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The macabre side of the AK v. AR debate. The properties of the 5.56 MM come close to violating the prohibition of using expanding bullets in warfare.
1 posted on 12/22/2015 6:54:03 AM PST by C19fan
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To: C19fan

Tumbling terror.


2 posted on 12/22/2015 6:55:28 AM PST by Gaffer
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To: C19fan

Any high velocity hunting round would be worse than the bullets from a “military grade” bullets as many military bullets are meant to incapacitate and create logistics logjam vs. outright killing someone.

Where as hunting rounds are meant to kill as quickly as possible to prevent animal suffering.


3 posted on 12/22/2015 6:56:38 AM PST by GraceG (Protect the Border from Illegal Aliens, Don't Protect Illegal Alien Boarders...)
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To: C19fan
The properties of the 5.56 MM come close to violating the prohibition of using expanding bullets in warfare.

Stupidity. War is war, and all is fair when trying to win.

4 posted on 12/22/2015 6:58:28 AM PST by Timber Rattler ("To hold a pen is to be at war." --Voltaire)
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To: C19fan

I really do not know about the physics, but I have seen several wounds from AK-47’s. They tear out large chunks with them because most of the energy goes into and stays with the body being hit.

I have not seen M-4 wounds, but M-16 wounds that did not hit something solid usually went out the other side pretty quickly.

Maybe hitting a bone or piece of metal changes all that, but the AK-47 wounds were “religious expletive” awful.


5 posted on 12/22/2015 7:00:30 AM PST by wbarmy (I chose to be a sheepdog once I saw what happens to the sheep.)
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To: C19fan

Interesting. Thanks.

L


6 posted on 12/22/2015 7:01:15 AM PST by Lurker (Violence is rarely the answer. But when it is it is the only answer.)
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To: C19fan

It ain’t like in the movies.


7 posted on 12/22/2015 7:02:05 AM PST by skeeter
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To: C19fan

does not explain how, if at all, the M4 round discussed is different from round available for commercial purchase.


8 posted on 12/22/2015 7:09:08 AM PST by School of Rational Thought
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To: C19fan

Though it certainly doesn’t conclusively win the debate, this guy did some great research. It has applied science, empirical observation, and qualitative theory. It’s a tough debate though. Both weapons have good reasons to choose one over the other and many of the reasons are a matter of life or death. I guess one should choose both.


9 posted on 12/22/2015 7:11:58 AM PST by demshateGod (The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God)
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To: C19fan

This is all nonsense. I’ve seen the old movies from the 1930’s and 1940’s, and a battle death is not very painful or bloody. All that happens is a person will clutch their chest and fall over. There is never any blood.


10 posted on 12/22/2015 7:17:15 AM PST by Lazamataz (It has gotten to the point where any report from standard news outlets must be fact-checked.)
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To: C19fan

The vast majority of the complaints about the 5.56 round came from shooting them out of a weapon with a short 10” barrel this will significantly reduce the V1-V2 portion of the equation. The 5.56 fired out of a 16” barrel or longer is a nasty weapon.


13 posted on 12/22/2015 7:23:01 AM PST by BobinIL
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To: C19fan

I’m not squeamish, but I could “feel” those wounds......wow!

I was aware before I enlisted during Nam, that the .223 tumbled and did more damage, by design. But that shattered femur was telling.


14 posted on 12/22/2015 7:26:02 AM PST by G Larry (ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS impose SLAVE WAGES on LEGAL Immigrants.)
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To: C19fan

Regardless of one caliber’s (slight?) superiority over another, the key is a rifle that is sufficiently accurate to hit the enemy, and that is utterly reliable under harsh conditions.

If it won’t fire, caliber is worthless. That’s why the AK is so ubiquitous. Extreme reliability that takes no skill to maintain.


16 posted on 12/22/2015 7:26:43 AM PST by ChildOfThe60s (If you can remember the 60s, you weren't really there....)
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To: C19fan

How about the AK-74? Nasty little round.


18 posted on 12/22/2015 7:29:03 AM PST by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem)
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To: C19fan; wbarmy

(Not directed at you)

This article ignores reality.

The 5.56mm is a medium distance varmint round. It over-penetrates and is illegal to use to hunt deer in many states because it is insufficient to bring down the animal in single shot. The 7.62x39mm and similar.30-30 are far more effective one-shot killers and used for deer and pigs.

This yawing/tumbling/magical BB effect is more associated with the 5.45x39mm from the AK74, which earned it the name “poison bullet.” Like the 5.56mm, the 5.45x39mm is designed to be lightweight and capable of hitting targets up to 500m-600m with a DMR.

The 5.56mm is facing increased scrutiny by our military because jihadists are taking several hits before staying down. The magical yawing is not doing much to stop them.


20 posted on 12/22/2015 7:32:59 AM PST by Azeem (There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury and ammo.)
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To: C19fan

Go back in history to the invention of the Stone M16. It was designed to be an end run around the Geneva Convention prohibition of hollow point AMMO. The round was designed to tumble and it had a light copper jacketing that was sure to disintegrate upon impact. Thus way more bang for the buck. Because the round was light, a soldier could carry much more ammo. All in all a brilliant weapon before the army screwed it up, when they chose the wrong powder for the rounds. And the gun always required scrupulous cleaning.


23 posted on 12/22/2015 7:42:37 AM PST by appeal2 (Don't steal, the government hates competition.)
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To: C19fan

https://youtu.be/hgLetiT8Y0I

64 grain Winchester Rangers .223


25 posted on 12/22/2015 7:45:07 AM PST by Ajnin (Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinion of sheep.)
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To: C19fan

Seriouly ouch-making article, with rather macabre photos, the jist of which seems to be that the M4 bullet tumbles and breaks apart.


52 posted on 12/22/2015 9:14:26 AM PST by Jack Hammer
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To: C19fan

You can’t even get experts to agree totally on something as seemingly straight-forward as terminal ballistics. Everybody weighs the variables differently.


53 posted on 12/22/2015 9:55:57 AM PST by Tallguy
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To: C19fan

“The properties of the 5.56 MM come close to violating the prohibition of using expanding bullets in warfare. “

There is effectively no prohibition to using expanding rounds as the rules are currently interpreted. “Hollow point” rounds aren’t allowed. However, both the Sierra Match King bullets favored by military snipers and the new SOST 5.56 rounds in service with the Marines are expanding rounds. The SMK has a hollow portion under the front of the jacket which instantly collapses on impact. The SOST round is derived from the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw hunting bullet and will mushroom with the best of them. (It is now available to civilians, I just found out courtesy of the linked article BTW.)

http://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/mk-318-mod-0-bullet-matter-call/

http://www.thegunzone.com/opentip-ammo.html

Even some fully jacketed 5.56 ammo is quite devastating. If the bullet’s center of gravity is sufficiently far to the rear, it will tumble on impact even if it is perfectly stable (high twist rate) in flight. This is the trick to producing armor-piercing (non-expanding) bullets that will produce large wound channels and not just pencil through the target.

Civilians also have access to soft point and ballistic tip 5.56 ammo that performs extremely well on soft targets. Don’t hesitate to take your 5.56 deer hunting if you’re so inclined - just make sure you pick the right bullet.


58 posted on 12/22/2015 11:37:09 AM PST by PreciousLiberty
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To: C19fan

That prohibition was obsolete within 15 years of its enactment. It was written in 1899, not long after the invention of smokeless gunpowder but before the terminal effects of spitzer-style bullets (which were developed in response to the higher velocities smokeless powder was capable of driving bullets to) at near-3000 fps velocities were well-known. The truth is, this is hardly unique to the 5.56 NATO cartridge. Any ‘streamlined’ bullet driven fast enough will tend to tumble and produce explosive terminal effects, regardless whether full metal jacket or full-on hollowpoint.


76 posted on 12/28/2015 7:22:18 PM PST by Paal Gulli
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