Wind Power and the free market

Institute for Energy Research ^ | 1/4/2012 | Robert Murphy

[Army Air Corps]

Ping.

[steelyourfaith]

Thanx for the ping Army Air Corps !

 

Beam me to Planet Gore !

[Lakeshark]

Other than for those who need intermittent power off the grid, until they figure out how to store energy from wind and solar, they are losers in the true energy market.

So far they can only make it via government mandates and subsidies.

[oldenuff2no]

When wind can be made to blow on demand where, and when instantly necessary to full fill peak demand some of this may in fact turn out to be true. Until that ability arrives wind will never be dependable.
Any reasoning person should be able to see this fallacy. Ask some of the folks up on the Columbia river about wind and solar energy. When they had record rainfall last year and the water storage for hydro power was huge the power companies simply quit buying the solar and wind generated power. Bio fuels is also taking a huge dump right now. Although this fuel can be harvested and stored until the energy is needed it is now head to head with the super cheap and plentiful natural gas. Most bio fuels plants have already shut down or are about to. I wish these feel good stories were true and real, but they are not. Without government subsidies and laws that force the purchase of wind solar and bio fuel generated electrical power these sources of power can't exist. The market does not want them and is not well suited for the time limitations involved in their production. Electrical power has to be delivered on demand when demanded. Not just when the sun shines or the wind blows. Sorry.

[bigbob]

ALL forms of energy receive government subsidies. Wind and solar receive less than some others:

This is 2007 data but I've seen newer charts and the relative subsidy amounts have not changed much.

[Capt. Tom]

Here is Scituate MA, we have a wind turbine coming to town in mid January. The Tower is 263 feet high and the blades are 120 feet long.
It cost 6 million dollars of taxpayers money.

Here are some interesting points.
It was designed in --GERMANY.
It was built in -----CHINA.

It will come from China by ship and be offloaded in Providence RI, and in sections be trucked to Scituate,MA

I guess Americans can't competitively design or make wind turbines. - tom

[Lakeshark]

Coal, gas, nuclear, hydro, and oil actually feed the grid and work.

Wind and solar have never truly been a genuine source for feeding the grid, and they can't unless an inexpensive way to store power is developed.

[FlingWingFlyer]

I wonder how much money the commie ‘RAT elitists have made by outlawing oil and coal and investing their money in wind and solar. I think that I smell corruption here but I can’t be sure.

[Recon Dad]

Considering wind represents less than 1% of energy produced in this country this chart is a joke. You have to base subsidies on a megawatt hour basis so everything is equal.

For example, total federal subsidies in fiscal year 2007 were $23.37 per megawatt hour for wind, compared with $0.44 for conventional coal and $0.25 for natural gas and petroleum liquids.[2] In fiscal year 2010, they were even higher. Wind’s subsidies amounted to $56.29 per megawatt hour, while the figures for coal, and natural gas and petroleum liquids, were tied at a mere $0.64.[3]

[G Larry]

Didn’t I read that over 4,000 windmill have been abandoned in place, since the subsidies for them stopped?

Are you aware that States and Municipalities have “legislated” the % of “renewable” power some utilities MUST provide?
Here’s how they do it.
XCEL must provide 10% of its power from “renewable sources”.
When the wind doesn’t blow and the sun doesn’t shine, coal and gas fired plants make up the difference......BUT!!!
...they bookkeep and allocate that power to the “renewable” column....
How pitiful and corrupt is that?

[thackney]

Do the same chart in $/kWH

[G Larry]

This data is meaningless with correlating dollars per kwh!!!

[Recon Dad]

14,000 abandoned wind turbines

Minnesotans for Global Warming report that in the last 30 years, the United States has had 14,000 wind turbines abandoned. Apparently, once the subsidies and the wind run out, these 20-story high Cuisinarts are de-bladed and retired. This means more bats and migratory birds will live.
From Minnesotans for Global Warming: “The symbol of Green renewable energy, our savior from the non existent problem of Global Warming, abandoned wind farms are starting to litter the planet as globally governments cut the taxes that consumers pay for the privilege of having a very expensive power source that does not work every day for various reasons like it’s too cold or the wind speed is too high.”
Andrew Walden of American Thinker explored nearly 2 years ago the demise of the 37-turbine wind farm at Kamaoa Wind Farm in Hawaii: “Built in 1985, at the end of the boom, Kamaoa soon suffered from lack of maintenance. In 1994, the site lease was purchased by Redwood City, CA-based Apollo Energy. Cannibalizing parts from the original 37 turbines, Apollo personnel kept the declining facility going with outdated equipment. But even in a place where wind-shaped trees grow sideways, maintenance issues were overwhelming. By 2004 Kamaoa accounts began to show up on a Hawaii State Department of Finance list of unclaimed properties. In 2006, transmission was finally cut off by Hawaii Electric Company.California’s wind farms — then comprising about 80% of the world’s wind generation capacity — ceased to generate much more quickly than Kamaoa. In the best wind spots on earth, over 14,000 turbines were simply abandoned. Spinning, post-industrial junk which generates nothing but bird kills.”
When an honest history of this period in the United States is written, it will no be kind to the corporate cronyism that preyed upon public ignorance of earth science to create a crisis — global warming — to exploit and loot the Treasury.

[Recon Dad]

The costs per KWH were in the article I don’t think they fit Big Bob’s take on wind.

[Tublecane]

“ALL forms of energy receive government subsidies”

Yes, but only some of them would still exist as industries without them.

“Wind and solar receive less than some others”

Well, yeah, but that’s apples and oranges. Of course coal and nukes will get more Big Mother’s milk. Wind and solar are baby industries, and a baby can only suckle so much.

[Tublecane]

“Wind and solar are baby industries”

Oh, and in case this was unclear, they are baby industries because as energy producers they are losers and as investments they are sinkholes.

[thackney]

I know, I just wanted to see if I would get an honest response.

I also wish I could find one that didn't consider normal tax breaks applied to all domestic manuafacturing listed as a subsidy for oil and gas.

And while I'm wishing, I would like to find one that also credited in the taxes paid for the net.

[thackney]

Wind has continued to grow in their subsidies.

Now, not only a per energy unit basis is wind larger but even measured in dollars it is more than oil, gas and coal combined.

Subsidies for Energy Production in FY 2010

Source	Total Federal Expenditures ($ bn)	Energy Output (Qbtu)	Subsidy in $/mmbtu
Coal	1.358	23.940	0.057
Oil and gas	2.820	38.730	0.073
Solar	1.134	0.004	274.180
Wind	4.986	0.323	15.439
Hydro	0.216	2.920	0.074
Nuclear	2.499	8.770	0.285
Biofuels	7.761	4.700	1.651
Geothermal	0.273	0.052	5.260
All Renewables (except hydro)	14.154	5.079	2.787
Total	21.047	79.354	0.265

http://www.masterresource.org/2011/11/energy-subsidies-sense/

[vpintheak]

Here in Fairbanks Alaska, we are building a wind farm. The ONLY reason we can do it is because the cost of oil is so freaking high, wind is actually cheaper. Also the state and federal government has given money for the project. If it were not for government “free” money, and the high price of oil, this would be an idiotic investment.
As it is, it will actually produce power at a lesser cost that oil fired power plants. Sad, sad, sad.