Posted on 11/10/2019 5:43:46 AM PST by Openurmind
I was pointing to the “hybridization” vs “displacement” aspects of these two I thought you might be partial too.
Both hybridization and displacement presupposes the existence of two species, which is the problem. It appears that the researchers made sure their conclusions fit their original assumptions.
Whoops, wrong topic; please assume my previous reply was the in the Neandertal topic.
The Campi Flagrei eruption may have driven the Aurignacians out of some part of Europe into the Levant.
“Levant” is a term generally only used to deride the Israelis.
First let me say that I do understand your “technical” premise about using the terminology “different species” when referring to neanderthals and Modern Humans. But there is something behind that when considering interfamilial species of the same genus. In this sense I think they are referring to hybrid crosses similar to what you get when your cross a Coyote with a domestic dog. While they are still both of the Canine genus, they are indeed different species of canines. Which by the way are viable and fertile and can produce offspring, just as the Beefalo hybrid from the Bison Cattle cross is fertile can reproduce as it’s own cross species. So while Bison and Cattle are of the same ‘Genus” Bos, they are still considered different species.
I think part of the Mule issue is that we have never given them that rare chance to possibly end up with fertility or viability, we castrate them all as a rule and practice. As for females, there are several cases where a female Mule has indeed bore offspring. But when it comes to even cross genus species hybrids, there are more known instances than I think you realize... So I think the possibility under the right circumstances of survival threat could change these things. But I’m not at all an expert just going by what I have read.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Cross+species+hybids&t=lm&ia=web
I read years ago that Europeans can trace their ancestors to an area in Northern Pakistan 45,000 years ago. The article stated that 50% of modern Europeans can trace their DNA to the son of a man who lived there and made their way to Europe through Russia. A thousand years later, relatives of the same man (the other 50% of Europeans) made their way to Europe through the Middle East.
I don’t think hybridization presupposes the existence of two species. Hybrid corn or rose strains are produced in great quantities and they are still corn or roses. I’ve read a lot of rose catalogs and spent time in Iowa and I never had the impression that either corn or roses were different species. The same cold be said about dogs.
All dogs are one species, and were selectively bred over a long period of time from their wild cousins, the wolf (and wolf-dogs are not uncommon). All corn can cross with all other corn, and was wildcrafted from a single wild species. Roses are a different story -- they are related to lots of edible species, but while I've heard of plum/apricot crosses, I've never heard of a rose/peach cross.
A male horse and a female donkey have a hinny. A female horse and a male donkey have a mule.
But hinnies and mules can't have babies of their own. They are sterile because they can't make sperm or eggs.
They have trouble making sperm or eggs because their chromosomes don't match up well. And, to a lesser extent, because of their chromosome number.
A mule gets 32 horse chromosomes from mom and 31 donkey chromosomes from dad for a total of 63 chromosomes. (A horse has 64 chromosomes and a donkey has 62).
Chimeras, Mosaics, and Other Fun Stuff | June 20, 2007 | Monica Rodriguez
Once in a while there are offspring (poorly documented, anecdotal evidence, and probably not yet genetically tested) but the offspring will be either a donkey (with a donkey mother) or a horse (with a horse mother), rather than a hybrid offspring. Similarly, the chimp (and bonobo I suppose), gibbon, gorilla, and orangutan (and perhaps the cryptoanimal the orang-pendek) have 24 chromosome pairs; humans have 23 chromosome pairs. Reportedly/supposedly there have been attempts by some infamous dictators to create a chimp-human hybrid and then mass-produce them for use in a fast-maturing hybrid ape-man army. Bupkis.
My original question was about whether Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens were of different species. If they could ‘bross-breed’ with resulting offspring, then, they were of the same species.
Found one:
...Lee Millon, cytogeneticist at the veterinary genetics laboratory at the University of California at Davis, carried out genetic tests on Kule Mule in 2007. He said the animal's genetic makeup would have probably caused the physical malformation.
"It's like a jigsaw puzzle," Millon said. "It's made up of pieces of donkey and horse."
Millon said that many owners keeping only horses, mules or donkeys added to the popular belief that mules were generally infertile. He said that births to mules were not impossible, just highly unlikely.
Mules are a hybrid of a female horse, which has 64 chromosomes, and a male donkey, which has 62 chromosomes. This leaves female mules with 63 chromosomes, which cannot be split evenly to produce a fertile egg.
Female mules do, however, produce mosaic eggs that contain an even number of chromosomes, but those eggs rarely contain a chromosome half-set that is complementary to another half-set from a male sperm cell.
But Kule Mule beat the odds. Millon said the animal's genome included cells of 63 chromosomes and cells of 64 chromosomes, even though further tests were not carried out because of monetary constraints and because a sample from Kule Mule's father, a donkey jack, was not available.
Colorado miracle mule foal lived short life, but was well-loved
See, the problem is, the shuffling of the chromosome pairs will result in the leaving out of 2 chromosomes, or the inclusion of 1 extra, or 2 extra (1,2,1, total of 4 possible outcomes).
I wholeheartedly agree. Also, the fact that Neandertal DNA has been sequenced now and has shown the overlap is substantial, and despite the relatively few specimen sequences, turns out many of us have detectable Neandertal variants -- generally as plentiful as the genes we get from our g-g-g-g-grandcestors.
Every once in a while the angry arrogant crackpot Ted Holden shows up under yet another FR nick and pushes the "Neandertal was halfway between humans and chimps" BS, and/or the Australian comic book that claims that Neandertal was a demon-like ape that hunted our ancestors until they finally killed 'em off. No movie deal (yet) for that ridiculous crap.
I lost track of this yesterday and then got pulled away. I really do understand the mechanics of it. Got to run out of town this AM, but will try to get back to this discussion.
Have a safe trip!
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