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A Million Electric Vehicles - The president wants them by 2015, but 2064 is...more realistic.
NATIONAL REVIEW ONLINE ^ | June 7, 2011 | Robert Bryce

Posted on 06/08/2011 11:56:53 AM PDT by neverdem

A Million Electric Vehicles
The president wants them by 2015, but 2064 is a more realistic estimate.

Back in January, during his State of the Union speech, President Obama said that he wanted the U.S. to “become the first country to have 1 million electric vehicles on the road,” and he wanted it to happen by 2015. Given current sales of the Chevy Volt and Nissan Leaf, the president may hit his target . . . sometime in 2064.

In May, U.S. sales for the much-hyped Volt totaled 481. The Leaf did better, with 1,142 units sold. That’s a grand total of 1,623 electric cars sold for the month. At that torrid rate, it will take about 639 months, or a bit more than 53 years, for domestic sales of electric vehicles to reach 1 million.

Of course, none of this is surprising. Electric cars are the Next Big Thing, and they always will be. What is, ahem, shocking, is just how gullible the Obama administration, and much of the mainstream media, has been about the potential for electric cars to garner a significant share of the market.

Why would consumers buy a Volt, which gets 40 miles per gallon on the highway and costs $40,000, when they can buy a Chevy Cruze, which sells for less than half that amount, is nearly identical in size, and gets 42 miles per gallon? The answer is, they wouldn’t. In May, General Motors sold 22,711 Cruzes(PDF). Put another way, for every Chevy shopper who chose the Volt, 47 others decided the Cruze was a better value.

Johan de Nysschen, the president of Audi of America, predicted the Volt’s low-amperage future nearly two years ago when he said that “no one is going to pay a $15,000 premium for a car that competes with a Corolla . . . there are not enough idiots who will buy it.

One could say that comparing the Volt with the Cruze is unfair, because the two cars appeal to different demographics. Last year, Deloitte Consulting released a report on electric vehicles that found that the most likely buyers are people with household incomes “in excess of $200,000” and “who already own one or more vehicles.” But in May, GM sold 11,623 Cadillacs — 24 for every Volt it sold.

The Deloitte study concluded that the U.S. now has about 1.3 million consumers who “fit the demographic and psychographic profiles” of expected electric-vehicle buyers. It went on to say that mass adoption of electric cars “will be gradual” and that by 2020, perhaps 3 percent of the U.S. car market could be amenable to them. Think about that: Out of some 300 million Americans, perhaps 1.3 million of them are inclined to buy an electric vehicle today, and perhaps 9 million will be willing to consider it a decade from now. And as the lackluster sales of the Volt and the Leaf show, only a tiny fraction of that fraction are actually buying electric cars, even though they could get a $7,500 federal tax credit for doing so.

As de Nysschen made clear two years ago, all of this was easily predictable. Consider a New York Times report contending that the electric car “has long been recognized as the ideal solution” because it “is cleaner and quieter” and “much more economical” than gasoline-fueled cars. That’s from Nov. 12, 1911. Or consider this assessment by a believing reporter: “Prices on electric cars will continue to drop until they are within reach of the average family.” That line appeared in the Washington Post on Halloween, 1915.

Obama’s electric-vehicle fetish reflects much of the inanity of our discussions about energy. The idea that oil is bad, and that we must therefore throw vast sums of money at efforts to fuel our automotive fleet with something else — anything else — ignores both economic realities and the myriad problems inherent with electric vehicles.

Those problems were delineated in a 2009 report published by the Department of Energy’s Office of Vehicle Technologies, which said that despite the enormous investments being made in plug-in hybrid-electric vehicles and lithium-ion batteries, four key barriers stand in the way of their commercialization: cost, performance, abuse tolerance, and life. The key problem, according to these analysts: batteries. The report concludes that lithium-based batteries, which it calls “the most promising chemistry,” are three to five times too expensive, are lacking in energy density, and are “not intrinsically tolerant to abusive conditions.”

The energy density of batteries has been the biggest issue for electric cars for 100 years. By weight, gasoline contains about 80 times as much energy as even the best lithium-ion batteries. Of course, electric-car supporters will immediately retort that electric motors are about four times as efficient as internal-combustion engines. But even with that advantage, gasoline will still have 20 times the energy density of batteries. And that is an essential advantage when it comes to automobiles, where weight, storage space, and the distance one can travel without refueling are critical considerations.

Nevertheless, some true believers still contend that electric vehicles are for real. And some of those believers are writing unsigned editorials for the New York Times; just seven months ago, one such editorial proclaimed that “electric cars could eventually be a real game-changer.”

Um, yes, “could” and “eventually.” My advice: Don’t bother waiting by the wall socket in your garage.

— Robert Bryce, a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute, is the author, most recently, of Power Hungry: The Myths of “Green” Energy and the Real Fuels of the Future.



TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Politics/Elections; Technical
KEYWORDS: debt; default; economy; morons; obama
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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1 posted on 06/08/2011 11:56:55 AM PDT by neverdem
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To: neverdem

2064 will be fine. I’ll be 100 years old and not driving much anyway.


2 posted on 06/08/2011 11:59:59 AM PDT by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin! (look it up))
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To: neverdem

Socialists don’t CARE about physics. The just know what they want. Luddites, all of them - exept when it comes to new ways of butchering babies.


3 posted on 06/08/2011 12:00:24 PM PDT by Pecos (Constitutionalist. Liberty and Honor will not die on my watch.)
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To: neverdem

Equivalent Exchange. As if electric companies don’t use fossil fuels to supply electricity to the electric vehicles. That, and the burden of toxic batteries. You can’t create something out of nothing, unless your the big G.


4 posted on 06/08/2011 12:01:23 PM PDT by Palter (We can't afford a Republican or Dem President. We are broke.)
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To: neverdem

5 posted on 06/08/2011 12:04:02 PM PDT by Red Badger (Nothing is a 'right' if someone has to give it to you................)
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To: cripplecreek

6 posted on 06/08/2011 12:05:08 PM PDT by Red Badger (Nothing is a 'right' if someone has to give it to you................)
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To: neverdem

Do any of these people have a clue where electricity comes from? I asked a recent Volt owner “why?” ... he said this will be the beginning of saving the planet because fossil fuels are not depleted. I couldn’t believe it ... this guy, (supposedly, I now wonder) ... is a college graduate and a “middle executive” in a large organization. These people actually think electricity comes out of a socket ... but they haven’t a clue how it got there. I’m really amazed.


7 posted on 06/08/2011 12:05:20 PM PDT by ThePatriotsFlag (You are just jealous because the voices aren't talking to YOU!)
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To: neverdem

Maybe by 2064 this technology will be viable, but I sure don’t see it happening before then.

Since Obama is against both coal mining and nuclear energy, I suppose we are about to gear up for some major “D” battery production?


8 posted on 06/08/2011 12:07:27 PM PDT by Buckeye McFrog
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To: neverdem

These people are the type who think milk and beef are made in the store.


9 posted on 06/08/2011 12:08:22 PM PDT by lurk
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To: Buckeye McFrog

10 posted on 06/08/2011 12:09:19 PM PDT by Red Badger (Nothing is a 'right' if someone has to give it to you................)
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To: lurk

And think hunting is wrong but eat beef, pork, and chicken from the grocery store. The processing plants are much more animal friendly! s/


11 posted on 06/08/2011 12:11:58 PM PDT by proudtobeanamerican1 (A house divided against itself cannot stand.” Abraham Lincoln)
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To: neverdem

FUBO FUBO FOBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO
FUBO FUBO FOBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO
FUBO FUBO FOBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO
FUBO FUBO FOBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO
FUBO FUBO FOBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO
FUBO FUBO FOBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO
FUBO FUBO FOBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO
FUBO FUBO FOBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO
FUBO FUBO FOBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO
FUBO FUBO FOBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO
FUBO FUBO FOBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO
FUBO FUBO FOBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO
FUBO FUBO FOBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO
FUBO FUBO FOBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO
FUBO FUBO FOBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO
FUBO FUBO FOBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO FUBO


12 posted on 06/08/2011 12:12:17 PM PDT by AngelesCrestHighway
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To: neverdem

Unless GM can get the price of the Volt down $15,000 or more it’s going to be a car for the well off enviro-nazis as a status symbol.


13 posted on 06/08/2011 12:12:17 PM PDT by jazusamo (His [Obama's] political base---the young, the left and the thoughtless: Thomas Sowell)
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To: neverdem
Let's see now......

Does this here new fangled eeeee-lectric veehicle cost more than it's gasoline driven counterpart?

Does this here new fangled eeeee-lectric veehicle have batteries?

How do we re-charge these here batteries? (hint: electricity generated from an oil fired power plant)

How long do the batteries in this here eeeee-lectric veehicle last in normal usage? (hint: don't guess over three years).

How much do it cost to replace these here batteries? (hint: would about 10 grand give you pause?)

Yepper....let's all run right out and spend in excess of $28K to buy one of these here eeeeee-lectric veehicles!

Oh...I forget. Can a person without a job, whose had their home foreclosed and has no credit, get a loan to buy one of these here eeeeeee-lectric veehicles??

To say that the stain is a complete and total waste of air is to overstate the case by a very wide margin indeed.

14 posted on 06/08/2011 12:13:23 PM PDT by Logic n' Reason (The stain must be ERADICATED....NOW!!)
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To: neverdem

Electric cars are for those who can’t do an energy balance.

Not to mention the batteries have to go somewhere.


15 posted on 06/08/2011 12:13:59 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: cripplecreek

the idiot Volt defenders should be showing up shortly, led by what’s his name-truthguy?
The concept is a joke.


16 posted on 06/08/2011 12:14:50 PM PDT by bfree (The revolution is coming - OBAMI IS THE ENEMY OF FREEDOM)
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To: neverdem
Yep! Battery powered cars is the way to go! Just plug'er in and charge'er up! The electric company will supply all the power you need for that pollution free battery powered car!


17 posted on 06/08/2011 12:15:26 PM PDT by CharlyFord
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To: neverdem
If you tried hard enough, you could make them by 2015.

No one'd buy them, but you might be able to make them...

18 posted on 06/08/2011 12:17:38 PM PDT by Tanniker Smith (I didn't know she was a liberal when I married her.)
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To: neverdem
“become the first country to have 1 million electric vehicles on the road,” and he wanted it to happen by 2015

Management by fiat AKA "Thus I have spoken and so it shall be done". No truer sign that a person has no clue what they are talking about, in any walk of life.

19 posted on 06/08/2011 12:18:03 PM PDT by Drill Thrawl (Are you prepared?)
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To: Logic n' Reason
Can a person without a job, whose had their home foreclosed and has no credit, get a loan to buy one of these here eeeeeee-lectric veehicles??

Probably... through some government program or another, as long as they buy from Government Motors.

20 posted on 06/08/2011 12:19:13 PM PDT by Ingtar (Together we go broke (from a Pookie18 post))
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To: ThePatriotsFlag

These people actually think electricity comes out of a socket ... but they haven’t a clue how it got there. I’m really amazed.

Why, doesn’t electricity come from unicorns that crap skittles? Or is it pixie dust?


21 posted on 06/08/2011 12:19:54 PM PDT by Fred Hayek (FUBO, the No Talent Pop Star pResident.)
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To: Red Badger
Well, I'm planning on getting one of these electric gators for the small farm in Kentucky. And on the roads in my area, people drive quadrunners from neighbor to neighbor, so this would be great for the road too. And with the solar power system I plan on installing, it will be doubly good.

BTW, I think the fedgov still gives up to a $6,000 tax CREDIT for buying one of them, so it's basically free.

22 posted on 06/08/2011 12:22:40 PM PDT by RobRoy (The US today: Revelation 18:4)
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To: Logic n' Reason
How do we re-charge these here batteries? (hint: electricity generated from an oil fired power plant)

Logic n' Reason you are short on both, because both start with data. This is data:

Almost NONE of the nation's electrical power comes from oil.

23 posted on 06/08/2011 12:24:52 PM PDT by Carry_Okie (Grovelnator Schwarzenkaiser, fashionable fascism one charade at a time.)
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To: RobRoy

So was John Stossel’s golf cart...............


24 posted on 06/08/2011 12:27:22 PM PDT by Red Badger (Nothing is a 'right' if someone has to give it to you................)
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To: Carry_Okie
Well...hell, son! Let's use all the clean burning, non-poluting coal we can git to fire up our powerplants!!

See...now that I have data...I can think just as "green" as you.

25 posted on 06/08/2011 12:28:35 PM PDT by Logic n' Reason (The stain must be ERADICATED....NOW!!)
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To: ThePatriotsFlag

Well actually, the point I believe is to make us less dependent on foreign oil. We only generate about 1% of our electricity from oil, the major contributor is coal. Im not sure if all our coal plants are clean coal or not, someone else may answer that if possible. In any case im not against these new hybrid electric cleaner technologies, I just dont think enough research has been done on them to make them viable, costwise aswell as performance wise. It will in a few years probably, with the main driver being big oil companies focusing more and more on renewables, aswell as cost reducing. In any case, we have more coal than the middle east has oil and we can keep going on our coal reserves for 200 years


26 posted on 06/08/2011 12:29:17 PM PDT by hannibaal
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To: ThePatriotsFlag
These people actually think electricity comes out of a socket ... but they haven’t a clue how it got there. I’m really amazed.

Hey, I used to know some idiot who thinks the same way.

27 posted on 06/08/2011 12:32:18 PM PDT by Arrowhead1952 (zero hates Texas and we hate him back.)
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To: neverdem

Well, in that case, is there any reason he shouldn’t be using them?


28 posted on 06/08/2011 12:33:58 PM PDT by paul51 (11 September 2001 - Never forget)
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To: neverdem

The president also wants America hamstrung, crippled. and laying in a ditch by 2016.


29 posted on 06/08/2011 12:39:03 PM PDT by PBRSTREETGANG
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To: Logic n' Reason
See...now that I have data...I can think just as "green" as you.

Care to explain that?

30 posted on 06/08/2011 12:46:33 PM PDT by Carry_Okie (Grovelnator Schwarzenkaiser, fashionable fascism one charade at a time.)
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To: Drill Thrawl

“and he wanted it to happen by 2015”

Well,,, he does think that it’s 2008 now.


31 posted on 06/08/2011 12:48:07 PM PDT by Dr. Bogus Pachysandra ( Ya can't pick up a turd by the clean end!)
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To: bfree
...the idiot Volt defenders should be showing up shortly, led by what’s his name-truthguy?

I'm here and ready with the truth because so many of you posting simply do not know what you are talking about.

Foremost among those is Robert Bryce himself, a journalist with no scientific or technical training either formal or practical. Bryce simply has not done his homework on the Volt. From the beginning GM only planned to produce 10,000 Volts in 2011. They will increase production to over 50,000 for 2012. Bryce's problem is that he thinks in a linear fashion. GM is releasing the Volt slowly in just a few markets because it's such a new and radical design. New technicians need to be trained to work on this vehicle. The first 10,000 units are already sold with people putting down deposits. Also many Volts are being leased because there are many who are cautious about such a new concept. These lease deals are not counted as sales.

So the problem with low sales is really a production problem. There are NO Volts setting around Chevy Dealership lots waiting to be sold. If you do not believe this, then go over to your local Chevy Dealership and see if you see any on the lot. Go ahead bfree. I'm calling you out right here and now. Take the challenge!

No the Chevy Volt owners are absolutely trilled with their cars. The car is fun to drive and very economical in the long run. Yes the first few years, this new technology will be expensive, but the price will come down just as it has with Wall TV's, Computers, and Cell Phones. A few of you here just might understand this.

For the record, Bryce was trashing the Volt, even before it was introduced. Now that's pathetic journalism.

The Volt has received many awards and accolates from the Motoring Press. It was "Car of the Year". It has a 5-star safety rating. I've stopped counting the awards it as won>. But if you really want to know how the Volt is doing, just ask those who have one:

Ask Volt Owners
32 posted on 06/08/2011 12:48:27 PM PDT by truthguy (Good intentions are not enough.)
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To: hannibaal
You aren't too bright. We make most of our electricity from coal, which is, in case you haven't noticed, a fossil fuel closely related to oil. Renewables cannot come close to producing the power this country needs even before electric cars are factored in. Plugging in a million electric vehicles every night and maybe twice a day will cause a massive strain on our capacity as it stands now, not to mention how pitiful our capacity will be if we go to "renewables"(solar, wind).

Unless a huge, and I mean gigantic, upgrade in batteries is achieved there is no future for electric cars and especially if we do away with coal fired plants, which should be augmented with nuclear power.

33 posted on 06/08/2011 12:49:37 PM PDT by calex59
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To: neverdem

Scroll down a little for the propaganda video for kids. ...also played from radio stations in upscale ski resorts.

Let’s Take a Ride in an Electric Car
http://www.peachygreen.com/green-kids/ride-in-an-electric-car


34 posted on 06/08/2011 12:50:01 PM PDT by familyop (Shut up, and eat your brains!)
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It blows my mind that the same idiots who complain about global warming and energy use, are pushing to have millions of cars plugged in to the electrical grid. California ALREADY had blackouts. The coal powered electric companies are getting slammed by the govt.....and they want to plug in a few million cars on top of it?

I won’t even get into the idea of having plug in cars in Montana, Texas, Wyoming and all over the sunbelt where you drive more than you do in urban areas.

This is as idiotic as using corn for ethanol for no gain environmentally and loss economically.

The older I get the more I realize we truly are living in a sort of unreality where the media puts forth a false version that most people just accept as truth without critical thinking.


35 posted on 06/08/2011 12:53:56 PM PDT by Crimson Elephant
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To: truthguy

Dumb a**! Enough said.


36 posted on 06/08/2011 12:54:13 PM PDT by calex59
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To: truthguy


Yes, accolates should be accolades. Spell Check didn't catch it or I missed it. Yes I know the difference. Don't bother to post.
37 posted on 06/08/2011 12:54:48 PM PDT by truthguy (Good intentions are not enough.)
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To: neverdem

Up yours Barack!!!


38 posted on 06/08/2011 12:58:06 PM PDT by blackie (Be Well~Be Armed~Be Safe~Molon Labe!)
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To: truthguy

It’s a 40K golf cart. You should buy 2 of them.


39 posted on 06/08/2011 1:11:49 PM PDT by Beagle8U (Free Republic -- One stop shopping ....... It's the Conservative Super WalMart for news .)
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To: Red Badger
"Mitsubishi 185-watt solar panels"

The Volt would need about 12 of those for a full, sunny day to get a full charge, along with a good charge controller, inverter, many switches with circuit protection and some expensive cabling (see copper prices). Nearly everyone who is not an electrical tech. would also have to pay a small fortune for the installation.

The batteries will degrade, and the car probably won't last very long. I have an old, two-ton, 4WD, six-cylinder gasser that's not very aerodynamic at all and gets about 23 miles to the gallon on windy highways with mountain passes. And it will pass most other newer vehicles, like they're sittin' still.

And BTW, I'm building a PV system for a home place that's way off the grid.


40 posted on 06/08/2011 1:13:22 PM PDT by familyop (Shut up, and eat your brains!)
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To: calex59

HAHAHAHA

Where did I mention that coal is not a fossil fuel?

1) We have the worlds largest reserve of coal
2) clean coal is actually way cleaner than burning oil
3) I already said that we generate most of our power from coal
4) I also mentioned that we are not at the level to rely on renewables.. clearly but you of course had to act like i said nothing.
5) My answer was a response to a poster who said well electricity comes from oil so we arent saving anything.. I retorted saying most of it is actually coal, and the whole point of maybe going electricity is to lower our dependence on OIL. Because if we dont need it for cars then we dont need it for anything since we produce our electricity from other methods namely coal and nuclear. The whole point is foreign dependence.

I dont even know what the hell you are attacking me on.. You just assumed a bunch of things I didnt even say and somehow came with the notion that I’m not bright. Actually I even said what you are saying in your post that renewables are unrealizable at the moment. And why would we even do away with clean coal plants?

My whole point was reducing dependence on oil.. not fossil fuels which would be completely retarded. Im talking from an economic point of view and not an environmental one which you seem to think I am.

Learn to read better before criticising people about their intelligence.


41 posted on 06/08/2011 1:14:44 PM PDT by hannibaal
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To: calex59

Actually rereading my post and then yours im completely dumbfounded at your response. Im guessing youre quite the old timer, cranky and a dwindling intellect.


42 posted on 06/08/2011 1:16:40 PM PDT by hannibaal
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To: Red Badger

...and a large battery array. And BTW, that would require a summer sunny day (12 hours) and drain the sized battery array by 50%, which I wouldn’t recommend. Better double the PV module and battery array, if the batteries are to last very long.


43 posted on 06/08/2011 1:18:15 PM PDT by familyop (Shut up, and eat your brains!)
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To: bfree
the Volt is the G.M. version of the Toyota Prius. It's a hybrid that doesn't plug in to anything. I don't know where you live, but I can see several Prius in the comp[any lot. They are all over the place in Calif.

Now, the car that makes no sense is the Nissan Leaf, unless you live in a city, have a short commute(< 20 miles R.T), and have over night to recharge. Not to mention it looks like the worst of French Car design.

I, OTOH, intend to get a version of the best selling car in Europe.

44 posted on 06/08/2011 1:20:33 PM PDT by muleskinner
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To: truthguy
Did you happen to receive the email with graphic photos of the guy who was cut in half after he had a head on with an 18 wheeler? He was texting while driving and crossed the center stripe. He was driving some kind of tiny car, it was impossible for me to tell if it was a Volt, Smart Car, Tata. I have led a pretty sheltered life and never seen a human body ripped into 2 pieces but if you are curious freepmail me your email address and I send it to you. I am not ready to drive anything that small so you are welcome to my coffin on 4 wheels.
45 posted on 06/08/2011 1:20:41 PM PDT by Ditter
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To: bfree
the Volt is the G.M. version of the Toyota Prius. It's a hybrid that doesn't plug in to anything. I don't know where you live, but I can see several Prius in the comp[any lot. They are all over the place in Calif.

Now, the car that makes no sense is the Nissan Leaf, unless you live in a city, have a short commute(< 20 miles R.T), and have over night to recharge. Not to mention it looks like the worst of French Car design.

I, OTOH, intend to get a version of the best selling car in Europe.

46 posted on 06/08/2011 1:20:41 PM PDT by muleskinner
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To: neverdem

Considering he won’t be President in 2015, can a real President just junk the whole idea?


47 posted on 06/08/2011 1:22:20 PM PDT by Colonel_Flagg ("It's hard to take the president seriously." - Jim DeMint)
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To: Red Badger

Oops...about six hours. But that’s about what some of the sunnier places in the USA (like here) get on many days. 12 modules would do it on sunny days. 2880 amp-hours of batteries would be recommended (720 x 4 - efficiency losses). More modules would be recommended for winter (assuming middle latitudes of the USA). Offhand guestimates.


48 posted on 06/08/2011 1:28:00 PM PDT by familyop (Shut up, and eat your brains!)
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To: neverdem

Since NObama is demanding that Federal purchases are of the Chevy Volt, his predictions might come true-—but at the expense of the American taxpayer.


49 posted on 06/08/2011 1:29:41 PM PDT by ridesthemiles
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To: bfree
the Volt is the G.M. version of the Toyota Prius. It's a hybrid that doesn't plug in to anything. I don't know where you live, but I can see several Prius in the company lot. They are all over the place in Calif.

Now, the car that makes no sense is the Nissan Leaf, unless you live in a city, have a short commute(< 20 miles R.T), and have over night to recharge. Not to mention it looks like the worst of French Car design.

I, OTOH, I intend to get a version of the best selling car in Europe. It's got 170.H.P. and is lighter than a Mini.

Yes, it's a FIAT. Fiat 500 Abarth. 42 M.P.G. with the 5 speed and a light foot.

You can get the 190 H.P. version if you don't mind a roll cage and other purpose built ergonomics. .

So much for Global Warming.

50 posted on 06/08/2011 1:35:13 PM PDT by muleskinner
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