Posted on 08/23/2011 5:05:54 PM PDT by nickcarraway
“Everybody wants to blame the victims, the other men in the unit.”
I don’t blame his peers. I do wonder about the command though - to put a guy that falls asleep often into positions of such importance. Don’t the Marines have cooks? Put him back in the rear peeling potatoes or what not.
Crash course here. Many times mental issues are too often the direct cause and affect of physical ones yes even depression or anxiety. The problem is doctors not following through and doing enough medical history work up.
Ever hear of shell shock? A physical or cognitive reaction triggered by say a sudden noise sometimes found in combat vets? OK Let's say SGT Joe was on a 155 for several years. Sgt Joe either in the field or later on after he gets out starts having problems with things like certain noises. Joe almost goes nuts. Why? The shrink at V.A. checks and says Joe you have anxiety and depression here have some Zoloft. Joe gets worse. If in his unit his work goes downhill. He gets tired real easy and jumpy. It becomes a game to walk up behind him and drop a clipboard.
Joe gets bad quarterly evals or looses his civilian job. The depression worsens. Joe looses a rank and come re-up time is not recommended for retention. Joe becomes a hated man in his unit and they are glad to see him gone.
Joe goes to his doctor. Doctor says you obviously need more Zoloft Joe. Joe takes more. Joe a few weeks later freaks out and either kills self or family screaming something like stop, go away, leave me alone, before it happens. That is worse case senerio.
Please bear with me a bit longer.Other scenario. Joe goes to the clinic. The doctors do a complete physical work up including checking Joe's hearing. The doctor comes in and says Joe you have hearing loss and likely Inner Ear damage. This can in some cases cause anxiety and depression and we think this might be wan issue with you so we want to treat this. OK Joe let's send you home on 90 days medical leave in which time you need to take some motion sickness medications and lets try you on a tranquilizer like Valium or Xanax at a low dose and see if that helps.
Joe takes the leave and reports back feeling somewhat better but not ready to return to his unit. The doctors says Joe it looks like the damage is permanent. This will not kill you but this is what is making you so on edge and depressed and we can treat it as you see. We are processing you out on medical disability. Joe safely goes home.
Am I a liar LOL? I had a cousin a NAM Vet. He had that happen to him after he came home. He was not the first Joe. He got the right help. He had damaged Inner Ears from childhood infections and his two tours. He spent thousands on testing and a semi retired General Practitioner told him the same thing I did a year earlier as to what was likely wrong. How do I know about this sort of stuff anyway?
In I've worked around loud turbine type noises in the Navy. I was at Ft Stewart in 1984 assigned to a Howitzer Battery at my local NG unit there on two weeks training.
I was an ammo hauler and it was night. We had delivered rounds , powder, and fuses to the guns and were hitting the hay about 75 feet from the guns. I was on the back rack of the truck asleep and didn't hear Fire Mission not that I had any clue as to what it meant anyway. A full battery shot went off.
Ten years later I am on disability for Anxiety, Depression, and PTSD. It took several years to determine I had Sensory Processing damage and the antidepressants were making it worse. At any point I could have became Joe number one. Not that I was a killer but because treatment number one in my case could trigger a medication reaction similar to taking LSD. You would be very surprised at the nuber of doctors writing scrips for antidepressants who never heard of Serotonin Syndrome.
My PTSD came from some civilian events after I got out that all added together caused a huge mess. I'm PTSD and depression free. But I still have what vets would refer too as shell shock. Actually I was born with it too a certain extent. Certain noises or visual events and I can not handle it as I will have seizures.
I got a related question for you. Wasn't there some stories about the Pentagon having troops taking meds in the field? I read the rumors and I'm not certain as too the validity. If they were SSRI type drugs they can cause serious behavioral and even deadly neurological issues in some folks who seem to be otherwise normal. I've seen a case of full blown adverse reaction to antidepressants before. It ain't something you want too see again.
This reminds me of a situation once when I was in basic infantry training. We had been out in the field over a week and were all very much dragged out. After one forced march we settled in for the evening. I was paired with a fellow of my age to sleep in a pup tent and have guard duty. This other guy was as helpless as teats on a boar. He was constantly just dozing off or acting such. I knew we were all field tired but this guy was something else. The crowning occasion was when the two of us were assigned a night patrol and I found out that besides wanting to rest all the time the guy was ‘night blind’ and had to be hand led from and back to the departure spot. I never learned what happened to the guy after basic but I wound up in a line for the invasion of Japan which never came.
On Subs they did when I was in. But I was on the America 77-80 a flat top. A buddy of mine in my department was Bi-Polar. Rather than help he got a BCD if I remember right. I know he was up for Second Class and when he got out was an E-1. Near 4.0's to that in a short time. Some of the lifers got their kicks making him go off. He needed out of the Navy that was obvious. But he also needed serious help before they released him.
Yea that was one bad explosion. Worse one we had was a DFT line in 3 MMR ruptured into #5 switchboard and we lost the Main plus that switchboard. Worse fire was in 78 in the yards in a storeroom off hanger bay 2. That one transferred heat too the 02 level where it was buckling the floor tiles in the Barber Shop I saw that for myself and was on the hose team cooling it. A guy from my shop and myself found the fire. We were off duty but geared up as investigators while the duty team handled the fire.
Different missions.
“Not really.”
Yes. Absolutely. That doesn’t mean the watch on a ship is not dangerous, but there is an adrenalin and large difference in the mission. The technology is the best in the world and a mechanical screw up is rare. On the line, there is a determined enemy attempting to kill you, planning to kill you...up close and personal.
There needs to be an avenue for getting the liability out of the field asap or people will do what they have to do, to survive.
“It is becoming far more an issue now because a very limited number of troops are doing the patrols etc meaning less patrol rotations in combat and more time in country as well. This was that guys first time in country. How much more so is it possible for a third or forth tour member too snap?”
Utter BS. True, but invalid. The situation on deployments is irrelevant to this situation. Nobody else in this unit was consistently falling asleep. This was an individual situation, unrelated to external factors.
The sad thing is that they will punish the enlisted grunt for assaulting this guy, when the person who is responsible is the person who had the authority to get him out of the field...and didn’t.
” The fact he was there a fourth time says break down in the chain of command likely brought on from the fact there are simply not enough active duty and reservist to do the job any more.”
More irrelevant BS. Individual failure. Your opinions on them being there is clouding your analysis.
“Until the conditions which are causing these issues too develop are addressed by Congress in the form of more troops or get out of a two-three nation war at current End Troop Strengths it will not go away.”
LOL...again, your political opinion doesn’t matter relating to this guy failing to accomplish common tasks that would keep him and his fellow Marines alive.
” The fact he was there a fourth time says break down in the chain of command likely brought on from the fact there are simply not enough active duty and reservist to do the job any more.”
More irrelevant BS. Individual failure...
I think you're so determined to contradict this guy, you're contradicting yourself as well. Both of you agree that someone higher up should have done something differently. As to why it didn't happen, we don't know.
I didn’t accuse you of being hysterical. I accused you of being rude and lacking class. Big difference!!
Bless you for your service. My father also waited for the invasion that never came. I’m one of those types who don’t like to hear about Hiroshima.
I correct myself: I accused YOUR POST of being rude and lacking class.
Tell it too my shipmates that died in peace time deployments. My shop also ran the morge. I came close to buying the farm several times. I have a Bubblehead Buddy who about got killed on a sub. One of the most dangerous jobs on a ship besides your regular job is being what is called a One on One. Death is Death.
“It is becoming far more an issue now because a very limited number of troops are doing the patrols etc meaning less patrol rotations in combat and more time in country as well. This was that guys first time in country. How much more so is it possible for a third or forth tour member too snap?”
The man was a reservist not an active duty. Looked at reserves units deploying lately vs active duty? You don't see a problem? Uh OK. Sure.
Medically and mentally neither the US Army nor the USMC can make a man work beyond what his mental and physical limitations are for very long and not end up with less than desirable results in the end. Even a SEAL Team has significant stand downs. But to some when the string streched too far does snap it the strings fault?
This was the fouth time this happened and you do not see it as a Chain of Command breakdown issue likelt from pressures of over deployments? Nah of course not. Not in your perfect military world.
He could have been a medical disorder. There is a medical disorder that causes one to go to sleep when under stress. There was a guy in the Army Air Forces in World War II that had it. He was stationed in the Pacific ad flew B-17s. He would go to sleep on the bomb run. Jay Zeamer was his name. He earned the Congressional medal of Honor.
The blanket party cheerleaders seem to be mostly soldier wannabes; either that or their military careers were somewhat ... unsuccessful.
This kind of assault only works in the movies, not in the real world. Peer correction can be very successful, but beating someone like Michael Vick’s dog will only work on someone with a dog-level intellect. Not a lot of those in todays military (except in the tiny minds of liberals).
This sergeant (soon-to-be a rock-busting private) must have called in the psycho squad for shits and grins, because no one with two brain cells to rub together could possibly think an adult could be “corrected” by getting beaten up. The chain of command is very lucky this Marine took himself out first, rather than going after his assailants.
The leadership and discipline in this unit was atrocious. It seems several Marines let down the Corps, and careers should be ended by this.
btw, if one sleeping guard is a danger to the platoon (which it is) then a whole squad dedicated to kicking the snot out of the guard is just like opening the gate.
“Tell it too my shipmates that died in peace time deployments.”
Big difference between danger and the mission. You claimed that the mission is not different, Yet they certainly are.
“Looked at reserves units deploying lately vs active duty? You don’t see a problem? Uh OK. Sure.”
Sure there is a problem. But it’s irrelevant. This was an individual problem.
“But to some when the string stretched too far does snap it the strings fault?”
Again, the other strings in this unit seemed to be fine as far a staying awake in a combat zone.
“This was the fouth time this happened and you do not see it as a Chain of Command breakdown”
I’m not sure if it is a chain of command issue or a procedural issue. If the procedures were not in place to get this guy out of the combat zone after the second incident, then it was more of a procedural issue.
You are so quick to point the blame at others and so reluctant to blame the initial cause of the tragedy, the sleeper.
You yourself said that the person responsible was the person who had the authority to get him out of the field, and didn’t.
“You yourself said that the person responsible was the person who had the authority to get him out of the field, and didn’t.”
That is the person responsible for the fact that this situation degraded and resulted into this tragedy. The other scenario would have been worse where several of the unit would have been killed or maimed.
Yet the initial cause is this individual who broke down. Two separate issues. Both at fault.
I do not deny your general point.
My first thought is why was this Marine trusted with guard duty AFTER his second time falling asleep when he was supposed to be guarding an area that was said to be in an “enemy active” zone?
...and I should add that we both assuming that that person had a military procedure for getting him out of there quickly. That would be an interesting area for somebody to research. That information is critical is preventing this scenario from developing in the future.
Agreed. Hence the need for top physical conditioning along with (dare I say it) young men who are best capable of enduring these conditions.
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