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A libertarian utopia
Aeon Magazine ^ | 4-28-14 | Livia Gershon

Posted on 05/09/2014 6:19:54 PM PDT by RKBA Democrat

For a country where the national flag flies from front porches and convenience stores and where children recite the Pledge of Allegiance each morning at school, we’re remarkably resistant to the notion of being governed. In the fall of 2013, the Pew Research Center found that only three in ten Americans trust the federal government to do what’s right ‘most of the time’. The self-conception of most Americans, with their visions of pioneers and plucky underdogs fighting for independence, is all about freedom. The flip side of that vision, however, is all about distrusting government.

And ‘government’, in US political discourse, is ideological. The right claims that excessive government hampers the ability of companies to create jobs; the left that it protects the public from the worst excesses of businesses. The divide is patently artificial: the vast majority of government economic policy draws no fire from conservatives. Still, by setting up ‘government’ as a dirty word in their anti-Democrat campaigns, the Republicans can claim freedom as their brand.

But if you really want to talk about what it means to oppose the government, the place to start isn’t with Republicans. It’s with the one group in the US political landscape that absolutely promises to take our rhetoric about freedom seriously: libertarians. Libertarians really do believe that government is the problem, as Ronald Reagan said back in 1981, and they’ve decided to get rid of it, or at least shrink it dramatically.

Enter Liberty Forum – an annual conference organised by the Free State Project, a group of activists who are trying to get 20,000 libertarians to move to the state of New Hampshire, where I live. These are people who gladly pit themselves not just against the welfare state or the regulation of business, but against military spending, state-funded schools, federal highways and government-issued money.

The Free State Project began life in 2001 with a call-to-arms by Jason Sorens, then a political science PhD student at Yale. Sorens suggested that a few thousand activists could radically change the political balance in the small state. ‘Once we’ve taken over the state government, we can slash state and local budgets, which make up a sizeable proportion of the tax and regulatory burden we face every day,’ he wrote. ‘Furthermore, we can eliminate substantial federal interference by refusing to take highway funds and the strings attached to them.’

Sorens’ views — which focus on problems with taxes and regulations and don’t dispute the government’s role in protecting commerce and conducting foreign policy – suggest a more-Republican-than-the-Republicans sort of outlook. But some people who’ve responded to his call subscribe to an entirely different ideology: an anarchism that sees government as a tool of wealthy capitalists. The rest fall somewhere in between. Free Staters say that what brings them together is a common belief that government is the opposite of freedom.

The crowd that gathered in February for Liberty Forum 2014 at the Crowne Plaza Hotel in Nashua was a pretty good reflection of the US libertarian movement: mainly male, and overwhelmingly white. A few people openly carried guns, which is thoroughly legal in New Hampshire.

One of the first speakers, Aaron Day, a Republican activist and member of the Free State Project board, railed against government plans to expand Medicaid. His PowerPoint flashed images comparing President Barack Obama’s health insurance reforms to the Soviet famine of the 1930s, when Stalin shipped away Ukraine’s wheat, leaving its people to starve. Day announced he’d be running for state Republican Party chair and called for everyone in the audience to seek local office. If I was looking for the embodiment of right-wing libertarianism, here he was, a true believer in cutting the government down to size from within – starting with programmes that benefit the poor.

I meet conservatives who’ve moved towards a live-and-let-live attitude that calls for government to stay out of issues such as sex and drugs

Johnna and Cory Bartholomew, a couple from California who sat among the crowd watching Day, plan to join the influx to New Hampshire soon. Even at a glance, it’s not hard to recognise the Bartholomews as a military couple, despite the pink streaks in Johnna’s hair. Cory wears a crew cut, and both of them radiate a friendliness rooted in bedrock self-confidence. For their 20th anniversary, they visited Hawai’i. This year, for their 30th, they flew east for Liberty Forum, as a sort of final test before moving to the state.

The Bartholomews met as Mormon students at Brigham Young University in Utah. Over the years, their conservatism on social issues dropped away and they left the Church. Cory doesn’t like to call himself an atheist. As an Air Force pilot whose job revolves around technology, he prefers ‘scientist’ – a believer in the empirically provable. ‘I’m not a person of faith,’ he says, ‘I’m a person of “show me”.’ I end up hearing many such stories at Liberty Forum: conservatives who say they’ve slowly drifted from a focus on social issues towards a live-and-let-live attitude that calls for government to stay out of issues such as sex and drugs. But if Aaron Day comes across as essentially right-wing, the Bartholomews seem different. For one thing, they talk more about free speech than taxes.

‘Our kids grew up hearing us talk about politics,’ Cory told me. When they were small, he and Johnna had their three children memorise the preamble to the US Constitution, with its promise to ‘secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity’. Now in their 20s, two of their boys have taken up political activism against government overreach. They’ll protest against police cameras that photograph drivers’ licences at traffic lights, or they’ll hold up signs warning drivers about a drunk-driving checkpoint ahead.

One day in 2011, the brothers donned the Guy Fawkes masks made famous by Anonymous and held up a huge sign bearing the message ‘Taxes=Theft’ on a highway overpass. They got arrested after refusing to show their IDs to the cops. Eventually, two charges against them, relating to posting a sign on government property and wearing masks while committing a crime, were dropped. They ended up sentenced to probation for ‘delaying an officer’. To Johnna, the conviction was typical of a justice system that, despite its rhetoric, has little real respect for free speech: ‘We think “I have this little box of treasure called my rights,” but the moment you bring one of those out and try to exercise it, people are afraid.’

Their sons had already signed on for the Free State Project when the Bartholomews decided to follow their lead. Johnna says that her upbringing in the Mormon Church, founded by families who crossed a continent for their faith, inspires them and makes leaving their daughter and Johnna’s mother behind seem more manageable. ‘If you really believe in something and want to be part of something, then you leave; you leave what you’re used to and you may go somewhere you’re not so comfortable.’ This is, of course, what the Free State Project depends on – people willing to adopt a frontiering mentality so that they’ll leap cross-country to get beyond the current political landscape.

The Free State Project draws recruits with a mishmash of different philosophies, which isn’t surprising given libertarianism’s history. By some accounts, the first thinker to describe himself as libertarian was Joseph Déjacque, a mid-19th-century French anarcho-communist writer. Déjacque’s beef wasn’t just with government, but with capitalist bosses and religious hierarchies. Any kind of authority was an assault on individual autonomy. He even opposed families, with their elevation of husband above wife and parents above children. For about a century, this is what people meant when they said “libertarianism”: a far-left vision of autonomous individuals working as equals.

Then, beginning in the 1950s, a new definition of ‘libertarianism’ emerged in America, defining its love of freedom in ways that directly contradicted Déjacque. The new philosophy drew on the classical liberalism of Thomas Jefferson, filtered through an economic lens that made property rights central. This was the libertarianism of the Cato Institute think tank, formed in 1977 by economist Murray Rothbard, corporate right-wing superstar Charles Koch, and Edward Crane, a leader of the then-fledgling Libertarian Party. Here, the government was faulted not for standing with capital against the people but for getting in the way of progress by promoting socialist welfare systems.

To get a better handle on what sort of libertarianism was at play at Liberty Forum, I asked attendees what their ideal society would look like. The answer, for the most part, was that it would be completely different from the world we know. Drugs and prostitution would be legal. Education and medical care would be market commodities or gifts. In the absence of government support, individuals would be forced to help each other. Without liability protection or the ability to lobby for favours from the state, corporations as we know them would disappear in favour of smaller, more dynamic companies. The vision is so distant and theoretical that even Déjacque-style anarchists and Cato-esque reformers can work side by side in the same movement.

A good thing about working with libertarians is that no one expects to coerce you into participating in something you don’t approve of

James Davis, who plans to move his family to New Hampshire this fall, believes in a libertarianism that looks a bit like Déjacque’s: he wants to free regular people from oppressive institutions. When his first child was born, Davis and his wife got interested in parenting theories that advocate giving children as much freedom as possible. ‘We came upon these ideas of philosophical libertarianism,’ he said. ‘If people don’t trust adults, how can they trust children?’ The couple took over the management of a foundering summer camp in upstate New York and applied their ideas about freedom to it, giving campers as much leeway as possible to make their own choices. It’s the sort of vision that progressives have promoted for decades through democratic schools such as Summerhill, in Suffolk, England, and also one that many Free Staters embrace by home schooling their children and letting them help organise their own educations.

Philosophically, Davis doesn’t believe in government-funded benefits for the poor – drawn from taxation and backed up by prisons and guns. Having worked in non-profit organisations, he’s convinced that in a post-government society people will come through to help the needy without prodding. But he believes that society is a long way off. For now, he’s moving to New Hampshire to be among a community of people who want to improve the world through voluntary action. ‘I suspect it’ll be much like living anywhere,’ he said, ‘but around people who inspire me to be better.’ Davis doesn’t necessarily expect to encounter like minds everywhere, but says that a good thing about working with libertarians is that no one expects to coerce you into participating in something you don’t approve of.

The Bartholomews share Davis’s notion of building a better world outside government mechanisms. As a member of a local school board in California, Johnna recalls being faced with the question of whether to borrow money to pay for desperately needed repairs on a school. ‘I said, definitely, this school needs help, but we haven’t asked one business, we haven’t asked one person, to voluntarily give us one dollar.’

To long-time New Hampshire libertarian Jack Shimek, that focus on voluntary methods is the key to libertarianism. Shimek got interested in politics as a college student in Texas around 1969, a time when young US men worried less that the government would tax them too much than that it would ship them off to a jungle battlefield where they would die. A friend introduced him to Ayn Rand’s philosophy of radical, selfish individualism. Within a few years, he had moved to New York City and into Déjacque’s branch of libertarianism, to argue that the authoritarianism of capitalist bosses is inextricably connected to government tyranny.

Ayn Rand’s Objectivism contained a ‘fatal flaw’, says Shimek. She confused capitalism, a system that gives wealthy owners control over workers, with free markets, which depend on individual autonomy. ‘Capitalists are always in favour of keeping their piece of the pie through political power,’ Shimek told me. ‘When General Motors screws up, it has enough power to convince the government to bail it out.’ Another thing corporations can do, he says, is flood libertarian think tanks and magazines with money: ‘The libertarian movement, originally radical, was invaded by conservative reformers.’ Behind that, says Shimek, are corporate funders with an agenda: ‘They [just] want it to decrease regulation on them, they want it to lower taxes on them.’

Shimek was already living in New Hampshire when Jason Sorens’s idea of a Free State Project took hold. He was thrilled with the influx of people into the tiny libertarian community, but not with the focus on running for office and voting. ‘I said, wait a minute, we’re libertarians, we don’t believe in government.’

For libertarians, Bitcoin is a technology with the potential to circumvent a lot of what’s wrong with the world

At Liberty Forum, Shimek runs Alt Expo, an unofficial series of alternative programmes, with topics such as organic farming and local currencies. The idea is not to confront the government but to live outside it as much as possible. If the power of the state comes from coercion, creating alternatives uses a different kind of power, based in example and persuasion. Though this year’s Alt Expo was sparsely attended, Shimek said it had been a success anyway, because the official programming is now full of these kinds of ideas.

Plenty of people at Liberty Forum think electoral politics is a drag. Carla Gericke, president of the Free State Project, told me she finds politics ‘soul-numbing’. Sessions on farming and gardening – concrete methods of evading government-subsidised industrial agriculture – drew bigger audiences than the ones about lobbying or running for office. Ditto for presentations about technology, which expand the vision of voluntary action beyond government to a global scale. One session is run by two cousins with a start-up who envision a post-industrial economy where individuals trade goods, services and labour online, through portals such as Uber and Airbnb. Everyone is talking about Bitcoin. In the mainstream, the cyber currency comes up mostly as a curiosity, but at Liberty Forum it’s a technology with potential to circumvent a lot of what’s wrong with the world. At one session, panelists wax poetic about paying friends for rides, patronising local businesses, and buying clothes from Australia without taxes, credit card fees, or any contact with the global web of government and private banks.

At another tech sessions, Jeffrey Tucker draws huge crowds. He wears a suit, bow tie, and a mischievous expression, and is prone to phrases such as ‘outrunning troglodyte systems of power’. Tucker points to his smartphone as the symbol of a new society, one with frictionless information exchange, free online education and peer-to-peer lending. To Tucker’s mind, technology is transforming both corporate structures and banking, and politics simply doesn’t much matter. The goal is simply to circumvent dull and lumbering government bureaucrats. ‘We’re going to displace all the institutions of the state,’ he promises gleefully.

By the second-to-last night of the forum, Cory Bartholomew has snapped selfies with a handful of people he calls his ‘liberty heroes’. People such as Cody Wilson, who helped invent the first plastic guns that can be produced on 3D printers, and Thomas Drake and Jesselyn Radack, former government employees who became whistle-blowers, exposing domestic government surveillance and the illegal interrogation of terror suspects. Their stories make Cory wonder if he was naive about the military earlier in his career.

Other delegates flock to an unofficial party at the Quill, a private club and meeting space inside an unmarked storefront in Manchester, New Hampshire. Downstairs, dance music plays and colourful lights throb between the old ceiling beams. Antigone Darling, a slight, 20-something podcaster who’s the host of the party, hands out sex toys to anyone in her audience who yells loud enough: one to Amanda Billyrock, an anarchist who became a libertarian star after she met allegations of drunk driving with counter-allegations of police misconduct; another to ‘Objectivist Girl’, who wears dramatic eye make-up and makes videos explaining the philosophy of Ayn Rand.

Upstairs, a late-night dinner is for sale: grass-fed beef burger with grass-fed bacon and broccoli slaw salad – technically illegal since the cook refuses to get a food service permit. A group of young men stand in a circle talking about their tech start-up, a company that facilitates the use of Bitcoin.

J J Schlessinger, the Quill’s manager, explains a plan to distribute blankets to homeless people who live near the club. He’s also interested in discouraging vandals, not by calling the cops but by keeping an eye on them, maybe asking if their mothers would approve of what they’re doing. Schlessinger uses the word love a lot. He runs the Quill out of love, and wants to help his neighbours with love. The important thing, he says, is for people to reach out to each other in person, not delegate the job to government.

It’s easy to see the Free State Project as a sort of outsize version of the government-hating right. There are issues that libertarians and the left oppose together – high defence spending, corporate subsidies – but they are hard to get at: mostly legislated at the federal level and protected by wealthy interests. It’s much easier to get elected to the local school board and slash local budgets, or to lobby the state legislature against the expansion of health benefits. Republican Party-style libertarians are thus much more visible, and they spend a lot of time trying to cut taxes and reduce spending, invoking the revolutionary spirit of 1776 as they go.

But, looking at the party at the Quill, there’s the suggestion of another American myth: the one about pioneers, often bearing wildly idealistic notions, who come together to build new institutions. Anyone with a passing knowledge of US history knows how fraught with missteps and malice the realities of that process have been, but the myth is a powerful one: if we distrust the government, then we have to trust each other. It’s a notion around which anarchists, Republicans and almost anyone else can find common ground, given sufficient optimism about building a new society.

As Liberty Forum winds down, Johnna and Cory Bartholomew are excited about moving. Johnna’s just seen a panel of volunteers who started charitable organisations to encourage self-sufficiency, and she thinks it’s something she’d like to do. This is the thing, ultimately, that seems to bring people to the Free State Project. They become libertarians because they hate taxes, or fear a police state, or distrust collusion between the state and corporate power. But they move to New Hampshire because they want, more than any of these things, to build something new together.


TOPICS: Chit/Chat
KEYWORDS: freestateproject; libertarian; liberty; libertyforum; nh
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1 posted on 05/09/2014 6:19:54 PM PDT by RKBA Democrat
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To: RKBA Democrat

I stopped reading after the first sentence where the writer think it’s 1955 out there.


2 posted on 05/09/2014 6:23:48 PM PDT by GeronL (Vote for Conservatives not for Republicans!)
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To: RKBA Democrat

If you want to know what a libertopians utopia looks like read “Brave New World”


3 posted on 05/09/2014 6:24:28 PM PDT by GeronL (Vote for Conservatives not for Republicans!)
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To: RKBA Democrat

Libertarians, “”give me full term abortion, gay marriage, crack and hookers, weak nation defense, and open borders today, and I will gladly pay you small government and a return to traditional America on Tuesday.””


4 posted on 05/09/2014 6:25:47 PM PDT by ansel12 ((Ted Cruz and Mike Lee-both of whom sit on the Senate Judiciary Comm as Ginsberg's importance fades)
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To: ansel12

Bump


5 posted on 05/09/2014 6:26:06 PM PDT by GeronL (Vote for Conservatives not for Republicans!)
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To: RKBA Democrat
He’s also interested in discouraging vandals, not by calling the cops but by keeping an eye on them, maybe asking if their mothers would approve of what they’re doing.


6 posted on 05/09/2014 6:31:09 PM PDT by ChildOfThe60s ((If you can remember the 60s.....you weren't really there)
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To: ansel12; GeronL

You both posted your anti libertarian vitriol in less than 6 minutes.

Impressive. You must be practicing.


7 posted on 05/09/2014 6:31:51 PM PDT by RKBA Democrat (Two parties, one agenda. It's the uniparty.)
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To: RKBA Democrat; null and void; KC_Lion

I think if you wanted to build a “new nation” you would be almost better off making it a subterranean country that you basically dig out somewhere under the heartland.

Pros.
Constant Temps
Safe from most Natural disasters
Once you are sealed up the government would have a hard time getting at you.
Access to clean water via directly accessing aquifers.
Might be able to use some sort of geothermal power as a power source.
Access to plenty of minerals and hydrocarbons for manufacturing needs.

Cons.
Not earthquake safe
Need a power supply
No sunlight
You might run into Mole people...

Challenges.
Would need to find a way to grow food
Need to Recycle the air/human waste/ trash garbage/ etc..
Need artifical Lighting system and day/night protocol.

Tech that would be needed.
Thorium Salt reactors with closed Loop Cycles for energy production.
Air reconditioning tech possible hydrolysis tech to use underground water to generate air.
Underground infrastructure that could be expanded using mining technology.
3-D Printing to make parts and equipment.

i think you could make an “underground colony” a Whole lot easier than a Moon colony and make it self sufficient a LOT easier.

Plus it could be used to generate the tech needed FOR a moon base later on.


8 posted on 05/09/2014 6:33:04 PM PDT by GraceG
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To: GeronL

I can dig it. Good test lab. They needed a state with a port city. Pointed to Alaska. Too many people in NH. Easier in Alaska but too cold in November.


9 posted on 05/09/2014 6:33:21 PM PDT by DIRTYSECRET (urope. Why do they put up with this.)
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To: RKBA Democrat

I notice that you didn’t actually respond to my serious and insightful post.

Instead you made some sort of personal attack.


10 posted on 05/09/2014 6:34:15 PM PDT by ansel12 ((Ted Cruz and Mike Lee-both of whom sit on the Senate Judiciary Comm as Ginsberg's importance fades)
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To: RKBA Democrat

Not too long ago a FReeper even suggested that adult-child sex should not be a legal matter. I think it is impressive that the real libertopians will come right and say it nowadays


11 posted on 05/09/2014 6:35:56 PM PDT by GeronL (Vote for Conservatives not for Republicans!)
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To: GraceG
Wow, Grace.

Those are actually some really great ideas!

Thank You for the Ping.

12 posted on 05/09/2014 6:38:13 PM PDT by KC_Lion (Build the America you want to live in at your address, and keep looking up.- Sarah Palin)
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To: ansel12
“The man who attempts to live for others is a dependent. He is a parasite in motive and makes parasites of those he serves. The relationship produces nothing but mutual corruption. It is impossible in concept. The nearest approach to it in reality -- the man who lives to serve others -- is the slave. If physical slavery is repulsive, how much more repulsive is the concept of servility of the spirit. The conquered slave has a vestige of honor. He has the merit of having resisted and of considering his condition evil. But the man who enslaves himself voluntarily in the name of love is the basest of creatures. He degrades the dignity of man, and he degrades the conception of love. But that is the essence of altruism”

~Ayn Rand

"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."

~Declaration of Indepndence

13 posted on 05/09/2014 6:42:53 PM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Qui me amat, amat et canem meum.)
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To: GraceG; Norm Lenhart; TADSLOS
Just don't have Vault-Tec design it.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Vault-Tec_Corporation

14 posted on 05/09/2014 6:43:49 PM PDT by KC_Lion (Build the America you want to live in at your address, and keep looking up.- Sarah Palin)
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To: ansel12

You’re funny. “Insightful and serious” are not terms I would associate with a post that was written before even reading the article in question. You’re just spouting vitriol again and playing the martyr when you’re called on it.

A+ for timeliness, C- for content. I think you can do better.


15 posted on 05/09/2014 6:47:16 PM PDT by RKBA Democrat (Two parties, one agenda. It's the uniparty.)
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To: KC_Lion

I still want the vault with 999 women and a panther....

And a bottle of Sex Panther Cologne. 64% of the time, it works EVERY TIME!


16 posted on 05/09/2014 6:50:26 PM PDT by Norm Lenhart (How's that 'lesser evil' workin' out for ya?)
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To: RKBA Democrat

‘Ayn Rand’s Objectivism contained a ‘fatal flaw’, says Shimek. She confused capitalism, a system that gives wealthy owners control over workers, with free markets, which depend on individual autonomy. ‘Capitalists are always in favour of keeping their piece of the pie through political power,’ Shimek told me. ‘When General Motors screws up, it has enough power to convince the government to bail it out.’

There’s plenty to criticize with Rand, but that misses the mark. This guy apparently hasn’t read her magnum opus, which is very much concerned with “capitalists” buying political influence. She captured that pretty well.

These people sound a lot like anarchists, whose utopian visions are just as absurd as those of the communists. The only difference is that their vision didn’t murder hundreds of millions of people last century. There are legitimate purposes and roles for government, few though they may be. The U.S. Constitution gives a very nice outline. Some country should try it.


17 posted on 05/09/2014 6:50:49 PM PDT by cdcdawg (Be seeing you...)
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To: GeronL

Sounds to me like your beef is with the idiot who posted that..Did you do us all a favor and hit the “abuse” button and have the mods show him/her the door? Or did you sit there and do nothing? I doubt that the boss would look kindly on his website being used to defend pedophilia.


18 posted on 05/09/2014 6:54:40 PM PDT by RKBA Democrat (Two parties, one agenda. It's the uniparty.)
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To: RKBA Democrat

You still will not respond to the actual serious insight in the post, yet again you make some sort of personal attack.


19 posted on 05/09/2014 6:55:03 PM PDT by ansel12 ((Ted Cruz and Mike Lee-both of whom sit on the Senate Judiciary Comm as Ginsberg's importance fades)
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To: GraceG
Mole people? I wouldn't worry too much about mole peoples.

It's the Lizard people that would be the real drawback, like now, but maybe even worse.


20 posted on 05/09/2014 6:55:35 PM PDT by BlueDragon (The world isn't Crazy. It's just the people in it...)
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To: cdcdawg
There’s plenty to criticize with Rand, but . . .

Have you got a version of this guy's "fatal flaw" of Objectivism, by any chance? Could it be that she didn't believe in ghosts?

21 posted on 05/09/2014 6:56:59 PM PDT by Misterioso
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To: RKBA Democrat

Since you seem to be here to promote libertarianism, do you know their position on child porn?


22 posted on 05/09/2014 6:57:05 PM PDT by ansel12 ((Ted Cruz and Mike Lee-both of whom sit on the Senate Judiciary Comm as Ginsberg's importance fades)
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To: BlueDragon

Re: your post#20—see my tagline since 10/10/12.


23 posted on 05/09/2014 6:57:26 PM PDT by exit82 ("The Taliban is on the inside of the building" E. Nordstrom 10-10-12)
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To: RKBA Democrat

Yeah, it’s called Hell.


24 posted on 05/09/2014 6:57:38 PM PDT by RIghtwardHo
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To: RKBA Democrat
You’re funny. “Insightful and serious” are not terms I would associate with a post that was written before even reading the article in question.

You need to be less personal and dishonest, I not only read the article, but had bookmarked it sometime during the last couple of weeks.

25 posted on 05/09/2014 7:04:25 PM PDT by ansel12 ((Ted Cruz and Mike Lee-both of whom sit on the Senate Judiciary Comm as Ginsberg's importance fades)
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To: KC_Lion
....or this....

Wool

26 posted on 05/09/2014 7:07:56 PM PDT by TADSLOS (The Event Horizon has come and gone. Buckle up and hang on.)
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To: GeronL

Thank you for directing my attention to that first sentence. It’s actually very interesting, and something along the lines of what liberals seem to be trying out lately (patriotism=bowing down, “law of the land”, etc...).

Even though I agree with your post about it not being 1955 anymore, Americans do still recite the pledge quite often, and the flag does still fly in front of a lot of homes and businesses. The writer seems to think it odd that people who would do so would be averse to being governed, or he plays at thinking that’s odd. As our government has grown, our culture has withered. The flag once represented the American people and culture, things beyond the government. That was what made us unique. A foreign power once burned out capital, and still didn’t beat us. That was the America about which de Tocqueville wrote. I wonder if it still exists.


27 posted on 05/09/2014 7:09:08 PM PDT by cdcdawg (Be seeing you...)
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To: ansel12

What exactly is the Libertarian position on child porn? Does the person who you will quote on child porn really represent the Libertarian position? Or are there other Libertarians who took that person to task for that position? And do you recognize a difference in the supposed Libertarian position and the position taken by the majority of libertarians here on FR who you endlessly annoy with your paranoid, dishonest BS?


28 posted on 05/09/2014 7:10:06 PM PDT by Yardstick
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To: Yardstick

So, no facts, but another personal attack.

If you don’t know what the libertarian position on child porn is, perhaps one of your fellow libertarians knows.

While we are killing time, do you know what the conservative position on child porn is?


29 posted on 05/09/2014 7:15:53 PM PDT by ansel12 ((Ted Cruz and Mike Lee-both of whom sit on the Senate Judiciary Comm as Ginsberg's importance fades)
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To: RKBA Democrat
Upstairs, a late-night dinner is for sale: grass-fed beef burger with grass-fed bacon and broccoli slaw salad – technically illegal since the cook refuses to get a food service permit.

LOVE IT! My kinda chefs!

30 posted on 05/09/2014 7:17:19 PM PDT by Finny (Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. -- Psalm 119:105)
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To: ansel12

You present your facts first, and we’ll see how that pans out.


31 posted on 05/09/2014 7:17:59 PM PDT by Yardstick
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To: Yardstick

Good Question.

Good luck getting a straight answer.

Personally, I think it comes down to faith, faith in your fellow man or faith in government.


32 posted on 05/09/2014 7:18:07 PM PDT by Zeneta (Thoughts in time and out of season.)
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To: ansel12

“another personal attack”

When was my last personal attack?


33 posted on 05/09/2014 7:19:41 PM PDT by Yardstick
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To: Yardstick

You aren’t sure what the libertarian position on child porn is are you?

None of the libertarians on this thread are confidently sure of what they are allied to and promoting against conservatives, as they push libertarianism.


34 posted on 05/09/2014 7:20:38 PM PDT by ansel12 ((Ted Cruz and Mike Lee-both of whom sit on the Senate Judiciary Comm as Ginsberg's importance fades)
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To: Zeneta

I do know quite a bit about the libertarians and their actions to date involving child porn, how is it that you libertarians don’t know?


35 posted on 05/09/2014 7:22:24 PM PDT by ansel12 ((Ted Cruz and Mike Lee-both of whom sit on the Senate Judiciary Comm as Ginsberg's importance fades)
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To: ansel12

None of the libertarians on this thread are confidently sure of what they are allied to and promoting against conservatives, as they push libertarianism.


You seem to have a mental block (yes, that is an attack), you seem to think libertarians are excluded from being Conservative.


36 posted on 05/09/2014 7:24:04 PM PDT by Zeneta (Thoughts in time and out of season.)
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To: ansel12

Uh huh. If you’re going to smear a large segment of FR as supporters of child pornography, then you should be willing to back up the claim. If you can’t, you should be ready to apologize.


37 posted on 05/09/2014 7:25:42 PM PDT by Yardstick
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Comment #38 Removed by Moderator

To: ansel12

And a D- for drama. You’re not being attacked, but you’re free to continue to play the martyr as you see fit.

Your schtick is tiresome and oddly reminiscent of the sort of race baiting we’ve experienced in politics for the past several years. But instead of accusing your opponents of racism, you accuse them of engaging in personal attacks.

Again, feel free to play the martyr, but I have better things to do with my time


39 posted on 05/09/2014 7:28:08 PM PDT by RKBA Democrat (Two parties, one agenda. It's the uniparty.)
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To: Yardstick

I haven’t smeared anyone, you do know that libertarianism is pro-abortion don’t you?


40 posted on 05/09/2014 7:29:19 PM PDT by ansel12 ((Ted Cruz and Mike Lee-both of whom sit on the Senate Judiciary Comm as Ginsberg's importance fades)
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To: ansel12

Q. Are Tea Party Folks Conservative or Libertarian ?

on Balance ?

I think there may be a problem with your definitions.

I believe you will find that the Libertarians on FR and in the Tea Party are “Constitutionalists” first and foremost.


41 posted on 05/09/2014 7:29:29 PM PDT by Zeneta (Thoughts in time and out of season.)
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To: ansel12

We know what everyone means when they say the GOP, or Millennials, or “youth” are more libertarian on issues like gay marriage and abortion drugs, porn, immigration, etc.


That is completely FALSE.


42 posted on 05/09/2014 7:31:36 PM PDT by Zeneta (Thoughts in time and out of season.)
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To: RKBA Democrat

Again, you didn’t say anything except to make a personal attack.

If you disagree with the insightful description in post 4, then tell me, so far you haven’t, you just make personal attacks.


43 posted on 05/09/2014 7:32:09 PM PDT by ansel12 ((Ted Cruz and Mike Lee-both of whom sit on the Senate Judiciary Comm as Ginsberg's importance fades)
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To: ansel12

No, I don’t know that libertarianism is pro abortion. As a conservative with libertarian leanings, I can tell you that I believe the libertarian non-initiation of force principle applies to unborn people. I would guess that most of the libertarians around here agree with this.


44 posted on 05/09/2014 7:32:22 PM PDT by Yardstick
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To: Zeneta

Do you think they mean the youth are becoming more conservative on social issues, when they say they are becoming libertarian?

Is that why Rand Paul says the GOP has to move left on social issues?


45 posted on 05/09/2014 7:34:04 PM PDT by ansel12 ((Ted Cruz and Mike Lee-both of whom sit on the Senate Judiciary Comm as Ginsberg's importance fades)
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To: Yardstick

Good luck. Morbidly fascinating to see someone who is so consumed,


46 posted on 05/09/2014 7:35:11 PM PDT by RKBA Democrat (Two parties, one agenda. It's the uniparty.)
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To: Yardstick

Nice way to couch what you are hiding.

Libertarianism is pro-abortion, and you should know that before promoting it, and I think you do, it is also pro-gay marriage, pro-gays in the military, and much much more.


47 posted on 05/09/2014 7:37:10 PM PDT by ansel12 ((Ted Cruz and Mike Lee-both of whom sit on the Senate Judiciary Comm as Ginsberg's importance fades)
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To: RKBA Democrat

I’m not the one pushing libertarianism on a conservative site.


48 posted on 05/09/2014 7:37:52 PM PDT by ansel12 ((Ted Cruz and Mike Lee-both of whom sit on the Senate Judiciary Comm as Ginsberg's importance fades)
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To: Zeneta
Q. Are Tea Party Folks Conservative or Libertarian ?

That is easy, conservative, they are more conservative, more religious, more social conservative than republicans, they are not libertarians.

49 posted on 05/09/2014 7:40:20 PM PDT by ansel12 ((Ted Cruz and Mike Lee-both of whom sit on the Senate Judiciary Comm as Ginsberg's importance fades)
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To: Zeneta

That doesn’t address a problem I have nowadays.

I have zero faith in government. Been consistent in that view for more than two decades. But now, in the past handful of years, witnessing the ease of American cultural decline and embrace of deviancy, courtesy its media masters, I frankly have absolutely zero faith in the American populace, as well.

My guess is that I’m slowly trending into becoming a completely alienated non-voter, with no interest or concern left in me towards anything to do with this country. Not a reality I like, and quite the opposite of my entire existence, but it seems my inexorable fate.


50 posted on 05/09/2014 7:42:42 PM PDT by greene66
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