attending Mormons will “progress” in the next life to ‘exaltation’. This is their only idea of “real” heaven and eternal life. The LDS equate individual salvation only with this exaltation.

They believe and teach that this “exaltation” is Godhood, that the men will become Gods, the wives goddesses, organize their own worlds (they deny creation from nothing), have their own “spirit children” come to earth to live the Mormon Gospel, and send their own “saviors” to earth.

“… if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity,… they shall [have]… continuation of the seeds [children] forever and ever. Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting,… Then shall they be gods, because they have all power,… and continuation of the lives [eternal procreation of spirits].”

- Doctrine and Covenants 132:18-22

“[A] man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithfull, then they also will receive the fullness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings. There is no end to this development; it will go on forever. We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring.”

- Doctrines of the Gospel, Student Manual, 1986; also see Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1955, v. 2, p. 48

“in each of us is the potentiality to become a God” (Spencer W. Kimbal President of Mormon church Salt Lake Tribune, October 7, 1974).

Here then is eternal life- to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power (Joseph Fielding Smith ed, Teachings of The Prophet Joseph Smith, 346-47).

“As man is, God once was, as God is man may become” - Lorenzo Snow

Exaltation grows out of the eternal union of a man and his wife. Of those whose marriage endures in eternity, the Lord says, “Then shall they be gods” (D. & C. 132:20); that is, each of them, the man and the woman, will be a god.3 As such they will rule over their dominions forever (Mormon Doctrine, 613; cf. 257).


14 posted on 01/10/2010 8:26:49 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Utah Binger

lol. never had “fisher beer”


15 posted on 01/10/2010 8:27:33 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Colofornian

DON’T APOLOGIZE. What a weenie.

Why is that simple idea, so impossible for GOP maroons to understand.

STOP APOLOGIZING!! It’s weakness. Fight. And never stop.


16 posted on 01/10/2010 8:29:54 PM PST by Cringing Negativism Network (2012: Repeal it all... All of it!)
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To: Colofornian; tiki; reaganaut
I was riding around with some Mormons today and they swore up and down my information is wrong.

Told them I am just asking around.

Anyway, they say they are christians but, and here is the big but, they are they only ones how belong to the one true church.

Never could get clarification on my going to hell for availing myself of an apostasy religion as Joseph Smith said.

Only answer I got was never an affirmation that I am a believer in an apostasy religion but that I would be availed the opportunity, while in “Spiritual Prison” to be trained in God(not sure they meant Christ or whatever)

Also, learned that I cannot enter heaven without believing in Joseph Smith, for some reason and that had to believe in what I now the Twinity. I am sure you know what I mean.

Am I cracked or what? They just plain avoided answering the question directly when I asked about my salvation and never answered the question I asked.

Also, I guess they and the people of Tonga are Nephi’s and Lamanites, part of the lost tribe of Israel.

That Joseph Smith is some kinda archeology wizard. Apparently he came into some mummies, which just happened to have the scrolls of Abraham in them. He was given two “RoonStones” or something like that, which made it possible for him to interpret the scrolls perfectly and “Only” one time over the course of 90 days.

Really? Where are those?

Apparently a museum in New York found some scrolls, recognized them as belonging to the Mormon and they gave them to the Mormons.(Can't find anything to corroborate that fantastic story)

Man can become God as God was once man. Huh? and then the squaring of that with a Jealous God, who will have no others before me and there are no other Gods.

My head is swirling from all the info I was given today and I have to study it today.

And boy, howdy, do they get agitated and animated about their belief. I tend to think there is some fragility in their faith of their faith.

Sadly, I have engaged in the act of apostasy since my 8th birthday and only hope God will save me. /s

17 posted on 01/10/2010 8:39:33 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it.)
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To: Colofornian; Vendome; reaganaut

I had discussed this with my granddaughter this summer and she went back and asked the “elders” or whatever and they told her that that wasn’t true.

She did tell me that Jesus and Satan are brothers this summer but now she tells me that they are spiritual brothers. I showed her Hebrews chapter 1, she didn’t say much, she’s only 13.

She also told me about wanting to get married in the Temple to make her marriage eternal or whatever, I showed her Matthew 22 where the Sadducees are testing Jesus about ressurection and that marriage is for this world for God’s purpose and Heaven we won’t be married.

Poor kid, I’m sure I have her very confused. I just told her not to listen to other people and accept what they say but search for the truth on your own.

She has a HUGE book that has the BOM and stuff by JS and finally the KJV bible but she has never studied the Bible at all, just the BOM.


18 posted on 01/10/2010 8:58:59 PM PST by tiki (True Christians will not deliberately slander or misrepresent others or their beliefs)
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To: reaganaut

I can’t read all that. I will never get to read about the rest of the news today. LOL


19 posted on 01/10/2010 9:00:29 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it.)
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To: Vendome

LOL. Bookmark it for later. :)


20 posted on 01/10/2010 9:16:12 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Vendome; Colofornian; tiki

I was riding around with some Mormons today and they swore up and down my information is wrong.

I would be availed the opportunity, while in “Spiritual Prison” to be trained in God(not sure they meant Christ or whatever)

learned that I cannot enter heaven without believing in Joseph Smith,

Am I cracked or what?

- - - - - -
You are not cracked. lol.

I am a bit surprised they admitted that much.

The LDS have a unofficial policy of denying doctrines “we don’t believe that” with non members. They justify it by saying “gentiles (non members) would not understand” or “milk before meat”. Some of the doctrines are not openly taught even around members who have not yet been through the temple.

Some of the more forthright members will tell non-mormons the truth but with a caveat.

For example, when I was LDS, if a non-member who wouldn’t really know doctrines/history of the LDS had said to me “Mormons believe Jesus and Satan are brothers”. My first response (knee jerk) would have been “we don’t believe that”. But it has more to do with what they said vs. what I meant. A difference in definitions. For example: “Saved by grace” means something ENTIRELY different to Christians than it does to Mormons.

If someone who knew LDS doctrine and could back up an assertion asked me if I believed “Jesus and Satan were brothers”, I would have responded with a “Yeah...but...”.
The “Yeah, but” is that the LDS believe Jesus and Lucifer (don’t use the term Satan) are SPIRIT brothers, in the exact same way we are ALL spirit brothers and sisters. According to the LDS all spirits were born to Heavenly father and mother, this includes Lucifer and Jesus.

Because of this doctrine, Jesus (first born) is usually referred to as our “elder brother”. But technically Lucifer (second born) is our “elder brother” as well.

The LDS do not believe in a literal Hell. Therefore those who have never heard/accepted the LDS gospel will have a chance in “spirit prison” to accept Mormonism. Then it will be required that they are baptized/confirmed and had the Endowment rituals done for them here on earth. This is where the LDS temple rituals for the dead come in.

As far as accepting Joseph Smith to get into heaven, there have been some LDS prophets/leaders have taught that we must have permission of JS to get into the celestial kingdom. But the more common thinking today is that in order to get into Heaven (the Celestial Kingdom)you must accept the LDS Gospel which means, by necessity, accepting Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Restoration.

When discussing LDS doctrines with the LDS, make sure that you are familiar with differences in terminology and be very precise in your questions/statements. Be prepared to back up Christian doctrine with verses and be aware of the context of the LDS “proof” texts. Almost always, their so called “proofs” can be easily rebutted by looking at the context of the verse.

Hope this helps.

Tiki: I will be praying for your granddaughter.


21 posted on 01/10/2010 10:45:05 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut

I just could not believe my ears. As if someone were telling me a fairytale knowing full well there is no Easter Bunny but still expecting an adult to believe their fantastic story.

It was a bastardization of all sects prior to LDS and that other churches had committed some grave errors which caused their bible to rewritten many times.

And yet, Joseph Smith interpreted his amazing find among the mummies in one writing session, over a period of 90 days.

What an amazing man. /s


22 posted on 01/10/2010 10:51:00 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it.)
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To: Vendome

That Joseph Smith is some kinda archeology wizard. Apparently he came into some mummies, which just happened to have the scrolls of Abraham in them. He was given two “RoonStones” or something like that, which made it possible for him to interpret the scrolls perfectly and “Only” one time over the course of 90 days.

Really? Where are those?

Apparently a museum in New York found some scrolls, recognized them as belonging to the Mormon and they gave them to the Mormons.(Can’t find anything to corroborate that fantastic story)

- - - - - —
Here is a book called “By his own hand upon papyrus” -

http://irr.org/MIT/bhoh-pt1.html

It goes into detail about the Book of Abraham.

Also here are several articles on the Book of Abraham.

http://utlm.org/topicalindexb.htm#Book%20of%20Abraham

IIRC, the “Rune stones” (urim and thummim) were with the Book of Mormon, not the Book of Abraham. By this time, JS was claiming the ability to translate on his own. The mummies were purchased and there were scrolls with them. The scrolls were lost for many years and believed to have been destroyed in the Chicago Fire. However, they were found in a NY museum and turned over to the LDS church who now has them in their possession.


23 posted on 01/10/2010 10:52:43 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Vendome

As if someone were telling me a fairytale knowing full well there is no Easter Bunny but still expecting an adult to believe their fantastic story.

- - - - —
Yep. I have, for the most part, gotten over my self-deprecation for falling for the LDS “sales pitch”.

Those who are born in the LDS church and grew up in it always can say “well, i was never taught anything different”. Converts, like me, have to get over feeling so stupid to believe in it.

My “excuse” was I was a love sick teenager who was not a Christian and had little knowledge of the Bible. :)


24 posted on 01/10/2010 11:00:05 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut

So the scrolls are real and the same ones JS interpreted?


25 posted on 01/10/2010 11:03:09 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it.)
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To: Vendome

Yep. They are part of the Egyptian “Book of Breathings”, and have absolutely no resemblance to what JS claims to have “interpreted” (the Book of Abraham).

Part of my quest to prove the “anti-mormons” wrong when I was LDS was attempting to “prove” the Book of Abraham. In my attempt to do this I went so far as to take Egyptian Hieroglyph courses at UCLA.

I personally KNOW for sure, that there is no resemblance between the scrolls and JS’s translation that is in the LDS cannon. There is no doubt the BoA is a fraud.


26 posted on 01/10/2010 11:08:23 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut

Another thing I don’t understand is how the Mormons and several other friends insist, passionately, that I was Baptized a Baptist.

I have told them over and over, you will not find among the Protestants any imprimature for that belief.

I was baptized in a church as an outward expression and witness of my rebirth through Christ. I was not baptized into a church(Baptist, Presbyterian, etc.)

No, they didn’t want to wrap their head around that either.

“You were baptized a Baptist”. I had to assert, my pastor telling me what the baptism was about and its symbolism. However, it has nothing to with my salvation and my salvation is intact upon my acceptance of Jesus Christ, as my Lord and Savior.

Oh, and apparently those little stories, erh, parables, are supposedly true. I asked how they could make such an outlandish statement as they are in fact described as parables. “Nope, nope. They are real stories”.

Okay, they are allegories or compositions of almost any family and the outcomes. But, they are not real with the names and places being changed to protect the innocent.


27 posted on 01/10/2010 11:12:37 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it.)
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To: reaganaut

Hey, I bank at BofA.... Oh, wait you said BoA. LOL


28 posted on 01/10/2010 11:13:50 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it.)
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To: reaganaut

You are hurting my head and I am not use to discussions with anyone as well read as I. Not that I am a knower of all but you are all so informed.

How did you come to have so much knowledge about JC, JS, BY etc?


29 posted on 01/10/2010 11:15:32 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it.)
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To: Dallas59

Only you and your total family...........


30 posted on 01/10/2010 11:19:25 PM PST by Osage Orange (Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Anyone Who Threatens It)
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To: reaganaut
I was also told that our faith doesn't believe the word of God is literal. Nearly, had me on the floor laughing.

I had to inform them, I know of no Christians who do not believe in the literal word of God. In fact, my Mom has a little plaque on her wall saying:

“God said it,

I believe it,

That settles it.”

To be sure it helps to understand the Bible more accurately with a guide of historical content and languages but literally, there is no other practical way to interpret the Bible.

31 posted on 01/10/2010 11:19:35 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it.)
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To: Utah Binger
Fisher Beer was a N.Y. Yankee....!!!
32 posted on 01/10/2010 11:22:06 PM PST by Osage Orange (Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Anyone Who Threatens It)
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To: tiki

Naw, just license plates.


33 posted on 01/10/2010 11:22:47 PM PST by Osage Orange (Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Anyone Who Threatens It)
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To: Vendome

You are hurting my head and I am not use to discussions with anyone as well read as I.

How did you come to have so much knowledge about JC, JS, BY etc?

— — - - -
I will take that as a compliment. And I didn’t mean to give you a headache. :)

I did a lot of research while I was LDS, feeling I had to “catch up” with my friends who were born in the LDS. Even after only being a member a couple of years, I knew more than many friends who were born in the Church. They would come to me with questions they would have.

When I was LDS, I set out to be an LDS apologist, to prove the “anti-mormons” wrong. After almost a year of study (almost full time), I realized that I could no longer defend the LDS church. All of the inconsistencies and cover-ups piled up. The “anti’s” were, by far, more accurate and truthful than the LDS church was. That was almost 20 years ago.

Since I became a Christian, shortly after leaving, the Lord has put it on my heart to witness to the LDS. Part of that witness is being well informed on their history/doctrines.

Also, I am a historian by training and trade, so research is second nature to me. :)


34 posted on 01/10/2010 11:31:18 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut

Thanks-you...for what you do.


35 posted on 01/10/2010 11:34:26 PM PST by Osage Orange (Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Anyone Who Threatens It)
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To: Vendome

Another thing I don’t understand is how the Mormons and several other friends insist, passionately, that I was Baptized a Baptist.

I have told them over and over, you will not find among the Protestants any imprimature for that belief.

I was baptized in a church as an outward expression and witness of my rebirth through Christ. I was not baptized into a church(Baptist, Presbyterian, etc.)

No, they didn’t want to wrap their head around that either.

- - - - — - -
For the LDS, baptism is the first step in membership in a church. They believe being “born again” is becoming a member of the LDS. It has nothing to do with what Protestants consider being “Born Again”, they don’t grasp the Lordship of Christ or salvation by grace through faith. In fact, they often make fun of it.

To them, the only reason a person would be baptized is to join a church. There is no point in it otherwise.

They will say that it is also for the “forgiveness of sins”, but they back themselves into a corner on this.

They do not accept any non-LDS baptism as valid, so “remission of sins” only applies to LDS baptism. This makes sense for converts, but at the same time you MUST be become a member of the LDS church in order to be baptized for the “remission of sins”. There is no separation.

For children born in the LDS church, they are baptized at age 8. The LDS teach that until they reach that age, they do not know right from wrong and therefore cannot sin. So here their argument that baptism for the “remission of sins” falls apart. If children have no sins until they are eight years old, why are they baptized at age eight
to wash away non-existent sins?


36 posted on 01/10/2010 11:43:25 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Osage Orange

Awww...Thank you.


37 posted on 01/10/2010 11:46:34 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Colofornian

They know certain things have been and many things have continued to be taught by their leaders; some undercover; and yet they try to distance themselves.

- - - - - -
Very true and a good part of the reason it is so difficult to witness to the LDS sometimes.


38 posted on 01/10/2010 11:49:20 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Vendome

I was also told that our faith doesn’t believe the word of God is literal. Nearly, had me on the floor laughing.

- - - - - - -
I find this particularly ironic since the LDS selectively use bible verses out of context for their “proof texts”, read things INTO biblical texts (eisegesis), and say the believe the Bible, then turn right around and say that the Bible isn’t reliable and cannot be trusted.

HUH???


39 posted on 01/11/2010 12:06:13 AM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut

I totally meant it as a compliment.

Their deceit is unbelievable.

Thank you so much for your work.

They all claimed to be christian today, while saying they are the only true church of Christ.

I don’t understand how you(they) can be the only true church of christ.

Christ is, as he is and as he will or shall ever be.

I am working toward Js’ statement that all others are apostacy and need to figure a clever trap of agreement and spring the surprise on them and when I do, it will be an insurmountable statement that cannot be refuted.

It needs to be done in such a way that is not insulting but shines such a bright light that is in irrefutable.

I will find it.

Their statements do not make sense.

Their Twinity, of God and Jesus appearing as men, is just so much nonsense.

I have been instructed to read something, that upon my reading it and asking God for word and truth of its reading, will leave me with no other choice but to accept the word of their Seer as the gospel of god.

I forget, at this time what they asked me to read, to confirm their belief system. But, I will read it tomorrow.

Thank you again from a Christian for Jesus.


40 posted on 01/11/2010 12:57:51 AM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it.)
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To: reaganaut

Why can’t I simply be baptized in Christ?

Verily, Verily I say unto you...


41 posted on 01/11/2010 12:59:58 AM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it.)
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To: reaganaut
“[A] man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithfull, then they also will receive the fullness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings. There is no end to this development; it will go on forever. We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring.”

Sounds kind of like Amway.

42 posted on 01/11/2010 8:07:26 AM PST by Sherman Logan ("The price of freedom is the toleration of imperfections." Thomas Sowell)
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To: Sherman Logan

Sounds kind of like Amway.

- - - - - -
Lol. Actually it kind of is. There is a view among the LDS (lay theology) that for every faithful convert you bring into the LDS church, you will add to your glory in the Celestial Kingdom (where you progress to godhood).

I have known LDS members who seek out and befriend people going through transitions (birth, death, engagement, marriage, etc) because they are more likely to join a church during this time with the hope that they will become Gods sooner.


43 posted on 01/11/2010 10:06:22 AM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Vendome

Why can’t I simply be baptized in Christ?

- - - - -
To the LDS, baptism in the LDS church IS baptism in Christ and vice versa. There is NO difference to them.

They believe that only they TRULY worship Christ and so baptism in Christ is only valid if it includes membership in the LDS.


44 posted on 01/11/2010 12:54:17 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Vendome

They all claimed to be christian today, while saying they are the only true church of Christ.

I don’t understand how you(they) can be the only true church of christ.

- - - - - -

This idea comes out of JS’s interest (and Sidney Rigdon’s ministerial training) in the Restoration movement which was prominent in the early 19th Century. Here is a very basic introduction to it:

http://www.gotquestions.org/Restoration-movement.html

The idea was that Christianity needed to return to the New Testament church. Smith (and Rigdon who developed most early LDS theology) incorporated many of Campbell’s ideas and took some to the extreme.

The LDS really do believe they are the ONLY true Christians and that the LDS church is EXACTLY how Jesus Christ established it here on earth. They believe that Christ, while here on earth, established a specific denomination and that JS restored it because after the death of Jesus and the apostles fell into apostasy. IOW, Jesus was mistaken (or lying) when he said that the ‘gates of hell shall not prevail’ shall not prevail against His church.

I have never been able to get a satisfactory answer as to how the LDS can change practice/doctrine yet still claim to be the Original New Testament church. The excuse of continuing revelation falls flat in that they are in essence stating that Christ did not really establish the full church (and thus the early Christian believers are apostates) OR they are admitting to changing the “restored” gospel making the LDS church a “reformed” church instead.


45 posted on 01/11/2010 1:24:34 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Vendome

Their Twinity, of God and Jesus appearing as men, is just so much nonsense.

- - -

I read recently something that stated asked how the LDS could believe in a God that threw out “spiritual red herrings”. The Bible (and Jesus) teaches that God is spirit and we must worship Him in spirit and truth, and then 2000 years later “POOF” God shows up to Smith in a body of flesh and bones! That is a huge “Gotcha” to all the believers who lived for thousands of years believing He was a Spirit.


46 posted on 01/11/2010 1:28:27 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Vendome

I have been instructed to read something, that upon my reading it and asking God for word and truth of its reading, will leave me with no other choice but to accept the word of their Seer as the gospel of god.

- - - - - -
It was most likely “Moroni’s Promise” in the Book of Mormon.

And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. [Moroni 10:4]

The problem with this passage is it is circular. If you pray and DO NOT recieve a witness that it is true, then it is YOUR fault. You either...

didn’t ask in the name of Christ...
have a sincere heart...
real intent...
or have faith in Christ.

Add to that the pressure of friends/missionaries testifying that THEY felt the “burning in the bosom” when they prayed about the BOM (or any other LDS doctrine) it is easy to convince yourself that you are having the same experience or do not have enough faith.

Important note: The BIBLE NEVER says anything about praying to know if it is true. It doesn’t need to.


47 posted on 01/11/2010 1:32:29 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: Vendome

Thank you again from a Christian for Jesus.

- - - - - -
Soli Deo Gloria.

I am only doing what I really believe God has called me to do. I used to decry my membership in the LDS, and felt guilty for believing such blasphemies. Now I can see that, while it was not God’s will I join the LDS, He has used that experience for His glory.


48 posted on 01/11/2010 1:36:04 PM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut
That was it! and my question was “It seems to me the dependency is in their belief system only. Not the salvation of Jesus Christ”

The answer I got back was “well, you have to be sincere”

To which I replied “isn't that a little like trying to convince an agnostic? I mean, if they are not seeking or not open, you aren't going to get anywhere”

Their reply came again “Read it and pray with sincerity”

Again my rejoinder “You really are asking for a predisposed outcome”/

///////////////

Anyway, dumb argument.

I did learn that LDS is growing by 500,000 per year. Seems high to me and I am sure that is not all from convert but ordination over coffee cans(dead bodies)

49 posted on 01/11/2010 3:42:53 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it.)
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To: reaganaut

Maybe it was Halloween and he was high on Paoti?


50 posted on 01/11/2010 3:44:35 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it.)
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