The moment that BSA policy changes cross either of two lines, we will leave the organization.
1. When the National Organization tells us who can/ can't be an adult leader, and
2. When the National Organization dictates what we can/ can't teach.
We hold a firm conviction that we must not turn away from opportunities to witness the Love of God, His plan of salvation for all sinners, and the inerrancy of God's Word.
We see the recent policy change as an OPPORTUNITY to show young men that we serve a loving God who is full of GRACE and MERCY.
I am looking for competent legal advice about what we could say in our Bylaws that would help protect the Unit from liability and at the same time declare our unyielding intent not to tolerate sin (not sinners).
If you must, please "Private Reply" me with any contact you might offer.
I need to speak with someone who is an expert in this particular area of the law.
I hope you will help.
You must know that there are new Scouting organizations springing up to accommodate troops that can’t stomach the BSA’s policies. Why not look into going with one of these organizations? The only real problem is that the BSA has lots of great real estate for camps, but if you can get past that issue, leave.
As a FORMER ASM (who left because of the policy change), allow me to point out that the BSA policy change has placed your Scout Master, ASMs and leaders in what most would perceive as an untenable position:
Either you support the BSA policy of acceptance of gays and the lifestyle as just a life choice,
OR
You remain true to the duty to God and proclaim the biblical principle that homosexuality is a sin and against God’s will.
Either the BSA policy is true, or God’s word is true. You can’t hold both at the same time.
If you need a lawyer, my advice is that you find a lawyer - face to face and in your area based on local recommendations.
As general advice, I would suggest keeping a low profile that does not provoke a lawsuit. Even if you win the lawsuit, you lose - you lose time with the kids, money that should be spent on activities with the kids, and focus on developing character. You’re better off with an informal, unwritten policy. You’re better off turning away the new volunteer and his “partner” because you already have a full slate of Assistant Scoutmasters than because of something the perverts will represent as discriminating based on sexual orientation. You’re better off turning away the 16 y/o boy who wants to join as a Scout and talk about sex with the younger boys because premarital sex is not an appropriate BSA topic than because he “happens” to be discussing gay sex.
This is just my opinion, but I hope you will give it due consideration. Everything is limited, even time, and it may be better to dodge this fight.
One possible answer to the Boy Scout dilemma is for us to (repulsive as it is) act more liberal.
By this, I mean that we can lie about our selection of leaders. (”We didn’t reject Bawny Fwank because he boinks our kids, we rejected him because he has the IQ of a slime mold and the morals of mbnbc employees.”)
We can lie about reasons for terminating leaders. (”We fired Mr Fudgepack because we found him using politically incorrect language...and he actually listened to Rush.”)
We can lie in court if sued. (”I cannot recall, and besides, what difference does it make?”)
After all, lying is the centerstone of liberalism.
Let’s use it.
Really.
FReepmail Albion Wilde to be added or deleted from the Boy Scouts pinglist.
Our unit just found out we’re losing our Chartered Org. (evangelical church) because of the policy change. Essentially, their position is that supporting any BSA organization is supporting the pro-sodomites at National and they can’t.
IANAL, but our unit is approaching this dilemma from a behavorial point of view.
No sexual activity/activism of any kind (hetero or homo) will be tolerated. It is not in keeping with (what’s left of) Scouting’s values and disciplinary action up to expulsion is a remedy for failing to comply with the standards.
As for me, I see some of our boys through Philmont next summer and then I’m out.
I will not tacitly or implicitly endorse or condone National’s policy or their board members by my continued participation.
Best of luck to you.
Stick with hate the sin, love the sinner and you can’t go wrong.
1. When the National Organization tells us who can/ can’t be an adult leader, and
2. When the National Organization dictates what we can/ can’t teach.
The BSA already does both. Adult Leaders must be trained to BSA standards or they cannot be leaders. They also dictate how merit badges are taught.
There are some that unlike you puffed up and have made a knee jerk reaction and quit BSA.
The chartered institution must make the decision to leave BSA and flounder or stick it out and see how things progress. You will be told that there are other organizations being formed blah blah but that is pie in the sky.
If you have a good solid troop with strong leadership jumping off the horse into the river is a poor choice
Making pink underwear a mandatory part of the uniform?
For those who advocate hate the sin and love the sinner, how do you broach counselling with a scout who has same-sex attraction tendencies without including a discussion on sex which is verbotten by BSA National? Just look at what happened to Exodus International this year. It crashed and burned after 38 years of ministry.
Yes, those who chose to exit BSA will be leaving an excellent and established program. However, there are options which have been covered exhaustively here on FR. Yes, it will be tough slogging, but then that which is deemed worthwhile, has always been an uphill climb. It is time to put on our big boy pants.
We are in the process of re-writing our by-laws in a similar way. It appears, based on BSA published docs that the chartering organization is the one who gets to make the call on this issue, regardless of what the BSA may do.
For that reason we are having the official church body (board of elders or whatever name your local group goes under) require that we submit or by-laws to them as a condition of renewing the charter.
I’m not lawyer, but that really looks like it gives some protection. In the meantime, it may only be treading water until BSA grants the okay for homosexual leadership, at which point we will probably move to something like the OnMyHonor.net group.
This is from Boy Scout Publication 522-023_WB.pdf, page 9
Available here: www.scouting.org/filestore/membership/pdf/522-023_WB.pdf
Chartered Organization and Council Responsibilities
The chartered organization agrees to:
• Conduct the Scouting program according to its own policies and guidelines, as well
as those of the Boy Scouts of America.
• Include Scouting as part of its overall program for youth and families.
• Appoint a chartered organization representative (COR). This person will serve as a
member of the unit Key 3, will be a member of the organization, and will coordinate
all Scout unit operations within it. The chartered organization head or chartered
organization representative must approve all leader applications to ensure that the
individuals meet the organization’s standards as well as the standards of leadership
of the Boy Scouts of America.
• Select an organizing committee (minimum of three) of parents and members of the
chartered organization who will assist in the selection of leaders.
• Provide adequate facilities for the unit(s) to meet on a regular schedule with time and
place reserved.
• Encourage the unit(s) to participate in outdoor activities and all programs of the council.
The council agrees to:
• Respect the aims and objectives of the organization and offer the resources of Scouting
to help meet those objectives.
• Provide year-round training, service, and program resources to the organization and
its unit(s).
• Provide training and support for the chartered organization representative as the primary
communication link between the organization and the BSA.
• Provide techniques and methods for selecting quality unit leaders and then share in the
approval process of those leaders.
• Provide primary general liability insurance to cover the chartered organization, its board,
officers, chartered organization representative, and employees against all personal
liability judgments. This insurance includes attorneys’ fees and court costs, as well as
any judgment brought against the individual or organization. Unit leaders are covered in
excess of any personal coverage they might have, or, if there is no personal coverage,
the BSA insurance immediately picks them up on a primary basis. Vehicles owned by
the chartered organization and loaned to the unit will be covered on an excess basis
for the chartered organization’s benefit.
• Provide camping facilities, a service center, and a full-time professional staff to assist the
organization in every way possible.
For information about training the chartered organization representative, go to www.scouting.
org/scoutsource/Media/Relationships/TrainingtheCOR.
I wouldn’t call our approach ironclad, but we are largely just buying time till the other shoe falls and there is a viable alternative to jump to.
Hope that helps.
It looks like our Chartered Organization is going to decline their renewal. That leaves us a choice to disband, find another troop to join en masse or find another organization.
All options are on the table. Me and another troop leader are attending the On My Honor Coalition convention next month in Nashville.
One scout, my son is pushing to complete Eagle before January. I have another son who can probably be done in 6 months. We may keep him in BSA at some other troop just till he finishes since he’s so close. None of the other boys are very close.
The other option is to stay active until BSA announces homosexual leaders are allowed or until they try to make us change our policy. On that day, we turn in our charter and wave goodbye.
It’s a hard decision. One of the hardest ever because there is no ironclad answer.
My question is, why would a "Biblically-based, fundamental church" continue to charter a BSA troop or pack?
My 9 year old was in a pack chartered by a Presbyterian PCA church and they disbanded the pack.
On your second "line", I think they have already crossed it. You will no longer be able to teach the Biblical truth about homosexuality. You will no longer be able to teach that "morally straight" excludes homosexual acts. At best, you will have to shut your mouth, at worst, you will have to teach acceptance of it. Remember, the new policy is NOT "don't ask, don't tell". It is now acceptance and tolerance of open, in-your-face homosexuality in your troop.
IMHO, it's time to pull the plug on the BSA. This change was an "inside job". They had a Supreme Court ruling to allow them to keep things as they were. It is said that a fish rots from the head down. BSA's head is rotten and it will just get worse. There is no longer any protection to keep homosexual adults out since traditional morality with regard to homosexuality is no longer a "core value" of the BSA.
2. When the National Organization dictates what we can/ can't teach.
I hate to tell you this, but these two lines have already been crossed - they just haven't told you yet.
In fact, these policies are already in de facto force. You can't tell someone that something WILL be effective on such and such a future date without implying that that "something" is really okay right now. Such was the case with the "repeal" of Don't-Ask-Don't-Tell. Sodomites "came out" with impunity as soon as the law was passed, even though it wasn't officially effective for many months to come.
And I'll stand by my contention that homosexual adult leaders WILL be not just allowed, but mandated by the time this policy change is official. There is now no defense against it since the BSA forfeited all of its rights to determine membership.
I know this decision is excruciatingly painful for you to make, and to let go of a part of America - a part that was but that is no more - but you really need to seriously consider leaving this now-corrupt organization. You may think your troop is insulated against all of this perversion, but insulated pockets of conservatism is EXACTLY what the moral anarchists love to target the most. And you have a target on your back if you stay.
Second, I respect anyone who has already decided to leave Scouts. Initially, I had swung to several alternate possibilities - and I have considered many alternatives.
But for now, I see no immediate reason to flee.
That may come, but for me it is not yet the time.
My interest and the purpose of this thread was to seek legal council and guidance for anyone (like me) who is convinced to stay- and hopefully change the system from within. I am not at all interested in the "go or stay" debate. For me, for now, that is settled.
For your consideration, I offer a quote from a letter written by the Alliance Defending Freedom to the BSA:
“Boy Scouts are charged ‘to do the right thing,’ and this is the right moment for Boy Scouts leadership to set the example and do the right thing: defend Scouts’ honor,” said Senior Counsel David Cortman. “For generations, the Boy Scouts have stood firm on certain moral principles that have successfully shaped our nation’s boys into leaders. The Constitution protects the Boy Scouts’ freedom to promote the values that have defined the organization and to ensure that its leaders and members adhere to those values.”
“Boy Scouts of America was founded upon rich and timeless principles. It shouldn’t give in to intimidation or abandon its values,” said Senior Legal Counsel Erik Stanley, who is an Eagle Scout. “Its leadership should defend the Scouts’ honor and stand strong on the principles that have made the Boy Scouts one of America’s most revered institutions.”
“We write to alert BSA to the legal consequences of giving in to the demands of those who oppose or wish to change BSA’s values,” a summary of the letter to the Boy Scouts states. “Giving in will not alleviate their demands nor will it avoid legal liability for BSA or its many local councils, charters, and troops. It is not legally necessary for BSA to sacrifice its history or its principles in the face of growing threats.”
I do not quote this for the purpose of defending my decision to stay but to set the stage for what the ADF says about the risks of staying. The referenced ADF letter,
"...affirms BSA’s values but warns that an inconsistently applied policy nationwide could open the door to lawsuits. Activist groups could seize upon an inconsistent policy as supposed evidence that the policy is no longer essential to the Boy Scouts’ mission, and local councils and troops could be exposed to individual litigation, the letter explains."
Obviously, our Unit has virtually no control over nationwide policy and its consistent execution. We only have control over the policy that we set locally. For us, consistency with God's Word is paramount. As long as the National policy does not infringe on OUR policy, we can continue.
The BSA National policy includes this (and is marked as having been updated on March 15):
While the BSA does not proactively inquire about the sexual orientation of employees, volunteers, or members, we do not grant membership to individuals who are open or avowed homosexuals or who engage in behavior that would become a distraction to the mission of the BSA.
So, I believe that my Unit must establish Bylaws, or adopt Resolutions that establish a firm commitment to the ideals of the BSA coupled with the biblical tenants of the chartering organization. For our part, we must maintain harmony - both with the stated National policy AND with our church's doctrine. The National policy may change - but OUR policies will not. (REMEMBER: IF a conflict arises, we will join those who, in good conscience have already left BSA.)
I welcome your comments, or advice related to the subject of mitigation of the risk of exposure to legal action while continuing to operate a BSA Unit.
Thank you.
I wish I had help to offer. I’m a BSA adult leader, and have been for a pretty long time. I have a lot of time and effort invested in working with these boys and their predecessors, and it breaks my heart to see what BSA has done.
My youngest son will make Eagle rank before the end of this year, and he and I will both formally leave BSA the day before BSA’s new policy goes into effect.
We will be moving to a new organization that is more reflective of our values, and we believe will be a more positive organization for boys. BSA has become pretty corrupt, in my opinion. This vote to change policy was a complete slap in the face, because 2/3rd of BSA’s adult leaders were opposed to it. BSA, unfortunately, has a lot of leaders at the top of the food chain who do not, an did not subscribe to BSA’s core beliefs...which means they should have never been in BSA to begin with, let alone allowed to rise to the top of the national level.
Sad day for BSA, and for the country.