Posted on 05/24/2013 6:35:28 PM PDT by Kevmo
“I repeat, the whole emissivity issue is a giant red herring, and your “dirty window” scenario is simply bogus.”
No it is not...It’s your reading comprehension skill or something, because in the report they go to great lengths showing how they adjust the camera to match emissivity. They waste a thousand words, with graphs and crap. Not even part of the test because none of it has anything to do with the test, it’s all about the camera settings....(why I like thermocouples) I figure they are just trying to say that their camera operating abilities are just peachy....But it did not impress me and should have been in the footnotes of the report, not the main body so these people, these seven experts, cannot have been professionals for very long.
In the first test when the thing melted down, they did not use paint. They noted uneven heating characteristics and they noted the shadows of the coils that could be seen in the image. I saw a number of things in the image that they did not mention, but it was just one picture of a failed test.
The next two tests had paint....all muddy on the details..Can’t see them anymore....want to, but can’t.
It is what it is...I took note of it, I wrote that note here and now you know about it so believe what you care to.
The calculations for energy density omitted the end caps, making it more conservative in its assumption. So, it’s proper to omit end caps for the dummy test.
Oh this gets sillier every day.......LOL
It’s time to take the mod’s advice and ignore you.
Thanks 4 Bumping The Thread T4BTT.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2965392/posts?page=19#19
All that would be interesting if it were true...
There is no need for the three phase unless they simply did not have a DC converter for the (inductive heaters) Not the resistive ones they described in the paper.
They are using Triacs, I did not take note of that before....just missed it...
A triac is a SCR. It is a silicon controlled rectifier. It's used in all sorts of applications but when you use a three channel or three phase (means three triacs) then you have the ability to create a pulsating DC that is nearly pure.SCRs clip portions of the sine wave based on how you set them up. You can hack away the negative portions of the wave leaving the positive peaks and with three you can purify those peaks into a nearly perfect DC power signal that has a bit of a attitude or better said frequency.
I never used anything like this unless I was making a inductive heater, something that occasionally come up when you are serving a manufacturing business that say.....needs something heated up with no flame, like a 55 gallon drum of flammable stuff....or whatever...
Any decent electrician can build a induction heater out of spare parts and get you cooking...I have found that a pulsing DC power is better than a transformed down AC in terms of speed and quantity of heat. I have seen induction ovens using this principle. But frankly I just saying what can be done with it. I don't know why he's using those triacs.
Any before someone calls me out on this again, I will acknowledge that he dumped the triacs in the second test relacing them with a black box controller to which he gives no description. The testing guy talks about it as if it's some sort of great thing that is now single phase yet still has three phase inputs.......LOL....I can't stand this anymore......
This control box ...he went on to say....turns off the power for a time then back on.....yadda yadda....
What's funny is that he is describing the rudimentary way that a SCR rectifier or (triac) functions. He is describing the SCR gate voltage. So they just hid the triacs in the black box.
Is it just me or is anyone else getting tired of the hide and seek game.....I know I am...
Thanks. These things change with time as the authors add info that they had but didn’t describe originally.
Time note.....it may be a while before I can work through this closely enough, so I likely won’t get back to you ‘til sometime tomorrow.
Now, these units ere from the 1970's era...I'm sure things can be done smaller these days, but I think the drive circuitry and water cooling would still be somewhat difficult to hide.
They may well have something here, but I have limitations analyzing this and lean on my strengths as a result. I find it fascinating that they can create what appears to be a large amount of heat, taking the metals they use, ie stainless alloy pipe, to very near structural failure, yet it drives me nuts as to why they use this material.
If I was doing it I would use a larger vessel exterior and insert refractory material to retain the heat as opposed to having a melt down. Then they keep repeating this same simple experiment and they use cameras rather than internal and external sensory gear readily available off the shelf.
Maybe it's just a Swedish thing....I don't know. But then I think perhaps that this is just a second rate carnival show and they are working with a very low budget and little resources with most of it donated or borrowed and don't have the ability to build a decent test jig.
Then on the other hand they go to all these lengths to hide stuff as proprietary yet are using gear that pretty much exposes what is inside. It's more than just a bit mysterious, it's carnival like and amateur.
If I did not know that this had been going on for a number of years, I might have different conclusions but it has.
I may be old school, but I do know that if they are developing a heating device to one day be used for power, they need to measure it using water so that they can convert to BTU’s. They seem to be stuck in more of a metallurgy science and not heat transfer, but I did see a flange on the final test. This indicates a desire to go into that area of experimentation. And that is where they should be.
No cameras except to record the event and verify temperature findings, a tank with a specific amount of water and set up to do ongoing calculations of the actual heat produced. Not just the temperature of the exterior factored into a time formula.
And they need to convert the KG’s and the C's and the rest of the metric stuff into F or K and ounces and pounds for us westerners who get aggravated trying to find conversion tools while reading a long paper....LOL
I await some better data to chew into....maybe I'll get it one day, but odds are that I won't. Right now, from my perspective, this does not look or feel like a legit claim.
Yeah....the (what I will call) warmup coils seem to be clearly visable in the picture of the unit that failed in the initial test that they sorta gloss over. On subsequent tests they painted it and you can’t see them for obvious reasons. Those seem legit....I assume it is used to bring the working temperature up to the melt point of the stuff inside.
Triacs would not be needed for that so they have to be for the purpose of reactor control to keep whatever is going on stable and running. Since we have only a little visibility into the construction of the outer shell and the inner shell with the coils in-between, and we know nothing of what the internal package looks like when loaded. We can’t know for sure what those triacs are doing.
Like I said, they have many purposes and uses and are largely used in dimmers and in control circuits usually used as outputs on PLC’s. The output then drive whatever the PLC is controlling, sometimes with other gear in between.
With the proper control a triac can do most anything to a AC voltage so induction is just one of many and induction can be done several ways. heating water is one, but anything inside this device cannot be copper and would have to be hightemp wire, ni-chrome...that sort of thing...
This kind of stuff can be built into a cylindrical shape using not pipe but hightemp materials. It can be small or large...but whatever they are doing, it must have a great deal to do with keeping the heat going for the time they have shown.
Someone made the comment that if working temp has to be controlled to this degree they wondered how it would fare in a tank of coolant. I have the same concerns.
Seems unlikely that anyone would go to this extent to put on a parlor trick show, but you can’t ever rule it out until such time as the working model is clearly shown to do what it is purported to do.
I am not there yet...
Before I go warthog....I did have on concept that the scr’s and controller could be used for but I have never researched this nor have I ever seen one much less built one.
A magnetic containment field, albeit very small, because of the power consumption, a weak on I think could be powered by a three channel triac.
Probably going overboard here which is why I have not brought it up but since I listed everything, I thought I might touch it a bit.
I think my “e” key is not working like it should based on proofreading of my posts....lol
“the neutrons are stripped of their electrons to become protons” - article
Oh - So that is how Rossi does it. This article adds brilliantly to Rossi’s credibility.
(Head Slap)
Yeah I did not get that either, and I am not a physicist.
Another problem was the minimal numbers of electrons in nickel being used to create copper which has a boat load of them.
I wondered too how they are contained once stripped and where the extra ones come from.....but they I forgot about the secret sauce that he won’t talk about....
It all just bothers me....
Found this a while ago...
excerpt....
The next consideration is “What is real? What is happening?” For NASA Langley, the epiphany moment on LENR was the publication of the Widom-Larsen Weak Interaction LENR Theory. It is currently under study and experimental verification (or not) at Langley. The theory appears to explain nearly all the various and often variegated experimental observations and shifted the LENR theoretical focus from some way of “fooling” Particle Nuclear Physics/The Strong Force to Condensed Matter Nuclear Physics, Collective Effects, The Weak Force and “Heavy Electrons.”
The Strong Force Particle physicists have evidently been correct all along. “Cold Fusion” is not possible. However, via collective effects/ condensed matter quantum nuclear physics, LENR is allowable without any “miracles.” The theory states that once some energy is added to surfaces loaded with hydrogen/protons, if the surface morphology enables high localized voltage gradients, then heavy electrons leading to ultra low energy neutrons will form— neutrons that never leave the surface. The neutrons set up isotope cascades which result in beta decay, heat and transmutations with the heavy electrons converting the beta decay gamma into heat.
The theory indicates several key issues/circumstances are required to enable-to-optimize LENR and explains the various experimental observations, including the often long initiation times required in some experiments. If the theory is experimentally validated in detail, it provides the understanding to shift LENR research from discovery into engineering development. The theory indicates energy densities, some several million times chemical. The current experiments are in the 10’s to hundreds range. However, several labs have blown up studying LENR and windows have melted, indicating when the conditions are “right” prodigious amounts of energy can be produced and released. There are some six or so groups claiming device outputs in the 100 watt range and three others claiming kilowatts. Efforts are ongoing within NASA and other organizations to validate (or not) these claims. It should be noted that these devices are essentially “Edisonian,” the result of attempts at experimental “discovery” vice ab initio design from the weak interaction theories per se.
Therefore, the LENR situation and outlook is the following:
•Something real is happening.
•The weak interaction theories suggest what the physics might be.
•There are efforts ongoing to explore the validity of the theories.
•There are continuing Edisonian efforts to produce “devices” mainly for heat or in some cases transmutations.
•There are efforts to “certify” such devices.
•NASA LaRC has begun LENR design studies guided by the Weak Interaction Theory
**Now this is written by a obvious fan of the tech. he explains the science pretty well as I understand some of it, particularly the beta decay=heat part....but I’m unclear on how the transmutation occurs and this guy mentions nothing about any secret additives.
It also sheds a bit of light on the general history of LENR and the underground experimentation going on since the 1980s..all these reports however, have led to nothing as of yet, but a lot of people hoping that if you dump enough money into it, it will prove it’s self.
I can make that same argument about the hundreds of UFO sightings since the 1980s and extrapolate that because there are so many people looking, it must therefore be true.
I can’t even make the claim that because some of these experiments resulted in heat output, that LENR must be real. For all I know, the experiment was laced with all or any sort of catalyst they could lay their hands on and a few of them blew up....not surprisingly...This author uses the fact that a window was melted to assert that a vast amount of heat was produced. This is the kind of claim that I find very misleading and unscientific.
So if this is what all the LENR advocates believe, then I can say that they are clearly more believing in faith then they are believing in science.
But that is just my opinion and like everyone knows, everyone has at least one.
I blew up my bench in a high school science lab too.....but it was a exploding capacitor. (talk about shrapnel)
Note******* I did not write this. It was a comment made on this article.
http://futureinnovation.larc.nasa.gov/view/articles/futurism/bushnell/low-energy-nuclear-reactions.html
*************************************************** JT • a year ago −
Reading comments I noticed that a lot of people is wondering about Rossi's e-cat, and I would like to tell you the truth about it.
So, first of all do let's do a presentation of the character, Rossi, who has brought the issue of lenr/cold fusion (you pick the name) to the fore by astonishing statements.
Rossi holds a degree in philosophy in Italy and obtained the title of chemical engineer by purchasing a fake degree in the United States at the Kensington University. Towards the end of 1970 he founded the Petroldragon in Italy and claimed to be able to achieve what he calls "refluopetrolio" (a sort of petrol) using a distillation process of municipal and industrial waste. It was actually a trick to charge companies for the disposal of toxic waste storing it in warehouses without proper security measures (due to the fact that, by virtue of its nonexistent method to process it, it was passed off as raw material or fuel). The result was, aside from legal problems in which Rossi incurred, a lot of money spent by municipalities to clear up the areas that he had filled of such wastes.
Now, these are the facts. He recently appeared with Focardi, a retired physics professor who had worked for some years to the study of cold fusion without achieving any appreciable result, saying that, thanks to his mysterious catalyst (that not even the professor knows), he was able to get stunning results of energy gains.
The alleged invention (let's call it the box) is a sort of box containing nickel powder, hydrogen and a "secret catalyst"; this mixture, after being initially heated, would be able to start a nuclear fusion. But here starts the first problems, neither Rossi himself is very clear about it. At the beginning of the story the box was declared producing gamma rays as evidence of nuclear fusion, now these rays became negligible or absent (the energy of the future must also be safe, don't you think?).
Let's analyze Rossi's behaviour in this story:
- He does not want to give details and does not want to open the box in the name of protection of trade secret, without knowing, or pretending not to know, that a scientific publication (in addition to grant him immense honor and an unknown, but very high, number of scientific and social awards as human saviour) constitutes a patent per se, so his attitude does not make sense. He prefers to make the fool of himself by looking for a mean profit.
-He never agreed to do a controlled experiment to test the effectiveness of the box. He spread videos and pictures that prove nothing, organized "demonstrations" in which guests could only watch and biased by methods of measurement (as well as by a suspect power generator always plugged to the box) that many experts have considered very little reliable.
-He purchased a website by the name of "Journal of Nuclear Physics", to simulate a scientific journal and make it appear as the international scientific community agrees with his work and is wondering about cold fusion. Needless to say, this site is full of absurd articles that contradict any physical principle known.
-He subsequently announced a joint venture with a Greek company, then aborted, a collaboration with the University of Bologna, then aborted (actually Rossi had promised € 500,000 to the university to study the box, but has never paid), and various and mysterious clients, institutional or otherwise, of which no one knows anything.
-He made a lot of claims of good results and imminent commercialization of the box but that time never arrives... there is always something new that arises and prevent it.
-Currently his company, Leonardo Corporation, according to Sterling Allan, sells industrial plants for energy production to 2,000,000 dollars each on their site in convenient containers, yet Rossi has never stated that the plants are ready for the market. By the way, these test plants sometimes are in the USA (no one knows where), sometimes are also in Italy (no one knows where either).
I think these informations are sufficient to remove all doubts about the story, Rossi's e-cat is a scam. Let me repeat, Rossi's e-cat is a scam.
I know it would be beautiful if it were true, but this is why the scam works so well, these cheaters use our hope as a psychological leverage to make us believe their claims, don't fall for it.
gbgoble > JT • a year ago
********************************************** What this Article is REALLY SAYING IS:
We at NASA have been using Counter Intelligence to SUPPRESS this SCIENCE and those who have been developing it by discrediting, spreading Disinformation and generally stifling Creative Innovation for years. Again, we still are, we have had this Technology for Years, but out of Greed for Money and to further EXPLOIT HUMANITY. We like to apply Science for Military use for the Big Oil Monopolies that walk LOCKSTEP with OPEC.
See, we like controlling the World thru Capitalistic Manipulation of Energy because it is now a Push Button World and most all Human EXPLOITATION, Labor and Suffering could have ended years ago. Thru the use of several hidden Black Operations Discoveries and STOLEN Intellectual Properties. Just look a the Patent Offices use of Classifications for National Security Interests of American Citizens applications for Energy related Patents that force them to remain silent. While we Develop Weapons and are secretly incorporating them into Space Programs for later use against the Masses of Humanity on Earth for Corporate ENTITIES that will live forever, making us like GOD.
This is why America's economy has tanked, because of this SUPPRESSION and refusal to allow a FREE MARKET of Intellectual Property and Innovations in favor of a few UBER RICH ELITE CAPITALISTS who want to own the WORLD that God actually gave to all Humanity, rather than us evil Corporate ENTITIES, Black Military Operations ad their Industrialized Military Complex. Yes, God created you in his image a gave you the Earth not just for those a live now but for the Eternity of Generations.
Seems God has gotten a bit upset regarding our Greed which is one of the 7 Deadly Sins and is pressuring us to reveal our FOLLIES... Apparently, he wants his People to inherit the Earth and has made a covenant that Humanity and not ENTITIES should hold the STEWARDSHIP. So, here in this statement we are gently as possible telling you a HALF TRUTH to make you believe we are just now inventing and innovating a new Science that may (or may not) benefit Humanity in general. We want you to believe we care for Humanity and are being sure first that you are truly ready for such a blessing as the TRUTH!!!
We are really scared what Humanity might do to us for Concealing this truth for so long and be just a little upset... To know all these years that this TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE from our TYRANNY and GREED.
GEEZE, What a crock of Sugar Coated Dung!!! The Paterfamilias - Set GODS PEOPLE FREE!!!
*********************************** I think that about sums up the arguments....My Goodness! It all makes sense now! LOL!
This article adds brilliantly to Rossi’s credibility.
***No, it subtracts from ExtremeTech’s credibility.
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