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To: SunkenCiv
Richard III was the recognized monarch, confirmed and reinforced by parliament

Never heard the bit about why treason never prospers, have you?

The last truly legitimate King was Henry VI, who was much too kind and decent a man to hold onto his crown.

The Crown had been fought over for several decades when Henry VII landed, changing hands from York to Lancaster several times. Parliaments did not deliberate and express the will of the people, they merely rubber-stamped the results of the various wars and intrigues.

The Wars of the Roses, BTW, featured the greatest battle ever fought in the British Isles. Probably 80k fought, and around 20k died. Towton.

To my mind the notion that RIII kept the little princes locked up till they were found by the victorious HVII and murdered by him, makes little or no sense.

RIII had been ruling with some success till the rumor got around that he had not only displaced the little princes but had murdered them. This rumor was a, possibly the, major factor in his progressive loss of support.

To squelch this rumor and regain the lost support, all he had to do was display the live princes. Since he never did, it seems likely to me that he was unable to, they being already dead.

HVII continued to himself face rebellions and invasions of the type that brought him to power throughout his reign, often headed by an impostor pretending to be one of the lost princes.

However, the notion that this was some sort of burning political issue by Shakespeare's time is just silly. AFAIK there were no Yorkist rebellions during HVIII's reign or those of any of his children. Nobody cared any more.

32 posted on 12/29/2012 8:31:03 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan

Actually, the rumors (and there were really very few) simply suggested that young Edward may have died - not that he was murdered. There were some notions floating around that he was not in good health. Just as a point of fact, Richard was no where near the Tower during the time it is said that they disappeared. He was on a progression throughout England.

Happily, several pretenders showed up claiming to be the two brothers, making stingy, nasty, cowardly Henry VII’s life a misery!


37 posted on 12/29/2012 9:17:21 AM PST by miss marmelstein ( Richard Lives Yet!)
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To: Sherman Logan

:’) I have — “Treason doth never prosper: what’s the reason? Why if it prosper, none dare call it treason.” — John Harington

Performance of Shakespeare’s “treason” section of Henry VI pt III (includes “take the crown, and, with the crown, my curse”) was prohibited in Elizabethan times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harington_(writer)

http://www.searchquotes.com/search/None_Dare_Call_It_Treason/

(wrong:) http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/1255809/posts?page=8#8


47 posted on 12/29/2012 11:14:39 AM PST by SunkenCiv (Romney would have been worse, if you're a dumb ass.)
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To: Sherman Logan

“The last truly legitimate King was Henry VI, who was much too kind and decent a man to hold onto his crown.”

Who inherited it from the son of Usurper Bolingbroke.

Really, the last legitimate king was Richard II, King of England, son of the black prince.

It’s best to understand things from the perspective of Edward III - everything revolves around him. The other important king is Charles I, oddly enough. Despite his execution, every one of his 5 children, were either King/Queen (in that order), or are the current senior heirs to the King of England.

Edward III
.Edward the Black Prince
..Richard II (Deposed and killed)
..Lionel of Antwerp Duke of Clarence
...Philippa of Clarence 5th Countess of Ulster
....Roger Mortimer 4th Earl of March
.....Edmund Mortimer 5th Earl of March (died of Plague)
.....Anne Mortimer Countess of Cambridge
......Richard Plantagenet 3rd Duke of York
.......Edward IV King of England
........Edward V King of England (killed in tower)
........Richard of Shrewsbury (killed in tower)
........Elizabeth of York Queen of England
.........Arthur Prince of Wales (died on marriage)
.........Henry VIII King of England
..........Edward VI King of England (died in teens)
..........Mary Tudor Queen of England (died without kids)
..........Elizabeth Tudor Queen of England (never married)
........Margaret Tudor Queen of Scotland
.........James V King of Scotland
..........Mary I Stuart Queen of Scots
...........James VI/I King of Scotland and England
............Henry Duke of Wales (Died of Typhoid)
............Charles I King of Scotland and England
.............Charles II King of Scotland and England
.............James VII/II King of Scotland and England
..............James Francis Edward Stuart (Test act)
...............Charles Edward Stuart
...............Henry Benedict Stuart
.............Henry Stuart Duke of Gloucester(smallpox)
.............Princess Mary of Orange (no kids)
.............Princess Anne of England (no kids)
.............Henrietta Marie of Orleans
..............Marie Louise of Spain (no kids)
..............Anne Maria Queen of Sardinia
...............Victor Amadeus Prince of Peidmont(smallpox)
...............Charles Emmanuel III King of Sardinia
................Victor Amadeus III King of Sardinia
................Charles Emmanuel IV King of Sardinia
.................Victor Emmanuel I King of Sardinia
..................Maria Beatrice of Savoy
...................Francis V Duke of Modena
...................Archduke Ferdinand of Austria
....................Maria Theresia Queen of Bavaria
.....................Rupprecht Crown Prince of Bavaria
......................Albrecht Duke of Bavaria
.......................Franz Duke of Bavaria (alive today)
TRUNCATING HOUSE OF SAVOY
...........Elizabeth of Bohemia
............Henry Frederick Prince Palatine (drowned)
............Charles I Louis Elector Palatine (no kids)
............Prince Rupert of the Rhine (no kids)
............Prince Maurice of the Palatine (drowned)
............Edward Count Palatine of Simmern (Test Act)
.............Luise Marie of Salm
..............Louis Otto Prince of Salm
...............Dorothea Agnes Princess of Salm
TRUNCATE HOUSE OF SALM
............Elizabeth of Bohemia (Nun)
............Louise Hollandine of Bohemia (unmarried)
............Henriette Marie of Bohemia (died young)
............Sophia Electress of Hanover
.............George I King of Great Britain
..............George II King of Great Britain
...............Frederick Prince of Wales
................George III King of Great Britain
.................George IV King of Great Britain
.................Frederick Duke of York (no kids)
.................William IV King of Great Britain (no kids)
.................Edward Prince of Kent
..................Victoria Queen of the United Kingdom
...................Edward VII King of UK
....................George V King of UK
.....................Edward VIII King of UK (abdicated)
.....................George VI King of UK
......................Elizabeth II Queen of UK

There’s a few other Plantagenet lines out there that are still in existence. The present lineage is the third most senior line, behind the Jacobins and the Salm branches.


48 posted on 12/29/2012 11:17:35 AM PST by JCBreckenridge (q\\)
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To: Sherman Logan
The last truly legitimate King was Henry VI

Okay, then why wasn't the last legitimate Richard II? Why was Henry IV, "more legitimate," than Henry VII?

56 posted on 12/29/2012 12:33:33 PM PST by nickcarraway
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To: Sherman Logan
However, the notion that this was some sort of burning political issue by Shakespeare's time is just silly. AFAIK there were no Yorkist rebellions during HVIII's reign or those of any of his children. Nobody cared any more.

Disagree. The Tudors were very concerned with maintaining the legitimacy of the dynasty, because of the circumstances of Henry VII coming to power and Henry VIII's inability to produce a healthy male heir.

Henry VIII had Edmund de la Pole, Duke/Earl of Suffolk, who was the leading Yorkist pretender, executed.

While the reign of Elizabeth was brilliant, she was always nervous about the crown being worn by a woman with no children. She carefully balanced the various powers and factions to maintain her own power, but it was a sufficiently delicate matter she felt she could not marry. I would concede, however, that her problem was no longer Yorkists, but other threats to her throne.

Richard III was part of the "Tudor Myth," the story that the Wars of the Roses had been a time of anarchy and bloodshed that was brought to an end by the Tudors and their reign of strong monarchs, peace and prosperity. The Tudor Myth sanctioned the reign and legitimacy of Elizabeth. Richard III was very much intended to glorify the Tudors and the public in the day would have been very aware of how it played into the story of the Tudors and the reigning Tudor/Stuart monarchs.

Of course, we should not overlook the fact that the Myth was just the foundation for one of Shakespeare's greatest plays that explores issues such as kingship, morality, God's role in the succession, good and evil, and many more.

60 posted on 01/02/2013 3:51:08 PM PST by colorado tanker
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