Posted on 11/29/2011 10:58:46 PM PST by Kevmo
Defkalion: “We have Rossi’s formula”
Av: Mats Lewan
Publicerad igår, 10:13 4 kommentarer
Tomorrow on Wednesday the Greek company Defkalion will present products similar to Andrea Rossi’s 'E-cat', claiming that the technology is developed in-house. But Defkalion earlier told Ny Teknik that it has 'the formula of Rossi' .
“Let’s say I have the formula of Rossi, but I’m not saying it officially. My scientists found a way to make it. They need three months.”
That is what Alexandros Xanthoulis, representative of Defkalion Green Technology’s owners, told Ny Teknik in a telephone conversation on August 5, 2011 .
“I know what he’s got in the reactor, I know everything. It was a spectroscopy made by the University of Siena. (...) They tried his reactor without him understanding what they did,” he continued .
Xanthoulis contacted Ny Teknik the day after Rossi unilaterally terminated his agreement with Defkalion. Among other things, the agreement gave Defkalion exclusive rights in Greece and the Balkans for production and distribution of the “E-cat” – Rossi’s invention that might produce heat through a hitherto unknown form of nuclear reaction .
At a press conference in June 2011 Defkalion presented sketches on a range of products – “Hyperion” – built around Rossi’s technology, with control and regulation systems, remote monitoring, heat exchangers and other peripherals developed by Defkalion .
When Rossi terminated the agreement in August, he stressed that no knowledge of the core technology had been transferred to Defkalion. The Hyperion products thus seemed to have no future .
During the telephone conversation with Ny Teknik, Xanthoulis expressed considerable uncertainty about Rossi’s intentions. However, he made clear that he was not going to use the knowledge of Rossi’s reactor and that he wanted "fair play" .
He also explained that his researchers had found ways to improve the technology. According to Xanthoulis, Rossi could not run the reaction more than 24 hours, and when Defkalion required a 48 hour test it supposedly led to a conflict with Rossi .
“It’s very simple but they didn’t think about it. (...) We solved the problem. Because the problem is that he cannot spread the reaction all over the pipe, and all the heating is concentrated in the middle”, Xanthoulis told Ny Teknik .
A few days after the phone conversation, Defkalion announced that it continued the project, despite the breach of contract. Defkalion has also continued to offer licenses for the production of Hyperion products to EUR 40.5 million per factory .
Tomorrow on Wednesday November 30th, Defkalion has planned a presentation of its products, and has announced that the the technology will be certified and tested by an independent party .
In contrast to Xanthoulis’ information about Defkalion’s possessing ' the formula of Rossi', the company now states that its technology is developed in-house and that it is not based on Rossi’s technology .
Among other things, Defkalion posted in a forum on its website: “E-cats (or energy catalyzers) are E-cats and Hyperions are Hyperions. We can assure you that they are not the same ‘thing’ with just different names.”
On Ny Teknik's request we received the following comment to the conversation in August:
"So much has changed since August, many minor events and issues have taken place making it hard to tie the story together with a few words of Alex back then. Defkalion is working on exothermic reactions between Nickel and Hydrogen. Our products have completely different technologies (encompassing electronics, engineering, materials) than from Rossi, even [if] we have understood where Rossi has made his mistakes."
Ny Teknik also asked for a comment from Rossi who declined, stating that he would never have anything to do with Defkalion again, and that what the company said or did could only be a matter for his lawyers, in the case that would be necessary .
Since the breach of contract in August, Rossi has continued to work on his technology and has made a number of semi-public demonstrations to some criticism of Defkalion which stated that Rossi used some technology developed by the Greek company .
On October 28 a test of a heating plant with a nominal thermal power of one megawatt, consisting of about one hundred E-cat modules, was performed. The test was made by an anonymous customer, according to Rossi a military organization, which officially approved the plant and then bought it .
Thereafter, the same customer has, still according to Rossi, placed an order for a further twelve similar plants which now supposedly are under construction. And yesterday Rossi announced that a heat plant had been sold to a customer who will let "a qualified public" visit it .
Rossi has said he is now taking pre-orders for a consumer version of the E-cat at 10 kilowatts of thermal power, stating that when he reaches 10,000 pre-orders, the interested parties will be offered to accept or decline to purchase the product for 400 Euros per kilowatt nominal thermal output, which would set the prize for a model of 10 kilowatts to 4,000 Euros .
Many have called for an independent test of the E-cat, but Rossi has rejected this and said that he now only has time for customers. According to Rossi, another reason is avoiding that further details of the invention reach his competitors, as it is not yet patented .
In addition to Defkalion, at least a dozen researchers worldwide are actively working with phenomena related to the concept of cold fusion or Low Energy Nuclear Reactions, LENR. However, no one has so far come close to the output power levels Rossi seems to have reached .
Most notable is perhaps Rossi’s compatriot Prof. Francesco Piantelli who previously conducted research with Rossi’s scientific adviser Prof. Sergio Focardi. Among other researchers often mentioned are Americans Michael McKubre, George Miley, Peter Hagelstein, Brian Ahern and Italian Francesco Celani who attended Rossi’s first public trial in January 2011 .
According to reliable sources to Ny Teknik, there are stakeholders who have tried to make commercial agreements with Rossi, and who are now actively seeking opportunities to invest hundreds of millions of dollars in this area .
The concept of cold fusion has generally been regarded as impossibility by the scientific community since the debate following a press conference on 23 March 1989 when researchers Fleischmann and Pons presented their results .
Despite this the phenomenon has since then been confirmed in hundreds of published scientific papers .
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READ MORE: Our complete coverage on Rossi's E-cat can be found here .
FAKTA Excerpt of Ny Teknik’s conversation with Alexandros Xanthoulis August 5
"Let’s say I have the formula of Rossi, but I’m not saying it officially. My scientists found a way to make it. They need three months, but I’m not going to play game behind Rossi. I’m not a cheater. We started together and if he has to be paid, he will. But his problem is scientifically solved by us .
Because we believe that his reactor cannot operate more than 24 hours .
When we requested 48 it was a problem. But my scientists found out the problems. I cannot reveal it right now. But the problem can be fixed by us. It’s very simple but they didn’t think about it. The same way more than a year ago when Rossi had never thought that his invention could create electricity. He had never thought about it until we told him."
(...)
"First of all, the first problem was with 48 hours, that’s for sure. And he had a huge fight with one of my scientists, Mr Hadjichristos, you’ve heard of him most probably, Yiannis, because we were insisting on 48 hours. But we know the problem; we didn’t tell him of course, we know the problem .
I know what he’s got in the reactor, I know everything. It was a spectroscopy (Greek: ‘fasmatoscopy’) made by the university of Siena. It was an equipment made by the University of Siena. It understands everything that’s inside the reactor. So we know the components."
Ny Teknik: Who did that?
"The University of Siena .
They tried his reactor without him understanding what they did. They checked it and we know what’s in the reactor .
So it’s a matter of two or three months that my scientists can reproduce that, but I’m not going to try it. I’m playing a fair game .
We solved the problem. The problems he’s got, we solved them. Because the problem is that he cannot spread the reaction all over the pipe, and all the heating is concentrated in the middle. So we found the solution."
(This quote is slightly adjusted for clarity through advice from Defkalion) .
FAKTA The E-cat
The 'energy catalyzer' is loaded with nickel powder and a number of secret catalysts and is pressurized with hydrogen gas. Excess heat is possibly produced via an unknown nuclear reaction, involving nickel and hydrogen .
Several semipublic tests have been made to demonstrate the release of net energy but no independent tests have yet been done .
On October 28, 2011, a heat plant composed by 107 Ecat modules was tested by an anonymous customer. In a report the customer claimed a released net power of 479 kW in self sustained mode .
- - - -
As the Scam Turns.
The Ecats of Our Lives.
All My Ecats.
General Ecats
Where did you ever see me say/write I believe in Rossi's Ecat? My lack of shared certitude in your faith does not mean I have certitude in the opposite direction.
I'm just irritated at the poor logic frequently put forth by many detractors. If Rossi's Ecat turns out a scam, one tragedy is that many people will declare themselves vindicated, despite months of poor logic and lousy arguments that will turn out to have been unrelated to the truth when it comes out.
Unlike the geometric logic of Kevmo and Captain Queeg.
Continuing to go along with this as a thought experiment - I wonder what safety standards would apply to an electrically energized, nuclear powered water heating device? The market will be near nil unless manufacturers can affix a UL/CSA/CE mark. Any installation by an end user would likely void their site liability or homeowners insurance policy.
Has anyone done more than pay lip service to this issue? Defkalion says it will be certified by an independent lab. As one who has dealt with electrical, fire safety and food service equipment certification, I can tell you this won’t be trivial. Just another real world fly for the ointment...
Dr Ray Stantz: You know, it just occurred to me that we really haven't had a successful test of this equipment.
Dr. Egon Spengler: I blame myself.
Dr. Peter Venkman: So do I.
Dr Ray Stantz: Well, no sense in worrying about it now.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Why worry? Each one of us is carrying an unlicensed nuclear accelerator on his back.
Just be careful not to cross the streams...
Then go and prove that Defkalion is just another shell company. Expose the scam once and for all.
The golden ring lies before you.
I’m sorry, but I don’t read Greek, and I’m unfamiliar with Greek corporate law. I am familiar with US corporate law and with researching companies here. I have to rely on someone else to provide evidence proving that Defkalion is unrelated to Rossi. Until that evidence appears, I will assume that it is the same as every other “customer” and “partner” of Rossi’s to date: a related entity.
I assume nothing as I have no proof, and don’t plan to make definitive statements as if they are truth.
You don’t have any proof about the true nature of Defkalion, but you DO have truth about Rossi’s other “customers” and “partners.” If the latter are shell companies related to Rossi, why wouldn’t the former be?
Because no one has established a definite link. Until they do, what I read from them is they were able to overcome some of the problems Rossi couldn’t and have made the tech more viable. That is within the realm of possibility, and a simpler explanation than a scam.
Not that I’m ruling out a scam on Defkalion’s part. Just not ruling it in yet either, and also not ruling in that they are in on it with Rossi.
Actually, “scam” is the simplest possible explanation, especially when the man in question is Rossi, a convicted scammer.
I was not aware he was convicted as a scammer, but was convicted for breaking a law that was passed after he was already in business that made his product illegal ex-post facto.
Like Hydrogen through an E-cat
so are the days of our lives...
LOL. I hope you don’t mind if I use that here on FR.
I was not aware he was convicted as a scammer, but was convicted for breaking a law that was passed after he was already in business that made his product illegal ex-post facto.That's Rossi's version of events. The facts are considerably more damning. He was also convicted of money laundering, tax evasion and racketeering related to Petrol Dragon, as well as convicted of fraud and tax evasion on the totally unrelated "gold shipment" scam.
I've collected a large number of references you might want to check out before you reach any conclusions about Rossi's credibility. The LINK is just a few posts above this one.
I think that the involvement of Defkalion is really quite clever. They will no doubt be able to shrug off any customer complaints based on unexpected trouble in copying Rossi's design. This could well insulate them from many legal traps.
I am amused that at practically the same time that Defkalion claims "My scientists found a way to make it. They need three months", they have also released a multi-page specification which calls out "10mWh" for "Controls and safety/operational electronics".
We are to believe that Defkalion is as yet uncertain of exactly how to make the working mechanism, but they are certain that it will take "10mwh" to power the controls.
I think that the involvement of Defkalion is really quite clever.If you assume that there are no working devices, I could see this playing out as follows:
Rossi and Defkalion are secretly working together. They are each collecting money from investors who must agree to strict non-disclosure contracts, so they can't blab and ruin the scam.
Meanwhile, Rossi and Defkalion start suing each other over various matters. They then use the lawsuits as an excuse to not actually deliver any devices.
They keep collecting investor's money and keep up the lawsuits as long as practical, then they shut down their operation and fade into the woodwork.
The investors believe that all their money was "wasted" on the lawsuits and wander off to find another scheme in which to invest.
The secret to a successful scam is to take the victim's money without letting the victim even know that they've been scammed.
Yes. And on top of that, the victim won't even be certain who lost their money. Defkalion will claim that it had rights to Rossi's invention and were unsuccessful at stealing it. Rossi will claim that his results were encouraging but that for reasons not understood he can no longer demonstrate the effect. I'm sure that he will be very dedicated in trying to reproduce his early "successes".
Good points.
But the upside is tremendous once you acknowledge the reality of commercially available LENR. You start in industrial before you go to homeowners, just like was done for so many products preceding it.
Disruptive technology makes waves even among non-technology industries. For instance, let’s say you’re the first homeowner insurance company to allow ecats — that could give you an edge over your competition.
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