RUSSIANS REPORT NAZI DRIVES HALTED IN FOUR SECTORS WITH HEAVY LOSSES (7/21/41)

Microfilm-New York Times archives, Monterey Public Library | 7/21/41 | Daniel T. Brigham, C. Brooks Peters, James MacDonald, Eugene Petroff, Robert P. Post

[BroJoeK]

Larry381 quoting Carell: "But Guderian remained silent. After what he had said what else could he, a commander in the field, say to the man who held the supreme political and military power?
A decision had been made by the politician, and there was nothing left for the soldiers to do."

Another great post, thanks!
Particularly interesting to note Guderian's reference to Soviet reserves from Siberia -- so the Germans DID know about those reserves!

I doubt if all the experts even today agree that Hitler's decision was, or was not, the best he could have made under the circumstances.
After all, the Soviets were already moving everything of value they could to east of the Urals, and Moscow was preparing to evacuate.
How then could Moscow be of any more value to Hitler than it was to Napoleon?
And a surge towards Moscow would allow Soviet armies in the South to escape encirclement.

In short, it's not clear to me whether Hitler or Guderian had the better ideas.

So what do our experts here think about it?

[Rinnwald]

Thanks for the clarification. I thought Percival ran the Malayan defense from Singapore.

At any rate, wasn’t he younger and “odder” looking?

[BroJoeK]

central_va: "So IYO the Pz Mk III/IV were better than the British MBT of the era?"

The Churchill and Panzer Mk IV both eventually had 75mm main guns and radios, but there the similarity ended.
The Mk IV had twice the speed and twice the range of a Churchill.

More important, the Churchill like the US Sherman, was designed for infantry support, not tank-on-tank battles.

The idea that a tank's first responsibility was to defeat enemy tanks (how can you "support infantry" otherwise?), took a long time to sink into the brains of allied commanders.

Even a US commander as famous as George Patton believed his Shermans were great at their assigned tasks, even though obviously inferior to their German opponents.

British Churchill:

German Panzer Mk IV:

[CougarGA7]

Hitler fancied himself the supreme strategist. Unfortunately for the Nazis he was not even close. With the attack on Russia he felt that it would convince Britain to surrender and that it would not require Moscow to achieve victory. On both counts he couldn’t have been more wrong and his generals knew it from the word go.

[CougarGA7]

As GOC of Malaya, Percival will ultimately be responsible for fortress Singapore as well. Brooke-Popham, as CnC of the Far East is responsible for Malaya and all the other British possessions in the east. He isn’t very well remembered because he was relieved of his command before Singapore fell handing command over to Sir Henry Pownall.

Percival is about 10 years younger than Brooke-Popham but they both have similar facial features.

[central_va]

The Tiger was a great tank, burt the Krauts could have built 5 MK IV’s for every MK VI they produced. The Tiger was a dumb decision.

[Homer_J_Simpson]

Did you watch WW2 on the History Channel last night? Some really interesting old films never before seen.

No chance. My paid job is fairly demanding at the moment so all my free time goes to preparing the daily posts. I am working on August 2 today. I had hoped to have a 20 day supply at this point, with a 30 day suppy by the end of the year. It may still happen but it will be a struggle.

[PzLdr]

I disagree. The Germans were never going to be able to match U.S/ Soviet tank production. The Mark IV was marginally better than the Sherman, but not as good as the upgunned T-34. But look at the effect of the Tigers in Normandy, North Africa and Russia. It was all out of proportion to the numbers. The individual Tiger was a force multiplier by itself. Quality had a quantity all its own.

I will agree the Germans should not have over-engineered eith the Tiger or the Panther, and therefore produced more of them. or would I have been opposed to concentrating on Panther production.

But having said that, I beleive the Germans took the correct approach. And that philosophy is alive and well in the M1Abrams and its’ variants.

[BroJoeK]

PzLdr: "Quality had a quantity all its own."

Nice turn of phrase. ;-)

It would be interesting to learn, of all the Panzer Vs and Tigers produced, how did they meet their ends?
In other words, how many survived the war, how many were defeated by other tanks, destroyed by artillery fire, or just broke down (i.e., ran out of gas) on the road?

And you'd need to look at Eastern versus Western Fronts.

The reason I say this is because, if you compare to reports from the time, those later German tanks seem to have acquired more significance in historical perspective than they were originally admitted to have.

For examples, consider the "Battle of the Bulge" in late 1944.
Hitler threw the latest and best he had at allied lines, including his biggest tanks.
And the result was?

[central_va]

artillery fire

My guess not many Panzers were knocked out by artillery fire because indirect artillery fire is mostly ineffective against armored targets( in the 1940's there were no arty munitions like the copper head etc.) and direct artillery fire requires a dual purpose weapon like the 88. As Allies didn't do much direct artillery fire at armored targets like the Krauts because the true crew operated anti-tank weapons were just to light to knock out a Mk V or VI..

[BroJoeK]

central_va: "My guess not many Panzers were knocked out by artillery fire..."

You are likely correct, and statistics might show it.
But another category which comes to mind is air-attacks, by both ground assault aircraft -- i.e., P-41 Thunderbolt -- and strategic bombers.

Here I'm thinking about the break-out from Normandy, where the Allies finally grew tired of fritzing around with the Germans, and brought in their heavy bombers.
The result was, many Americans including a general, killed by our own bombers, but also the destruction of German opposition in front of Patton's army.

And how many German tanks were destroyed by aircraft, soon after, in the Falaise pocket?

[central_va]

During a WWII artillery or mortar barrage the safest place to be was probably inside a Panzer.

[BroJoeK]

central_va: "During a WWII artillery or mortar barrage the safest place to be was probably inside a Panzer."

Sure, if what's firing at you is one of these 75 mm howitzers:

But these 90 mm guns were intended as both anti-aircraft and anti-tank, similar to German 88's.

More to the point, both the 155 mm Long Toms and the 240 mm Black Dragons could make a mess of any but the heaviest armor.
If nothing else, they would spill your coffee and spoil your morning. ;-)
Long Tom:

Black Dragon:

[PAR35]

Late getting to the dirty pictures this week. I hit the daily post early before you got it up, and forgot to come back. Nekkid sunbathing and a woman giving herself a ‘chest massage’.

[CougarGA7]

I was really surprised I hadn’t heard from you on that one. I was sitting there reading that one feeling pretty safe and then when I got to the sunbathing part and say they had a full nekkid backside on it I thought, “I’m going to hear about this”.

[Rebelbase]

“Minesweepers USS Velocity, Tumult, Token laid down.”

A couple of years late to this thread. The Velocity was my dad’s ship in the last year of the war.

[Homer_J_Simpson]

It is good you pointed out your personal angle, even if a little tardy.

It is kind of fun to revisit an older thread to see how much things have changed. It also reminded me how much I miss Larry381's excerpts and photos and CougarGA7's Life mag posts.

[Homer_J_Simpson]

It also reminded me how much I miss Larry381's excerpts and photos and CougarGA7's Life mag posts.

That was not a hint, just a wistful remark.

[CougarGA7]

I do apologize. I’m really just out of time most of the time and was having a hard time remaining consistent about the posts. That’s why I stopped at the beginning of the year. I still will be writing the year end article as always, there is no way I would not do that.