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Random Thought - How to tell if it is a Religion or a Cult ~ Vanity
02/13/2014 | GraceG

Posted on 02/13/2014 7:14:06 PM PST by GraceG

So I was involved in a philosophical discussion with a friend and the subject came up where they wondered what is the difference between a Religion and a Cult.

Thinking about it I came up with a easy way to tell the difference between the two.

Here it is: A Religion that doesn't let a member of it become an apostate of that Religion without any sort of harassment, injury or death is by definition not a Religion but is indeed a Cult. Also if the Religion in question forces or coerces a member of the family to distance them selves from other member who are not believers, it is also a Cult.

So basically to be a Religion one must:

1. Be able to leave it without any sort of harassment. 2. Should not force you to leave or distance yourself from your non-believer family members


TOPICS: Chit/Chat; Miscellaneous; Religion
KEYWORDS: cult; religion
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To: rbbeachkid
A cult demands full control over your behavior, your associations and even your thoughts.

HMMMmmm...


The Rules

  1. Learn and obey all missionary rules.
  2. Keep your thoughts, words, and actions in harmony with the gospel message.
  3. Read only books, magazines, and other material authorized by the Church.
  4. Don't debate or argue.
  5. Center your mind on your mission.
  6. Dress conservatively. Elders: white shirts, conservative ties, and business suits. Sisters: conservative colors and skirts that cover your knees. No floor-length skirts or dresses.
  7. Cut your hair regularly.
  8. Keep your hair clean and neatly combed at all times in the approved style.
  9. Be neat and clean.
  10. Bathe frequently.
  11. Use deodorant.
  12. Polish your shoes.
  13. Iron your shirt and business suit.
  14. Arise at 6:30 A.M.
  15. Study for 2 hours every morning.
  16. Proselytize for 10 hours between 9:30 A.M. and 9:30 P.M.
  17. Turn off your lights at 10:30 P.M.
  18. Exercise regularly.
  19. Write in your journal regularly.
  20. Follow the "Missionary Gospel Study Program" (31157) for your personal study.
  21. Regularly study the Missionary Guide and the Discussions.
  22. Attend Sunday priesthood or Relief Society meetings, Sunday School, and sacrament meeting.
  23. Attend the general session of Stake Conference.
  24. Attend general conference broadcasts if available.
  25. Avoid all other church meetings unless you have a special assignment or are brining an investigator.
  26. Proselytize as much as possible on weekends and holidays because this is when you'll find people home.
  27. End your preparation day at 6:00 P.M. and proselytize from 6:00 P.M. to 9:30 P.M.
  28. Wear your missionary uniform in public on preparation day while not engaged in recreational activities.
  29. Arise at 6:30 on preparation day and study for 2 hours from the approved books.
  30. Take care of your physical preparation for the week on preparation day: wash your clothes, clean your apartment, wash your car, get your haircut, and shop for groceries.
  31. Write to your parents every week on preparation day.
  32. Write less frequently to your siblings, friends, and acquaintances.
  33. Don't communicate with any friends or acquaintances that are within or close to your mission boundaries, except as a part of official mission business.
  34. Plan safe, wholesome, and uplifting activities for preparation day.
  35. Stay with your companion during all activities.
  36. Do not go on road trips.
  37. Do not leave your assigned area without permission
  38. Do not watch television.
  39. Do not view unauthorized videocassettes.
  40. Do not listen to the radio.
  41. Do not listen to unauthorized audiocassettes or CD’s.
  42. Do not participate in musical groups.
  43. Do not participate in athletic teams.
  44. Do not sponsor athletic teams.
  45. Do not engage in contact sports.
  46. Do not engage in water sports.
  47. Do not engage in winter sports.
  48. Do not engage in motorcycling.
  49. Do not engage in horseback riding.
  50. Do not engage in mountain climbing.
  51. Do not embark on a private boat.
  52. Do not embark in a private airplane.
  53. Do not handle firearms.
  54. Do not handle explosives.
  55. Do not swim.
  56. Do not play full court basketball.
  57. Do not play basketball in leagues.
  58. Do not play basketball in tournaments.
  59. You may play half-court basketball.
  60. Never be alone.
  61. Seek advice from your mission president if your companion is "having difficulties".
  62. Be loyal to your companion.
  63. Ask your mission president for help if your companion doesn’t obey the rules.
  64. Pray with your companion every day.
  65. Study with your companion every day.
  66. Plan your work with your companion every day.
  67. Take time at least once a week for companionship inventory.
  68. Seek to be one in spirit and purpose and help each other succeed.
  69. Always address your companion as Elder or Sister.
  70. Sleep in the same bedroom as your companion.
  71. Do not sleep in the same bed as your companion.
  72. Do not arise before your companion.
  73. Do not retire after your companion. (apparently, being together is more important than getting the correct amount of sleep that your unique body requires.)
  74. Frequently study with your companion the Missionary Guide section on companions.
  75. Never be alone with anyone of the opposite sex.
  76. Never associate inappropriately with anyone of the opposite sex (conversely, they don't mention whether or not it is against the rules to associate inappropriately with anyone of the same sex).
  77. Do not flirt.
  78. Do not date.
  79. Do not communicate via phone or letter with anyone of the opposite sex living within or near mission boundaries.
  80. Do not visit a single or divorced person of the opposite sex unless accompanied by a couple or another adult member of your sex.
  81. Try to teach single investigators in a member’s home or have missionaries of the same sex teach them.
  82. Always follow the above rules, even if the situation seems harmless.
  83. Use the commitment pattern to get referrals from members.
  84. Keep your dinner visits with member briefs and during the customary dinner hour in the area.
  85. Remember to say thank you to those who feed you.
  86. Visit members and nonmembers only at appropriate times.
  87. Do not counsel or give medical treatment.
  88. Do not stay in the homes of people when they are on vacation.
  89. Only write letters to family members and friends at home.
  90. Do not telephone parents
  91. Do not telephone relatives.
  92. Do not telephone friends.
  93. Do not telephone girlfriends.
  94. Contact your mission president in case of an emergency.
  95. Take problems and questions to your mission president.
  96. Do not write to the President of the Church or to other General Authorities. Letters from missionaries to General Authorities are referred back to the mission president
  97. Respect the customs, traditions, and property of the people who you are trying to convert.
  98. Obey all mission rules.
  99. Obey the laws of the land.
  100. Do not get involved in politics.
  101. Do not get involved in commercial activities.
  102. Do not give any information about the area.
  103. Respect the customs and cultures of those who you are trying to convert to your own customs and culture.
  104. Respect the beliefs, practices, and sites of other religions.
  105. Do not say or write anything bad about the political and cultural circumstances where you serve.
  106. Do not become involved in adoption proceedings.
  107. Do not suggest or encourage emigration. (This rule is a bit ironic, given the now-defunct doctrine of gathering the believers to Zion)
  108. Be courteous.
  109. Provide community service.
  110. Do not provide community service that isn’t approved by your mission president.
  111. Do not provide more than 4 hours a week of community service.
  112. Do not provide community service during the evening, weekend or holidays—those are peek proselytizing times.
  113. Your mission president must approve your housing.
  114. Keep your housing unit clean.
  115. Do not live with single or divorced people of the opposite sex.
  116. Do not live where the spouse is frequently absent.
  117. Your living unit must have a private bath and entrance.
  118. You may occasionally fast for a special reason, but generally the monthly fast is sufficient.
  119. Do not fast longer than 24 hours at a time.
  120. Do not ask friends, relatives, and members to join in special fasts for investigators.
  121. Maintain your health.
  122. Eat a healthy diet.
  123. Sleep from 10:30 to 6:30.
  124. Follow the approved exercise program.
  125. Keep your body, clothes, dishes, linens, towels and housing unit clean.
  126. Dispose of your garbage properly and promptly.
  127. Follow the safety rules for all of your stuff.
  128. Seek medical care if you are in an accident or become sick.
  129. Be immunized.
  130. Spend your money only on things relating to your mission.
  131. Budget your money carefully.
  132. Keep a record of what you spend.
  133. Do not spend more than your companion.
  134. Do not loan money.
  135. Do not borrow money.
  136. Keep a reserve fund of $50 to $100 at all times for transfers.
  137. Pay your bills before leaving an area.
  138. Pay cash for all resale literature and supplies ordered from the mission office.
  139. Do not waste money on souvenirs.
  140. Do not waste money on unnecessary items.
  141. Be a frugal photographer.
  142. Do not accumulate excess baggage.
  143. Obey custom laws and regulations.
  144. Pay fast offerings each fast Sunday to the bishop or branch president where you serve.
  145. Pay tithing on outside sources of income (i.e. interest) to your home bishop or branch president.
  146. Evaluate your funds a few months before the end of your mission. If you have more than you need, ask that less be sent so that you can return home without excess money.
  147. Do not drive without a license.
  148. Drive only Church-owned vehicles.
  149. Do not drive members’ cars.
  150. Do not drive nonmembers’ cars.
  151. Do not give rides to members or investigators in Church-owned cars.
  152. Use cars only on approved mission business.
  153. Use cars only within the assigned geographical area.
  154. Be conscious of safety at all times.
  155. Drive defensively.
  156. Wear your seat belt.
  157. Pray for the Lord’s protection while driving.
  158. If your companion is driving, assist him or her.
  159. Do not tamper with the vehicle’s odometer.
  160. Know bicycle safety rules.
  161. Use extreme caution on your bicycle.
  162. Do not ride your bicycle after dark.
  163. Do not ride your bicycle in heavy traffic.
  164. Do not ride your bicycle in adverse weather conditions.
  165. Go directly to your new area when transferred.
  166. Find your new companion without delay when transferred.
  167. Have a maximum of two suitcases and a briefcase.

41 posted on 02/14/2014 5:04:28 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

Yep. Nailed it.


42 posted on 02/14/2014 5:04:37 AM PST by Louis Foxwell (This is a wake up call. Join the Sultan Knish ping list.)
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To: .45 Long Colt
...Christianity is a cult because once you are born-again by an act of the Holy Spirit you are a Christian for eternity.

Oh??

HEBREWS 6:6

If they shall fall away, to renue them againe vnto repentance: seeing they crucifie to themselues the Sonne of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

43 posted on 02/14/2014 5:06:19 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

Yep. Neither Christianity nor Judaism accept the belief that one must be good enough to be acceptable to God. Faith and obedience are the requirements for salvation, not perfection.


44 posted on 02/14/2014 5:07:32 AM PST by Louis Foxwell (This is a wake up call. Join the Sultan Knish ping list.)
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To: teppe
Trinitarianism was coerced in 325 ((Nicea), and settled by state execution by Emperor Tehodosius (edict of thesolonica).


"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned;

and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given,

and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.

Brigham Young - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)

45 posted on 02/14/2014 5:07:39 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: jocon307
People use the word “cult” to insult groups that they don’t support, but I think it must have a much narrower meaning.

I just HATE when stuff like that is exposed!



Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
 
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses
, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).
 
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).
 
 
 
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
 
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
 
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
 
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

46 posted on 02/14/2014 5:09:00 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

Those who fall away were never saved.

“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.” (1 John 2:19)


47 posted on 02/14/2014 5:10:04 AM PST by .45 Long Colt
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To: Elsie

I went to catholic boarding school. I must have been in a cult. LOL.

Here, you forgot these.

Use the church’s domain for your e-mail address.

E-mail your family once a week and let them know how it’s going.


48 posted on 02/14/2014 5:10:05 AM PST by morphing libertarian
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To: .45 Long Colt

The cult of contempt is the most dangerous of all.


49 posted on 02/14/2014 5:12:49 AM PST by Louis Foxwell (This is a wake up call. Join the Sultan Knish ping list.)
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To: Elsie; restornu; teppe; Grig; Normandy
(about 85% of all MORMONs are not worthy enough to enter one of the temples their money paid for.)

I'm sure that these folks we find posting on FR are ALL 'worthy'; right guys??



 

Temple Recommend Questions



1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?

2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?

3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?

4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?

5 Do you live the law of chastity?

6 Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?

7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

8 Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?

9 Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?

10 Are you a full-tithe payer?

11 Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?

12 Do you have financial or other obligations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?

13 If you have previously received your temple endowment:

Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple?
Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?

14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?

15 Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances?

50 posted on 02/14/2014 5:12:51 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Louis Foxwell
Faith and obedience are the requirements for salvation, not perfection.

Oh??

 

John 6:28-29

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”


Direct question deserves a direct answer.


51 posted on 02/14/2014 5:14:46 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: .45 Long Colt
Those who fall away were never saved.

You'd be hard pressed to PROVE this.

How about the ones who fail to endure to the end?

They 'never saved' as well?

52 posted on 02/14/2014 5:16:21 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

Belief is exemplified by faith and obedience. Belief without works is dead.


53 posted on 02/14/2014 5:16:24 AM PST by Louis Foxwell (This is a wake up call. Join the Sultan Knish ping list.)
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To: morphing libertarian

Here, you forgot these.

Maybe they ARE listed!!

https://www.lds.org/bc/content/ldsorg/topics/missionary/MissionaryHandbook2006Navigate.pdf


54 posted on 02/14/2014 5:19:50 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Louis Foxwell

Dang; to whom should listen?

James or Jesus???


55 posted on 02/14/2014 5:21:06 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

not interested. I get my info directly from a missionary


56 posted on 02/14/2014 5:21:29 AM PST by morphing libertarian
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To: Elsie

Let me never be a stumbling block to belief in Christ. There is no conflict. Reconcile the two.


57 posted on 02/14/2014 5:25:03 AM PST by Louis Foxwell (This is a wake up call. Join the Sultan Knish ping list.)
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To: Louis Foxwell
Hebrews Chapter 11
 
 
Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for.

By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.

By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.

By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18 even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 19 Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.

20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.

21 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.

22 By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions concerning the burial of his bones.

23 By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict.

24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25 He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the application of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.

29 By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.

30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the army had marched around them for seven days.

31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.

32 And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were put to death by stoning; they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground.

39 These were all commended for their faith , yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

 
 
 
 
 
Bumper Stickers    "I'm a Christian and I'm a Mormon" Bumper Sticker    Mormon Christian - Saved by Grace Bumper Sticker    I Heart Mormon Christian Boys Bumper Sticker    Another Happy Mormon Christian Bumper Sticker    Mormon Christian Happy Healthy Families Bumper Stickers 
 

58 posted on 02/14/2014 5:26:20 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: morphing libertarian
I get my info directly from a missionary

It is well that you should; for they are EXPERTS!!!


 
 
Professor Robert Millet        teaching at the Mission Prep Club in 2004  http://newsnet.byu.edu/video/18773/  <-- Complete and uneditted

 
 
Timeline...    Subject...
 
0:59           "Anti-Mormons..."
1:16           "ATTACK the faith you have..."
2:02           "We really aren't obligated to answer everyone's questions..."
3:57           "You already know MORE about God and Christ and the plan of salvation than any who would ATTACK you."


59 posted on 02/14/2014 5:27:44 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

Sure there are proof texts that can be used which seem to suggest a believer can fall away in an ultimate sense. The Bible is full of warnings about abiding, remaining, enduring, continuing, etc. It is clear those who don’t persevere in the faith do not receive eternal life. Once we understand how men are really saved, we know that salvation is wholly of The Lord. We cannot of our own will decide to be saved. Likewise we cannot by our own strength remain in the faith. I am so thankful the Bible teaches men are not saved by their own will and decision. John 1:13 clearly says we are not born by our own free will, but by the will of God. Romans 9:16 says, “So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God who showeth mercy.”

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Once we understand salvation is, as Charles Spurgeon said, “all of grace,” it is easy to understand why the saints persevere. Salvation is “not of yourselves.” Salvation is of Him. Jonah 2:9, “Salvation is of The Lord.” We persevere because He is mighty to save and He saves to the uttermost.

In Romans we clearly see there is an unbroken chain of salvation from election in eternity past to ultimate glorification in eternity future.

“Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” (Romans 8:30). Please notice God did not tell His church that He maybe will glorify them, conditioned upon their own action; but God declares, “Your final salvation is already an accomplished fact.” God foreknew; God justified; God glorified. According to the eternal counsel of God that stands. We are preserved by our God.

Read John 5:24, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.” Is that not plain? What is here true for him that heareth Christ’s word and believeth? The Scripture does not state that this one might finally obtain eternal life, or that he shall conditionally receive it; but he has it already. It is his now. And that one shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death into life. The promise is sure.

Romans 8 emphasizes the same truth. “Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?” The point is there is nothing that can or will separate us from that love of God in Christ. Nothing.

Here is another passage from John 10:27-29, “My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me; and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.” Can there be anything clearer than that? He gives eternal life. What could the meaning of this be were one to adopt the Arminian concept? Does God give eternal life, and in some instances take it back again? Oh, no. Hear this: “And they SHALL NEVER perish.” Do you know why? Not because these are so strong; not because they are better than anyone else. But they are in their Father’s hand, and He is greater than all. No man can take the saints out of the Father’s hand. No one!

In II Tim. 1:12 we read, “...for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day.” Notice how Paul speaks. He does not say, “I am persuaded that I am able to keep that which I have received unto that day;” but, “HE IS ABLE.” That is God Who is greater than all. He keeps us in the way of life. He preserves the saints so that they are assured that they shall persevere.

From Michael Horton’s “Putting Amazing Back Into Grace”...

“Those who think they can lose their salvation are not trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation but partly trusting in their own righteousness. Such teaching would have you believe that the sacrifice of Jesus was insufficient to make his people perfect forever (Heb 10:14) or save them to the uttermost (Heb 7:25) [i.e. that Jesus is not enough]. ... such that, in addition to what Christ did, they must join their own ability to persevere to the end in order to maintain their own just standing before God. The book of Hebrews and Galatians severely warns against this and all teaching that rejects the sufficiency of Christ alone (Heb 6 & 10; Gal 3:3). Such persons think Christ made the down payment on their salvation but that they have to keep up the monthly installments (so to speak), a total misapprehension of the meaning of paid in full.”

“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.” (John 6:37). That word “shall” is definite and unequivocal. He promised they shall come and those who come shall not be cast out. That’s ironclad.

Take a careful look at a portion of Ephesians 1...

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Before the world ever began, before time ever began He chose us to be there when it was all over with Him in glory. Our eternal destiny was locked up, sealed and delivered, as it were, before the world was ever created. We don’t persevere because of our own strength, we persevere because of His.

I say with Paul: “For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 8:38-39)

I know I am a weak sinner. It would scare me to think it was up to me to persevere. Knowing we are chosen and kept by His power gives great comfort to the believer. What precious truth! What a precious Savior!


60 posted on 02/14/2014 6:28:48 AM PST by .45 Long Colt
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