Posted on 10/05/2012 8:22:55 PM PDT by djone
"The smoothbore fowling piece is the oldest style of backwoods home firearm in America; hell, they came over on the Mayflower. They've come a long way. Today's hunting shotguns, particularly when you look at turkey guns, tend to be rapid-firing pump guns and, hugely, semiautomatics. The ones you'll find at a practical shooting match (check on Hulu and watch an episode of "Three Gun Nation" to see what I'm talking about) have been tricked out with extended magazines and high-tech sights. "
(Excerpt) Read more at backwoodshome.com ...
It’s not the past cases that matter, it’s that YOU could be the first. There are some interactions of common practice vs. letter of law which have not been a problem ONLY because anti-gun prosecutors aren’t smart enough to take advantage of what’s available to abuse.
I’ve talked with Ayoob about the issue; he feels it’s his job to explain what _could_ be a problem for you, what your best options are, and leave it to you whether you wish to take risk A or risk B, both of which are nonetheless risks.
Small town cop shop. No need for heavy duty cops there. A few patrol officers, a few admin, and one ‘investigator’. Not exactly a place with homicides or organized crime.
“Small town cop shop. No need for heavy duty cops there. A few patrol officers, a few admin, and one ‘investigator’. Not exactly a place with homicides or organized crime.”
Investigating cow tipping and joy rides on tractors, eh? Not a great career path.
Any representations by a DA on super hot loads must be started by the coroner. Those representations will be confirmed or shown to be without merit using ballistic gelatin matrices. End of story.
“Any representations by a DA on super hot loads must be started by the coroner. “
Not true. The DA is not restricted to any evidence. the Coroner provides cause fo death and probable method. The DA could just as easily take whatever rounds remain in your gun, your home, your reloading bench, and test them for velocity. However, not a single case of that has ever been documented.
“Must” was too strong a word. Let us say that any representation of super hot loads will be tested against a ballistic gelatin matrix and the results entered into evidence with an opinion stated to the jury.
“Let us say that any representation of super hot loads will be tested against a ballistic gelatin matrix “
Uh, no. DA’s offices don’t even bother with gelatin. That doesn’t prove a “hot load” velocity. Only a chronograph can do that, and I don’t know a DA’s office or a crime lab with one. Bullet velocity simply has never in any case been an issue.
And will not be an issue as the remaining bullets can be tested with chrony or gelatin. Which is my point that super hot loads are testable they are not some imaginary bogeyman that can be thrown about willy-nilly by the DA.
Cartridges for police use are manufactured to do as much damage to humans as possible while keeping recoil low enough for fast, accurate follow-up shots (also for the most damage possible to a human being).
See the issues regarding 10mm, then .40 S&W. See recent changes in ammunition and bores for the more current and popular ar-15-type rifles (5.56 mm, 75 gr. Hornady TAP for law enforcement only, part #8126N, not the other one).
Manufacturers would make ammo for tiny, light weapons capable of blowing human targets to bits, if they could. They probably, eventually will, if no historical fluctuation gets in the way. Then such weapons will be illegal for most people to possess.
As for home-cast heavy lead in handloads, common knowledge holds that hard-cast, heavy bullets are not nearly as effective at causing the monstrous cavitation profiles of fancy manufactured loads.
The issue of cartridges being too hot for defense is ridiculous and irrelevant, unless innocent bystanders in the background are hit by loads that over-penetrate. Then the issue would be relevant.
Good, thoughtful post.
I suspect that there are small, not necessarily high speed rounds, that are truly awful in the amount of damage that they do. Research goes on in many areas in this regard.
There is a very limited range of recoil available to ammo manufacturers in pistols. They have to be within this range in order to market their wares. Any round that exceeds it by a healthy margin will fail in the market because it is unpleasant to shoot and may be inaccurate to boot.
The maximization of damage from a small round is exactly the objectives that have been met rather well by ammo manufacturers with the Barnes bullets and others (I am not at all sure who is doing this as I am a cast boolit guy and I don’t care).
You mention hard cast bullets and reloaders. Most commercial bullets that are lead cast are usually BHN 24 (exand in the barrel at 34,000 Psi) which for you civilians is extremely hard. They tend to be undersized as well in order to fit many different guns and the result is leading, particularly at the forcing cone of a pistol and the first inch or so of the barrel because they fail to expand to seal the bore and rifling due to their hardness.
The reason they are cast so hard has to do with shipping. Softer bullets will become marked and dented if they are shipped, stored (average storage time is a little bit more than one year for most ammo) and moved very much and customers don’t like that.
I belong to several casting and reloading forums and one of the public services we provide is to disabuse new casters of their belief that hard cast bullets are better. They are inherently less accurate and will leave large quantities of lead in the gun. Most guns shoot fine with bullets that are of BHN of 10 (14,000 psi) to 14 (20,000 psi) but their are some pistols, particulary the higher pressure guns such as .357 mag and the .50 AE that are shot at BHN 18 (25,000 psi), but that is about the practical limit.
I will stop on this point as it suddenly becomes rather complicated but the action of hard cast bullets is not at all what you wish in a defensive scenario. They may not expand or they may shatter and fragment, which is less effective than simply mushrooming.
I agree that the aregument that loads being to hot for defense use is moot. If that were the case 12 gauges and .357 mags would be outlawed.
Very well considered and written. Thanks for the info on defense against human attackers. I didn’t know about the 24 Brinnell bullets! That’s really hard! Softer lead makes sense, as most human attackers won’t present a deep target (e.g., torso from front to rear) while attacking.
If you haven’t already seen it, here’s something else that you might enjoy. Mostly about revolver tech. more in regards to hunting, though.
Gun Notes: The .45 Colt - Dissolving the Myth, Discovering the Legend
by John Linebaugh
http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm
That is a very interesting article. I don’t think I would take a .45 LC out to his pressure or velocity range as the slower recoil of the normal 700 FPS 250 grain load is interpreted by my brain and body as much less recoil than most pistols that use a smaller bullet but have higher velocity and sharp jumping recoil. I can shoot the .45 at between 700 and 950 feet per second all day long and it is comfortable, useful for nearly anything that comes along. It is what I consider a “working gun”.
The recoil is quite different than the high speed rounds: It is a push rather than a sharp jump and keeping the barrel down for the second shot is quite a bit easier with .45 LC or ACP than most of the smaller mouse guns.
The .45 rounds, acp, long colt and .45-70 are, for my money, the best rounds ever developed. They can be shot at high speed or low speed and they simply deliver the goods.
The .45-70 can be shot with roundball at 450 FPS for rabbit or at higher velocities and the round is favored for downing African Elephants. All of those functions can be done with either modern powder or black powder and I use both although I have recently switched over to black powder for nearly all my guns but the semiauto pistols.
I am a bit surprised to see the Ruger shot at such high pressures and velocities in the article but we do have recoil junkies out there who like to be challenged. .45 LCs are also shot with roundball at low speeds which are great for training and for kids and just messing around. It gets them into the “SlowSpeedBigCaliber” school at a very early age.
I had hoped to post a very funny video of a guy that was probably 250 lbs being knocked backwards and on the ground by firing a .45-70 factory load in a Contender pistol, but it appears that the video has been taken off of Youtube. It knocked him into the back of the shooting area and he tripped and fell down just before he reached the tables behind. I had hoped to post it as an example of recoil exceeding customer’s expectations. It was hilarious.
I was surprised to see that 24 BHN but it comes directly from a recent article by Glen Fryxell which is posted at:
LASC.us/
This is the Los Angeles Silhouette Club site and all of Glen’s articles are posted there for the free use of shooters.
His book is also downloadable at that site and it gives a great deal of insight into the interior ballistics of pistol rounds. It is probably the best book written on that subject: I frequently look up answers to my questions and he always seems to deliver the answers in an understandable format.
The usual pattern when someone comes on the board is that they are shooting very hard bullets and the bullets are keyholing and are all over the target. The regular posters just smile and write these very words:
“Stop water cooling your cast bullets and enlarge them to a dimension that is .001 or .002 larger than the rifling at the throat and most all leading and keyholing will disappear. You enlarge the mold by using small strips of .001 high temperature aluminum tape on the face of the mold. It works, try it.”
... as is hearing from someone who just absolutely refuses to even contemplate that someone else’s position may have even a scintilla of merit.
Haven’t been in a shoot, and hope to hell I won’t be. In the meantime, learning from numerous sources - particularly recognized experts in the field - and then sorting out and using what makes sense seems prudent.
Where’s your evidence that “there’s never been a single instance”? Have you personally scrubbed through transcripts of every single case out there? Can you guarantee there never will be such an instance?
You’re free to accept (or not) anyone else’s comments. Your perspective is a lot less tolerable wrapped in the $hit sandwich.
Do as you please - no one’s forcing you to do anything.
I’m done with you.
“Have you personally scrubbed through transcripts of every single case out there? “
If you knew the first thing about law you wouldn’t have said that (lawyers have sources of ALL court cases that they scour), but the answer is, yes, yes I have.
Hell, you kids might as well say the following:
“Don’t carry a black gun, the DA will into question your dark motives of carrying a black gun!”
“Don’t use loud guns, either. Carry the quietest gun you can find or else the DA will call into question your motives of carry loud and scary guns!”
“Don’t carry large guns, either. Carry the smallest gun you can find or else the DA will call into question your motives of carry big and scary looking guns!”
Nossir. I will not permit it. You must continue in a long and very spirited thread with CoadToad. In fact, hang on for a second: I'll go create a thread where the two of you can just hang out and pal around together.
I knew you loved me! Awwww, shucks!
Put those pants back on.
P.S. I’ve had long and in-depth discussions with DAs about various topics including this one. They laughed and said Mr. Ass had no clue about such matters. As DAs with many years and many cases involving shootings, they had a few words of real wisdom to say, including that to bring handloading into question would be calling handloading unlawful or nefarious, neither is the case and a judge would toss the idea and possibly the case on such an inclusion. Second, if two identical cases of self-defense were brought, one with and one without handloading, handloading would not cause the one case to go south. Third, in all their years such an idea was never brought forth and is laughable just on the surface. Fourth, cases are brought on fact of statute and there is no State statute that allows for prosecution due to a shooting having involved hand loaded ammunition (hint: hand loading isn’t illegal, immoral, or considered unethical). Fifth, motive must be proved and merely using hand loaded ammunition does not prove motive no more than having a black, loud, or large firearm. Sixth, motive of desires for unlawful killing because of handloading is demonstrably false by the fact that it is a common technique used by novices and professionals alike, unless Mr. Ass thinks DAs all believe and can prove such professionals also have motives of unlawful killings, to include police, military, national sport shooters, and judges as well.
The calculus of stupid ideas can always be proved; I just didn’t think I had to explain it to you.
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